RE: Christianity and BDSM (Full Version)

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baretryst -> RE: Christianity and BDSM (12/28/2007 4:55:38 AM)

Before i was owned as my Master's pet, whilst searching for a Master, i had a Master who was a preacher. The fact that He was a preacher i did not know for a month and a half of service. I did know He was estranged from His wife (or atleast that is what He said) but did want her back. At that time in my life i was very much needing the physical -more sexual side of things anyway so was fine with being His play-thing. However i had expressed from the very beginning that i respected honesty - as trust is a MUST between Master and servant/slave. So when He confessed He was a preacher (the very same day He lost control and ignored my safe word *which BTW in years of practicing BDSM i had NEVER used before) i had to sever our twisted relationship.



kitttty -> RE: Christianity and BDSM (12/28/2007 6:05:26 AM)

OP<

If the Bible does not want you to get married, then it says you should get married.

Unless you want to engage in a bunch of chastity fantasies, which are probably pretty christian.



Aswad -> RE: Christianity and BDSM (12/28/2007 8:51:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirguym

I just do not accept that there is any 'received wisdom' in this world. Everything that is written or thought is the work of a man or woman.


Quite fair enough. I'd have to say some people were ahead of their time, then. Which is nothing new.

quote:

If you require your actions to be validated by any religion (or indeed any imposed belief system like socialism or fascism) you are abdicated the responsibility you should take for your own actions.


I quite agree with this. I do not feel compelled to play the beaten dog, like Job did.
And as for the faith side of things; it's been my take that Job is a warning, not an example.

quote:

but I went to a church school which pressured me (unsuccessfully by my teens) to pay at least lip-service to their silly rituals.


Makes sense. The extent to which someone cares about religion, and how highly they think of religions as a concept, is usually inversely correlated with their exposure to the people who think they get religion (without ever thinking about it) and feel they have to shove their angle on it down the throats of others. That turned me away from it for a long time, as well. Other things brought me back, foremost among them being rational thinking, amusingly enough.

quote:

along with the less obvious imposed guilt and blinkers


That part was actually the most obvious for me; not so many touchy-feely (pardon the pun) priests 'round here.

quote:

though I respect wisdom wherever I find it.


Amen. [:D]

Health,
al-Aswad.



Aswad -> RE: Christianity and BDSM (12/28/2007 8:52:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kitttty

OP<


I think he left. Anyone seen him for a while?

Health,
al-Aswad.



NorthernGent -> RE: Christianity and BDSM (12/28/2007 9:10:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NakedOnMyChain

First, religion shouldn't be, though it sadly often is, about fear.  Religion and spirituality are highly individual.  There are so many aspects and meaning to those spheres that it's a bit haughty to say it's all a sham, isn't it?  You can say it's sham for you.  That is your truth.  No one should deny you that.  Everyone else needs to find their own truth in their own way.  It is no one person's place to tell them what their path should be. 



Seconded.

Particularly the fear comment - the measure of security is living unshackled from fear, rather than the "we're all going to die, we need rules/armies/gods to save us" approach.

As you quite rightly point out, they're opinions - to each their own.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NakedOnMyChain

Secondly, why is religion relegated to subs?  Are we less in your eyes?  In your opinion is it the dominant's place to be the all-knowing truth holder, yet it is perfectly acceptable to let submissives delude themselves?  In many ways, holding a standard for yourself that you wouldn't hold a submissive to, or vice versa, is a negative thing.  Individual cases and obvious orientations aside, submissives, switches and dominants are equal.  Submissives and switches simply choose to relinquish some or all power over themselves.  That does not make them less in any capacity.  I understand the point you were trying to make, but I find that an extremely poor way to make it.



I suppose submission to an omnipotent authority may tell a story about a person's character. 'Nothing to do with delusion, and more akin to need.



chellekitty -> RE: Christianity and BDSM (12/28/2007 9:18:32 AM)

well, first off, i didn't read the whole post...so, forgive me if i am repeating anything...now that that is out of the way...

i saw some stuff mentioning the laws from the OT...well..as a Christian, i am not held to Mosaic Law...

quote:


23Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ[h] that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.
Galatians 3:23 - 25


Mosaic Law was created to bring the Jews to Christ, Christ came and freed us from Mosaic Law...

and then there is the fact that adultery is a sin...well...there is the fact that Christ died for my sins, so i don't have to worry myself sick for the sins I commit, but i try not to commit any sins...but it is my understanding that one sin is not larger than any sin....and lying is a sin to...yet we don't bring that up for conversation all to often...so if you are worried about being an adulter for the fact that it is a sin, you should also be worried about lying and all the other sin's as well because no sin is greater than any other sin, and all your sins are forgiven...

as for the thread of polyamory...if you have that big of a problem of having a relationship outside of marriage and you want to be polyamorus.....don't get married, or don't get married in the church....there are ways to get around everything if it means that much to you....personally, i don't think God has a problem with me having a relationship with more than one consenting adult...but thats just me...and if the church won't do a cerimony to show our commitment before God, well, i don't buy into church doctorine anyway, so it is alright, i will find another way...




