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RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 7:17:43 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

Life is valuable. Again, an extension and compliment of the survival function necessary for life itself.


Isn't that a bit circular, though. Life is valuable because valuing it promotes life. Is Earth some how more objectively valuable than Mars because Earth has life and Mars doesn't?

At heart, I think the belief that life is valuable (which I share) is an unprovable axiom--a statement of faith rather than empiricsm.


Our values must be circular, or we'd have the null event- nothing matters, and we wouldn't be alive. Is there any value system that's noncircular?

You're right, though. The circular nature of it, when thought into, can be a bit demeaning. Perhaps a reason for people to add a spoke into the circle, making it a bit harder to see through? (i.e., God)

However, if it wasn't circular, there would be no meaning and we wouldn't act, dying out due to apathy. Our biology forces us to feel a value.

(in reply to dcnovice)
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RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 7:20:56 PM   
dcnovice


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Status: offline 		So what if we didn't act? So what if we died out? Species die out all the time.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 162
RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 7:24:28 PM   
CuriousLord


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Status: offline 		Yup. Die out. Nothing would really change in the universe except for less human lives on this planet. It'll still be here.

PS- I have to run again.. bah. I'll try to catch up a bit later.

< Message edited by CuriousLord -- 12/30/2007 7:27:48 PM >

(in reply to dcnovice)
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RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 7:27:31 PM   
dcnovice


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Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline 		If it doesn't matter whether we die out, why base our morality on what's detrimental to the species? For that matter, why morality at all? Why not let whoever survives survive?

(At this point, you're probably wishing I'd die out, but no such luck.)

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 164
RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 7:30:25 PM   
CuriousLord


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Status: offline 		There's morality because there's humans. There's humans because we evolved. We evolved because chemicals interacted in that way. They didn't interact in a way that formed apathetic beings because, well, let's face it.. it happens. And those people just don't tend to reproduce as much, and those are only the relatively apathetic beings.. the truly apathetic ones wouldn't eat and just die of starvation.

Morality is just the observation of things that gives us will to move, ya know? Why would there need to be a God for that? :P


(Hah, no, these questions are rather easy to answer. I'm just waiting for you to see that you're chasing your tail.)

PS- Though I do have to run, just saw the reply and wanted to answer it before jetting.

< Message edited by CuriousLord -- 12/30/2007 7:31:01 PM >

(in reply to dcnovice)
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RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 7:32:29 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
A single murder here or there probably isn't detrimental to the species.
Indeed, it may be beneficial. The existence of Satan and his minions is beneficial to the species.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
So is it moral?
That depends on the circumstances. Satan and his minions may discuss whether it is moral, but do not truly care.

< Message edited by Rule -- 12/30/2007 7:33:02 PM >

(in reply to dcnovice)
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RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 7:34:31 PM   
dcnovice


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Status: offline 		I don't think there necessarily needs to be a God for morality, but I think one does have to be willing to believe in ultimately unprovable tenets: Life is good, people have rights, justice is better than injustice. If nothing else, you need to believe that our existence/survival is better than the alternative.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 167
RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 7:40:49 PM   
country89


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Status: offline 		I believe that there needs to be a God for people to have morals. You wouldnt feel guilty or think twice about doing something just because of your conscience. 

(in reply to dcnovice)
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RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 7:43:21 PM   
Shawn1066


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quote:

ORIGINAL: country89

I believe that there needs to be a God for people to have morals. You wouldnt feel guilty or think twice about doing something just because of your conscience. 


Oh, so then I suppose all Atheists are bound to murder people?  Religion doesn't make you do good things.  In fact, religion has been known to do quite a few evil, immoral things.  The Inquisition, The Crusades, Ritual Murders in India, Honour Killings in the Middle East, Cannibalism, and various things.

I love Religion, and think it does certainly help some people live better lives and aspire to higher goals, but I just don't buy that concept.  That's just my opinion, though

< Message edited by Shawn1066 -- 12/30/2007 7:49:27 PM >

(in reply to country89)
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RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 7:46:34 PM   
country89


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Status: offline 		Thats true its just like whites saying mexicans are worthless and taking over the whites jobs or all blacks live off welfare it just depends on the person. Theres good and bad in everybody.

(in reply to Shawn1066)
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RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 7:49:05 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

I don't think there necessarily needs to be a God for morality, but I think one does have to be willing to believe in ultimately unprovable tenets: Life is good, people have rights, justice is better than injustice. If nothing else, you need to believe that our existence/survival is better than the alternative.


Ultimately unprovable? My friend, I can prove to you that life is good is a necessary biological imparative for life by simply showing you that a bunch of suicidal and/or murderous people on an island don't exactly form a viable society. It's scientifically demonstratable!

But, you're right. You have to believe that your survival is better than the alternative, and that's just nailed into us by our biology.. it's hardwired into us. You can take someone who grows up alone on an island with no knowledge of God or religion or other people and show that he needs neither to desire food, water, shelter, and display other tendancies to live.

It's all very provable.

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 171
RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 7:51:34 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: country89

I believe that there needs to be a God for people to have morals. You wouldnt feel guilty or think twice about doing something just because of your conscience.


Exactly why I don't like religious idealogy behind morality. It's ultimately and rather quickly selfish. They're doing it for their damn imaginary reward and for props with an all-powerful being, not just because they happen to enjoy doing good. Hopefully, the enjoyment for being good kicks in, but that's not their orginial reason.

