RE: Christianity and BDSM (Full Version)

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eyesopened -> RE: Christianity and BDSM (1/2/2008 1:31:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hermione83

quote:

As a Priest once told me in confession "Fornication is not breaking one of Gods commandments. The bible speaks of fornication but does not label the action as a sin."


What a shame that you were given such very, very POOR shrift. I would expect a minister to know such simple things, such as -

1 Cor 6
8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

which is repeated over and over in the Bible (that fornicators, the sexually immoral, adulterors etc will not inherit the Kingdom of God). Not to mention there are some references to sex = marriage. Therefore, if you have sex, you are married in spirit in God's eyes. So anyone else you have sex with WOULD be considered adultery, which you at least admitted was a sin. I don't believe anything strictly between a married couple, sexually, could be wrong - as the marriage bed is undefiled, it says in the Bible. Such as sodomy, etc, as you mentioned were meant for sanitary and disease protection more than anything, imho. As long as it was in the context of marriage, and doing nothing to damage the "temple" I think you're golden. Otherwise, if you're burning for each other... well, get married, and enjoy each other then. Before that, get to know each other, learn what you want one day, but don't partake in any sexual acts before that - if you want to follow God.

PS: Sin is not something that is just a bad idea or not recommended. There are a few things like that in the Bible, but fornication, nor being a "drunkard" are some of them. Maybe some of Solomon's ideas of wisdom would be along the lines of what you say. Sin will keep you out of heaven and is a death sentence. It says they will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Pretty serious stuff..


Paul was notorious and even bragged how he changed his message and its delivery depending upon the people and times he was addressing.  Christ did not say these things.  Paul did.  Most "Christians" are at best Paulines mixed with a bit of Constantinians but nowadays its difficult to find Christians, in my opinion.  The way i look at it, Jesus trumps Paul and Constantine.  Fornication wasn't mentioned in the Ten Commandments, just adultery.  In a time and place where polygamy was allowed, why would anyone have sex outside of marriage?  Again, it is the motive, not the act.  What then is fornication as opposed to sex?  The Bible is not a Chinese menu where you get to pick one from column A and two from column B.  Either you obey all the laws or you are breaking all the laws.  If go to church on Sunday but work for profit on Saturday then you break the commandment of the Sabbath.  Constantine only wanted to hedge his bets with his sun-god and changed the worship day to Sunday so just in case he was wrong about this christian thing he wouldn't offend his sun-god. 

Basically, Jesus said to mind your own business, be the best person you can be, quit worrying about what other people are doing, stop making God such an old meanie that you actually drive folks away from Him, and find ways to love the unlovable.  Ya know?  That sounds pretty darn good to me.



CuriousLord -> RE: Christianity and BDSM (1/2/2008 2:04:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

So explain the working of the sub conscious mind. Explain the interaction of the ego and super ego. Can these things truly be identified? Or are they ways to explain something that cannot be touched, heard, seen, tasted, or felt? There are plenty of things that exist, that science cannot prove or disprove, yet. It just means there is a possibility of them existing. The difference between an open and closed mind, is the allowance of possibility.

I am sure things will change as time passes by. They always do.


Explain the working of the mind? My friend, I can not explain to you the workings of a computer! Can you? I mean, sure, I know what the different parts, in general, do. I have a working knowledge of circuits and of digital logic. But, when it gets down to it, I don't have the schematics for each piece. I get the general concepts.. and I know there's no magic behind it. It's all very real, very function stuff.

The human mind, though? No, there's nothing magical about it. It's just like the computer, only, let's say a computer from the year 2500*, when technology advances enough that the complexity of circuits will begin to approach that of the human mind. I could tell you that, in that future, there will be no magic nor miracles nor voodoo involved in the construction of a computer; it will simply be an incredibly complex system with seemingly miracleous capablity.

Or have I ranted on, and this wasn't a point of disagreement at all? I am beat at the moment, so if you would excuse my bluntness, are you one for the inclination that biology is somehow magical, or was your mention of the human mind trying to other ends?

*Not a prediction on the date at which computer technology will rival the human mind in processing power. Too tired to care for that sort of statistic.

PS: Side tracked thought.. people seem to love to call complex things "divine". Hah, the Greeks and their reverence of lighting before Zues.

But, on a somewhat more serious note, how many people do you think you could've had bow before you as a God if you had a working F-15 with fuel and such back two-thousand years ago? It would be magic! It would be divine! Not just complex, mind you, but magical!



thornhappy -> RE: Christianity and BDSM (1/2/2008 8:03:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hermione83

I didn't mean people should get married just to have sex. Obviously, I meant if they love each other, and they can't stop thinking about sex it might be time to make the lifetime commitment and get married. And if not, then put yourself in a situation where it isn't such a tempation all the time until you can. And what was wrong with the 50s, anyway?

If you lived in the 50's, you probably wouldn't have gone to college.  If you had, it'd been for the "Mrs." degree [not saying that 100% did, but this was the predominant view].  I think the Ivies were still sex-segregated, you couldn't have had your own credit history if you were married, not many opportunities for work except for teaching, nursing, stewardesses,  secretarial, etc.  And a host of other things you can find in history books. 

It's not the paradise some would have ya believe.

thornhappy



RCdc -> RE: Christianity and BDSM (1/2/2008 8:36:45 AM)

Wow - So much missed!  I am doing a fast reply.
 
Morality is not based on empathy.  All morals relate to ones own belief - religious or not.  We only decide on morals which are good and right in our own little worlds or that which has been 'kicked' into us.  Morality is not religious.   Morality is based on our selfishness.
 