Aswad -> RE: Christianity and BDSM (12/28/2007 2:08:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: chellekitty

as a Christian, i am not held to Mosaic Law... [passage from Galatians] Mosaic Law was created to bring the Jews to Christ, Christ came and freed us from Mosaic Law...


The Epistle to the Galatians, which you quoted, is one of the few writings we can with great confidence ascribe to Paul, the others being Corinthians, Philemon, Philippians, Romans and Thessalonians. It is virtually certain that this author is the Jewish puritan that was charged with taking down Jesus and his teachings, and who admits to never meeting the man. These writings have deep conflicts with the rest of what Jesus said.

Citing another passage, from the Gospel of Matthew, thought to stem from a first-hand account of Jesus' life and teachings, if not from the apostle himself, we get a directly contradictory message regarding the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, son of Mary. The founding fathers of the churches are unanimous in recognizing the validity and canonicity of this book, and the secular scholarship pretty much agrees on that.

"Do not think that I have come to set aside the Law or the prophets. I come not to abolish them, but to fullfil them. This is the truth: no part of the Law- not a letter, not a stroke of the pen, no matter how small- shall be repealed until everything is done and the heavens and the earth have disappeared." - Matthew 5:17-18 (rough translation)

This being one of the passages used to establish that Jesus is indeed the Messiah (bear in mind that Ezra is held by many to be just as likely to have been the Messiah as Jesus, except among the Christian churches, who all agree that this passage- and indeed all of the Gospel of Matthew- are absolutely canonical), it seems hard to dismiss its validity at the suggestion of a Jewish puritan in the employ of the Romans, charged with taking it down.

So, no, I would not say that you're home free in ignoring the Old Testament.

quote:

and then there is the fact that adultery is a sin...


As used in the various testaments, the word may well have a different meaning than we think.

quote:

there is the fact that Christ died for my sins, so i don't have to worry myself sick for the sins I commit


Here's the part I simply cannot agree with in any way, shape or form. Jesus may well have wiped the slate clean, but he certainly did not Teflon-coat it for posterity. There is indeed a message that you should focus on doing better in the future- and that this is the thing that will redeem you- rather than worry about past misdeeds. But here's the thing:

Jesus showed us the path,
he did not walk it for us.

quote:

but it is my understanding that one sin is not larger than any sin


Again, this seems entirely contradictory to everything the man stood for. If I rape and kill you, that's supposed to be no worse than telling a white lie, or telling your parents not to beat you up? Sorry, that just doesn't fly with me. What you are saying is that no imperfection is greater than any other, that since we are not perfect, it doesn't matter whether we live as Hitler did, or as Ghandi did. If Jesus still lived, he'd pop a blood vessel.

quote:

and lying is a sin to...yet we don't bring that up for conversation all to often...


And indeed the Jews teach that if you've got nothing good to say, you don't tell a white lie, but rather shut up.

quote:

so if you are worried about being an adulter for the fact that it is a sin, you should also be worried about lying and all the other sin's as well because no sin is greater than any other sin, and all your sins are forgiven...


This is tantamount to inciting people to sin. Without a standard to hold oneself to, and without any gradation of successes and failures, people slip. That is pretty much just the most elementary thing about how humans work. In fact, gradation of the successes and failures in our lives is critical in attaining satisfaction and avoiding depression. Also, it's clear that this same way of thinking is one of the etiologies of sociopathy. Hardly what Jesus taught.

quote:

personally, i don't think God has a problem with me having a relationship with more than one consenting adult...but thats just me...


No, that's not just you.

I agree with you on that one.

Health,
al-Aswad.



CuriousLord -> RE: Christianity and BDSM (12/28/2007 6:22:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

It happened to me. [...] It's another when you find out that the thing you based your life off of is a lie.