Me? When I help someone, it's not because I think I'll get a comfier bed in some afterlife.. it's because I legitmately just want to help them. I really think that's the more noble way to live.

PS- To be fair, above, I mentioned someone who's moral for purely religious reasons.. I don't mean all religious people, as people do have reasons and a life outside of their religion.

< Message edited by CuriousLord -- 12/30/2007 7:57:26 PM >

(in reply to country89)
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RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 7:56:39 PM   
Shawn1066


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: country89

I believe that there needs to be a God for people to have morals. You wouldnt feel guilty or think twice about doing something just because of your conscience.


Exactly why I don't like religious idealogy behind morality. It's ultimately and rather quickly selfish. They're doing it for their damn imaginary reward and for props with an all-powerful being, not just because they happen to enjoy doing good. Hopefully, the enjoyment for being good kicks in, but that's not their orginial reason.

Me? When I help someone, it's not because I think I'll get a comfier bed in some afterlife.. it's because I legitmately just want to help them. I really think that's the more noble way to live.



Well, while I understand your reasoning...  Being good is all that matters, regardless of your reasoning.  If religion makes one person choose the morally right choice over the morally wrong one...then it really can't be a bad thing.  Who cares about their reasoning?

I just don't like people saying that people wouldn't be good without religion. :-p

< Message edited by Shawn1066 -- 12/30/2007 7:57:59 PM >

(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 173
RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 7:57:09 PM   
country89


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Joined: 9/9/2007
Status: offline 		I help some one because i want to. I wasnt raised in a church going family. Yes I do believe in God ,but no I dont help somebody because ill get a nice place in heaven, I do it because I like seeing them smile and maybe just maybe theyll help someone else with the same amout of kindness ive showed them.

(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 174
RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 8:01:15 PM   
dcnovice


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Joined: 8/2/2006
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quote:

My friend, I can prove to you that life is good is a necessary biological imparative for life by simply showing you that a bunch of suicidal and/or murderous people on an island don't exactly form a viable society. It's scientifically demonstratable!


You'd prove that suicidal or murderous people aren't the best choice for populating an island, but that's a far cry from proving that it's somehow morally better for them to live than to die.

On the species level, you can probably prove that certain behaviors further the survival of the species, but that simply a scientific rather than moral fact without out the belief (for which I can see no empirical evidence) that there's a moral value to the survival of the species.

I know I seem like I'm chasing my tail, but I'm not. I'm doing two things. I'm procrastinating from my housework. And I'm remembering the abortion thread. I have a tough time believing that your opposition to abortion truly arose from scientific concern about the survival of the species. My hunch (which could be entirely wrong) is that you felt, deep down, in your bones, in a way that science, for all its wonders, cannot capture, that abortion is wrong because it destroys something morally valubale: a human life.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 175
RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 8:01:25 PM   
CuriousLord


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Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline 		Reasoning seems to matter a lot. In court, reasoning is the difference between self-defense and wanting to kill someone else for fun. In love, reasoning is the difference between marrying someone for money and marrying them for love. (Etc.)

If all you care about is someone's actions, and you can be assured that they'll always see pleasing the imaginary all-powerful being as paramount, then I suppose religion is an effective control. If they ever wise up or decide that a more immediate reward is better (such as priests whose sex drive momentarily overpowers their idea of an afterlife), you can have some disasterous results (poor altar boys).
It strikes me as distasteful; I suppose I'd have to have longer to fully elaborate in a suitable manner on as to why.

(in reply to Shawn1066)
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RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 8:30:12 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

(Yes, while I am an athiest now, I've also been knighted in the Catholic Church and studied religion formally for four years. While I consider it to be an utter waste of time that could've been spent studying other things, it can be entertaining to discuss. :P)


I have studied religion for quite some time and I have found that when someone needs to verify their authority of the knowledge, that they are likely on uncertain ground. Supposedly being Knighted and what have you, gives you no more insight into the beliefs, than anyone else. You may know more about the religion, but not necessarily about the beliefs.

To the OP, rather than speak about your faith to you, I suggest that if you treat your sub as a subordinate in mundane things, that the D/s will develop fine. There are many that have D/s relationships of a non-sexual nature.

Live well,
Orion

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 177
RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 8:32:21 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Can you prove love exists using scientific methods?


quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
quote:

Point being, if there's a God, we should, at some point, be able to experimentally demonstrate it.


Perhaps we just haven't reached that point yet?


Then that could be another point of discussion. I just wanted to quickly shoot down the notion that something can exist without being scientifically verifiable.

(As always, please pardon me if my tone sounds aggressive. I'm trying to be quick to the point, not mean.)


_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 178
RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 8:47:25 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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Status: offline 		Now a comment about the religious stuff. Take all of what Jesus said from the bible, you know all the stuff in read letters, and study just that. Then think about those teachings and remember John 14:23 " 23Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him."

Paul did his work well. I also recommend looking into some of the original aramaic, because Jerome did not do his work well, or maybe he did.

< Message edited by OrionTheWolf -- 12/30/2007 8:48:30 PM >

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 179
RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 8:50:48 PM   
dcnovice


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Status: offline 		<psa>

John 14:23 (New International Version)

23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

</psa>


_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 180
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