'Homosexual' was not used in the NT bible (apart from in a positive way).  It is a misrepresented interpretation of a word which basically refered to pedophiles or sexual slave dealers/pimps or those that slept with such (such as a hetrosexual person who abuses their position over another)
 
Both 'adultery' and 'fornication' are also misunderstood words - the first being significant for females, the latter is again abusing sexuality.  The first is specific to marriage or 'cheating' on ones partner, the latter is not dictated as marriage but rather pedphillia, incest and rape and non consensual activities.
 
The centre of the universe is oneself.
 
Faith is not blind.  Faith is fulfilling and allows for that which cannot be proved, making it far more open minded and open-eyed than science, which basis only on presentable facts as dictated here.  I do find it strange that people find those with 'faith' in something as blinded by it.  Just because one has the faith they can achieve a goal, does not mean they do not see the pitfalls or mountains should there be some.
 
Yeah - that is all I have to say for now.
the.dark.






YourhandMyAss -> RE: Christianity and BDSM (1/2/2008 8:11:46 PM)

or really just anything. No matter what you say someone somewhere will be offended you said it, and no matter what you don't say someone somewhere will probably be offended you DIDN'T say it.

Can't really avoid offending people.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
quote:

I posted in this section so as not to offend those who might bristle at a "religious" thread in the regular bdsm section of  CollarMe.


Good luck with that [;)] there are some who seemingly can not help being offended at the mention of faith.



dcnovice -> RE: Christianity and BDSM (1/6/2008 2:09:04 PM)

quote:

you can prove the existence of the thought process I'm using,


We can prove the existence of the thought process, yes, but I'm still not sure we can prove the central axiom: Everything that exists must be scientifically verifiable.

We have no, after all, what may exist without our knowing it. As I pointed out earlier, x-rays are (I think) a relatively recent discovery, yet they presumably existed before we could verify them. And don't scientists hypothesize about the exist of dark matter that we can't verify?

It seems very limited to shrink to existence to what this modest species can verify.



dcnovice -> RE: Christianity and BDSM (1/6/2008 2:13:15 PM)

quote:

If you'd humor me and imagine a world, maybe a million years down the road, in which humanity is hugely advanced. Scientists in this world can tell you the exact interaction and state of the universe flawless (in other words, they have collosial computing power and perfect laws). If, at this point, the entire universe can be flawlessly described in a model which doesn't include a diety.. then does this system not, by definition, disprove a diety?


Well, even Richard Dawkins says you can never totally disprove the existence of a deity, but I agree it would seem unlikely in your scenario.



SL4V3M4YB3 -> RE: Christianity and BDSM (1/6/2008 2:14:16 PM)

No one has scientifically proven my big toe exists but I know it does.[8|]



dcnovice -> RE: Christianity and BDSM (1/6/2008 2:25:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
quote:

it's my point that the notion of a God makes an assumption that something out there exists


Fwiw, I'd say I assume it's a possibility that God exists. I don't claim sure knowledge of it. Being a Unitarian, I don't claim sure knowledge of much of anything. [:)]


Perhaps the best stance of all!


Well, I like to think so. [:)]

quote:

But isn't that agnostic, or is it somehow different?


For me, it's definitely agnostic. I can't prove God exists; indeed, I have major doubts. But I'm open to the possibility.

quote:

There seems to be a possibility that a God could exist; or, rather, perhaps I tell myself that for my inability to truly embrace the world as it seems to be.


I wonder about that very thing myself: Am I just unwilling to face the randomness of a world without God?

quote:

the religious notions carried in this world are the wails of those afraid of mortality, among other things, conditioned as empty-minded daults who hold such a status proudly as "a believer".


That's probably true for many people, but I think there's more to religion than that. South Africa comes to mind. Just about everyone, including me, expected a bloodbath if apartheid ever ended. But Desmond Tutu's religious leadership helped shepherd the country through its extraordinary reconciliation process. I think also of the Quakers who were spurred by their religion to operate the Underground Railroad. I also know a lot of 12-step folks who were freed from the chains of addiction by belief in a higher power.




luckydog1 -> RE: Christianity and BDSM (1/6/2008 5:43:13 PM)

If you'd humor me and imagine a world, maybe a million years down the road, in which humanity is hugely advanced. Scientists in this world can tell you the exact interaction and state of the universe flawless (in other words, they have collosial computing power and perfect laws). If, at this point, the entire universe can be flawlessly described in a model which doesn't include a diety.. then does this system not, by definition, disprove a diety?

I don't think it does.  It still doesn't adress why the laws are.  In such a world we would find perfect predestination.  Every event predictable and the universe could be played back and forward like a DVD.  That still links up with everything being according to the will of God, predestination, which some Christians and many other religions believe in.  Even if they created a universe in a lab, it would just show that at least one universe had a creator.  That would of course force a radical change in theology.  But Theology has constantly evolved over time anyway, so its no big deal.



hermione83 -> RE: Christianity and BDSM (1/6/2008 8:31:36 PM)

Thank you CuriousLord, and may true love find you as well. And I would try to mention, that not being something physical does not prove that it doesn't exist. Like the piece of art depicting that ants don't understand the 3rd dimension... as we can't understand the 4th - even harder would be to grasp something not apart of our universe, and all things physical and testable. Could spiritual and love be things that actually exist, and not just chemical reactions in the human mind? How did everything come from nothing in the very first fraction of a second, anyway? Physicists don't have one good theory on the very first fraction of a second in the big bang theory.



thornhappy -> RE: Christianity and BDSM (1/7/2008 4:13:34 PM)

That's a job for cosmologists...they get off on stuff like that.

(In case folks wondered, it has nothing to do with Darwin.  Which was a surprise to creationists I've encountered.)

thornhappy



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