Your opinions suddenly make a whole lot more sense now (or, rather, they fit the data better).
I'd say priests are a whole lot more likely to fuck someone up than religion, per se.
As always, it depends on the interpretation you bring to the table.
Priests don't usually like to think, but prefer to be slaves.
In turn, they try to inflict this on others.
A spiral of spiritual violence.

Best wishes in your recovery, in any case.


Priests? Perhaps they do it to themselves worst, but what religion is any different? Sure, you can think about it. Sure, you can blow it up into some grandeous project of intense intellectual and emotional depth. But, in the end, it's an instance of having composed a complex and entrancing work of fiction.

Have no worry about me, though. My hatred for lies is part of my nature; always has been. While I may be fine, I do despise liars. Religion earns double points in my things-to-knock book as the assumptions provided in faith are a direct contradiction to science or any other earnest examination of the truth.



CuriousLord -> RE: Christianity and BDSM (12/28/2007 6:33:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NakedOnMyChain

You can say it's sham for you. That is your truth. No one should deny you that. Everyone else needs to find their own truth in their own way. It is no one person's place to tell them what their path should be. Donate your opinion, but please present it as an opinion and not fact.


The observation of a concrete material world is a prime basis for science and our very minds. It is the assumption we make in this world with such an utterly vast amount of empiracle support that it would be debasing to our very existence to now deny it; it supports everything that we're found to be testably true, such as casuality itself.

There is a concrete world that is the truth. There isn't 'my truth' nor 'your truth'.. only our respective views on the truth.




quote:

ORIGINAL: NakedOnMyChain

Secondly, why is religion relegated to subs? Are we less in your eyes? In your opinion is it the dominant's place to be the all-knowing truth holder, yet it is perfectly acceptable to let submissives delude themselves? In many ways, holding a standard for yourself that you wouldn't hold a submissive to, or vice versa, is a negative thing. Individual cases and obvious orientations aside, submissives, switches and dominants are equal. Submissives and switches simply choose to relinquish some or all power over themselves. That does not make them less in any capacity. I understand the point you were trying to make, but I find that an extremely poor way to make it.


This is an interesting rant. Regardless..

Less? Who said that? Not that I wouldn't concur. However, my point was that people often like the notion of a God because, then, they can be sumbissive to that God. They can praise it. They can let it tell them what's right and wrong. It can judge everything. It's the ultimate authority. Now, who do you think this appeals to: dominant or submissive people?

I feel religion is more likely to appeal to submissive people (regardless of what their BDSM choice may be).



luckydog1 -> RE: Christianity and BDSM (12/28/2007 7:21:14 PM)

Quite a bit of talk on this thread about Sin, its characteristics,and what exactly sins are.  My understanding of Christian/Jewish theology, is that "sin" is a state of being, not a paticular action.  Its opposite is "Grace".   Sin is the state of being disconeccted from God, and when this is considered many similarities between Hinduism and Bhudism (which is certainly what the wise kings from the orient were) appear.  Bibilically we have existed in the state of Sin since the fall (aquiring the knowledge of Good and Evil, which seems to be an metaphor for mankind changing from an animal to a thinking Human, ie understanding that there are wrong choices, instead of simply acting on animal instinct).  It works out like being pregnant, you are or are not.  You are either in a state of Grace (Satori, Nirvana, whatever a paticular culture names it) or in a state of Sin.  Humans judge the actions, and rate them in order to have a society, not God.  I suppose in true theory we should spend all of the time and resources we expend on BDSM related activities and and strive to help our fellow Men and the planet (Whether to honor God and his creation or some athiestic reason.  BDSM (hedonistic pursuit of sex) goes against many of the moral virtues we are all taught and ascribe to (Athiest or Religious, with a few sociopathic exceptions).  When it comes down to it, we all choose to buy a flogger instead of feeding a poor person.  We buy extra latex clothes for sensual reasons, while poor kids go naked, and look up what Latex is made from some time.  We ALL literally play sex games while people are horribly brutalised.  Ect Ect.  Pursuit of Sex promotes vanity, gluttony, hedonism, selfishness, and envy(among other things).  It is also absolutly vital to our existance and survival as a species, so most Moral codes come up with rules to try to tame it.  Sex isn't the only thing that works like that.



Rule -> RE: Christianity and BDSM (12/28/2007 7:40:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
The observation of a concrete material world is a prime basis for science and our very minds. It is the assumption we make in this world with such an utterly vast amount of empiracle support that it would be debasing to our very existence to now deny it; it supports everything that we're found to be testably true, such as casuality itself.
The effect of the Divine upon our universe is non-causal.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
They can let it tell them what's right and wrong. It can judge everything. It's the ultimate authority.
Quite. q.e.d.
 



Aswad -> RE: Christianity and BDSM (12/28/2007 7:49:21 PM)

Actually, nirvana and such terms can be said to describe an actual state of mind.
Grace, though, describes one of two things: (a) subspace, or (b) the status of being favored by the church.

At least, that's how the word is basically used.

Regardless, there are no grounds for morals of any sort, except whatever we care to decide upon. Faith doesn't play into that at all, since that's just another case of deciding (or having it passively handed down, which is a different kind of decision, one that is exceptionally common). So you could see morals as a memetic infection that evolution has produced, or you can view it as some manifestation of the will to power, or a mechanism of control, or whatever you feel like. And you can stick whatever values you might want in there. But this is all irrelevant, because this thread wasn't about any of that...

This thread was about the OP asking specifically for advice on how to reconcile his beliefs with his nature and desires.

Thus, tons of debate on universal themes, atheism, morals, states, and so forth, is a pointless hijack.

Health,
al-Aswad.



luckydog1 -> RE: Christianity and BDSM (12/28/2007 8:30:34 PM)

I suppose that is your opinion Aswad.  

Quite simply you may believe,
"Here's the part I simply cannot agree with in any way, shape or form. Jesus may well have wiped the slate clean, but he certainly did not Teflon-coat it for posterity. There is indeed a message that you should focus on doing better in the future- and that this is the thing that will redeem you- rather than worry about past misdeeds. But here's the thing:

Jesus showed us the path,
he did not walk it for us.
 
But that is not Christian theology.  Christians indeed do believe that Christ walked that Path for us. Why you already turned this thread into a discussion of your personal take on what Christians should believe is unclear, but you simply are misdefining Grace and Nirvana.  Dollmaster as a practicing concerned Christian is aware of what Grace means.  And that According to Christ, people get saved through Gods Grace, not works, even though they are sinners and fall short of his glory.   And Morals seem to be involved in the practice of Christianity, so seem to be relevant, especially to the poster.
 
Frankly a commited Bhudist would spend his time trying to extinguish his desires for BDSM, not chase them on a website.  So would a commited pursuer of Social Justice.  So would a commited Christian.  But no one is perfect(not even monks), and God understands that.  Most churches, don't consider kissing while dating to be a sin, but it is discouraged becaues it can lead to more.  I would imagine the same goes for BDSM games that stop short of sex.  I think BDSM in itself is no worse a sin that Monday Night Football




Rule -> RE: Christianity and BDSM (12/28/2007 8:50:48 PM)

To be in grace is to be innately ethically aware. Satan is not. Therefore Satan and his minions (jews and other populations that practise the mutilation by circumcision of the penises of their males) are without grace and are forced to take recourse to the inadequate crutch of the law. Paul recognized that those populations that did not mutilate the penises of their males lived in grace - being not circumcized of the penis, but of the heart.
 
Verily: all populations that mutilate the penises of their males are doomed to be without grace and do worship not the Creator, but Satan.



luckydog1 -> RE: Christianity and BDSM (12/28/2007 8:55:43 PM)

[image]http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m22.gif[/image]



Aswad -> RE: Christianity and BDSM (12/28/2007 9:00:05 PM)

You may be content to dismiss personal responsibility and accountability, luckydog.

Certainly, a number of denominations that term themselves Christian will say that this is so: leave your life in the hands of the priests, as a proxy for Jesus, and all will be well; there is no need to live well, as long as you believe hard enough that someone else will be accountable for you.

My reading is different, but still deals with the same subject matter. I earlier brought up the point that the OP will have to think for himself if he is to resolve this dilemma. You may disagree with that. Later, others brought up the fact that the mainstream angle, as you've forwarded it here, is harmful to the human condition, although whether it's harmful for your soul is a matter of opinion. The comments you and chelle made on this are so substantially in disagreement with my own position that I responded in order that the OP and others might have a different POV to consider.

You state that I misdefine Nirvana, which is odd, as I did not forward a definition of that in this thread, except to note that it can be viewed as a state of mind in the anataman interpretation of Buddhism. And my comprehension of that state, from direct and personal experience, has been deemed correct by more than one practicing Buddhist. Other interpretations exist, of course, but mine is not the least bit unconventional in the anataman (no-soul) interpretation.

You also state that I misdefine Grace, which means you did not catch the sarcasm. Properly, in the mainstream theologies, this state is not as I forwarded, of course. The manner in which I expressed it was, as noted, sarcastic, reflecting my cynical view of how the term is used in practice as either referring to a state of approval by the church in question, or as referring to a state that frequently derives from extended deprivation or suffering (e.g. the medieval practice of flagellation) or extreme submission to the posited godhead. The former is an artifact of language, being a matter of externally referencing the judgment that someone must be in a state of grace. The latter is an instance of subspace. Neither of which are theological definitions, just observations.

Also, morals are indeed involved in Christianity, and indeed all humanist moralities derive from the Abrahamic lineage. I never stated differently, though I have argued that there are several different interpretations of the source texts that have varying views on what is moral and what is immoral. I've commented on the contents of this morality elsewhere, so I'll not repeat it here.

Both positions have been forwarded and the OP gets to decide for himself which angle makes the most sense to him. If you see flaws in any of these positions, feel free to do so. But to me, it seems at the very least borderline ludicrous to say "well, I really shouldn't do this, but I want to, and God will understand that I have no will of my own to resist with, so I will just do this, and peg it on the divine scapegoat of Jesus."

If he wants to stick with the orthodox position, the answer is really quite simple: don't. do. it.
If he wants to go with the take you and chelle have, the answer is equally simple:
Do as thou wilt and believe in Jesus shall be the whole of the law.

I will cede that the last option accurately summarizes some definitions of Christianity, but not all of them.

Health,
al-Aswad.



DollMaster72 -> RE: Christianity and BDSM (12/28/2007 9:08:53 PM)

Thank you so much Stephann.  You are perceptive.  I really like the holding by the wrist idea.  She is somewhat resistant to many service task. We are still searching to find what fits well for each of us and for us together.  It is difficult as we each have been married in the past, and it is very easy to jump ahead with parts of the relationship that already feel comfortable to both of us. 

Thank you for you time and attention.

DM



DollMaster72 -> RE: Christianity and BDSM (12/28/2007 9:14:01 PM)

Wow, there is alot of good thought to digest here.  I have been out of town, busy with work, and not able to put time in to read all the replys.  What I have skimmed is interesting, though not exactly what I was asking for.  I hope to invest some more time here this weekend.

Thanks
DM



NorthernGent -> RE: Christianity and BDSM (12/29/2007 2:54:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

To be in grace is to be innately ethically aware. Satan is not. Therefore Satan and his minions (jews and other populations that practise the mutilation by circumcision of the penises of their males) are without grace and are forced to take recourse to the inadequate crutch of the law. Paul recognized that those populations that did not mutilate the penises of their males lived in grace - being not circumcized of the penis, but of the heart.
 
Verily: all populations that mutilate the penises of their males are doomed to be without grace and do worship not the Creator, but Satan.


I didn't appreciate this; this isn't good news at all.

I had my foreskin cut as a small child - wasn't really my fault, 'not much I could do about it - but, I've since had it surgically reinstated.

Do I worship Satan or the Creator?



mons -> RE: Christianity and BDSM (12/29/2007 3:16:21 AM)

greeitngs to all

i am a dom-me and i am also a Christian and i believe in Jesus and god. i had moments in my life where i know that god was there to help me. i believe in angels . i am a twin and we both had thing happen that we both can not explain, i had once where i would leave my door open and i live in a very safe place this happen years ago as i sat on my sofa . i heard or felt a voice say lock the door. i jump up and lock it and i was thinking" what was that " so i sat back down and just went on with watching TV, not more then 5 minutes had passed and i man ran full force into my door and he hit it so hard he left his body print on it, i scream and i ran and called the police they sent so many cars out but this man had left. i believe he live close by.  my twin and i were riding home and each day we would take the same road but for reason again i can not explain we both said " let us go the other way. at the moment we would at been at the road we travel each day a car roll off of the over pass . we would had died and we had our childern in the car.

i know many of you may not believe this and we had so many other things happen and saw . i am a dom-me but i am a Christina first always and yes i pray for my wicked ways by as long as god see my heart for what is in it i am ok and i will answer to him for all i do. and i have seen things and saw the future i had to stop watching "American most want" i saw to many things and i can not but one time pin point a body so i do not watch it at all now. i can not handle the faces i saw the face of someone who was wanted and i told my son and twin he looks like this he works for th city, and they caught him and my son told me never to tell him anything again, i should had called but i did not think anyone would believe me. so yes i believe in god so strong. many thing can not be explain i can not explain why i see the future as does my twin too i do not tell now i out. take care all

mons



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