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Outed in reverse, and demo doms taking advantage... - 12/19/2007 9:54:21 AM   
Tigrita


Posts: 484
Joined: 8/16/2007
From: California
Status: offline 		I have a couple of beefs that I can't help but bring up here today.  They are different topics that would probably be suited to two different threads but I didn't want to start two different rants, and they have a common thread which is people and activities in the scene taking advantage of trust.

Why is it that every time I'm standing next to someone kind of creepy who is trying to pick up on me and asking way too many personal questions, a friend comes up and says "Hey J_____ (real name, unique and googleable, disclosed only to good friends), how are things at _________ (place of employment, disclosed only to even better friends, or so I thought)?"  Maybe I'm paranoid, but I try  not to give out my personal information haphazardly (though maybe I should be more specific, or more clear that it is personal and private.  I don't like that off chance that some creepy unbalanced sadist who sees me at a munch might try to stalk me to work or my home if he gets the opportunity.  Is anyone else worried about this kind of thing and protective of their personal info, or am I being unreasonably paranoid?  Because the above situation has happened multiple times now, and people I thought were trustworthy confidants don't seem to consider this info private.

*******
Second rant: Why can't most dominant and sadistic people get a handle on their egos enough to not show off and manipulate at every opportunity?  I participate in a monthly shibari workshop and usually volunteer as the demo girl since my dominant can't make it to the meetings and I just love to get tied.  The leader of the group is a good guy and a friend, but heaven help him, can't resist shit like tickling me when he knows I really hate it, and showing off using pressure points, which has nothing to do with shibari and I did not agree to when I volunteer, and really do not enjoy and he knows it.  Shibari club is one of the best happy places I have because I so love getting tied, I don't want to stop going, and my enjoyment outweighs these infractions, but I don't known how to get through to people who are dead set on showing off like that and taking advantage of their position as leader and dominant when I'm tied up.


Then there was another thing last night... I'm not particularly modest, I often strip down to just panties for the demonstrations because it is easier to learn and safer when you can see the anatomy better, but not everyone knows this.  Last night the room was chilly so I stayed dressed, though I was wearing a short skirt.  Once the leader had me on a table with one leg tied up at a crazy angle, this other guy took it upon himself to spread my legs by moving the free leg.  I was facing the other direction and thought it was the leader who I'd agreed to let tie me, continuing the demonstration.  But then I realized the leader was on the other side of me talking to some people, and the guy messing with my leg put it back in a more modest position and laughed saying 'haha, I didn't know how modest you want to be'.  WTF?  You didn't seem to be concerned about my modesty a second ago!  I really didn't know how to react at the moment, and the demo was moving along, so I didn't say anything at the moment (fuck I hate when I freeze up like that), but it really pissed me off that someone I had not agreed to participate with was getting his jollies playing with me while I'm tied down!  Anyone experience anything like this?  How did you handle it? 

Okay, that was more like 3 rants, sorry, I just thought I'd collect all the negativity in one place rather than swamp the board with it.


_____________________________

~ Tigrita

There is no right path, only the path you take.

Success is making life happen, versus just letting life happen to you.

"Many of the things I enjoy, I enjoy because I don't enjoy them." - Charlotte
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RE: Outed in reverse, and demo doms taking advantage... - 12/19/2007 10:03:05 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		Hi Tigrita,  Here are my thoughts on your rants: 

Rant #1:  Unfortunately, not everyone shares the same privacy concerns.  I share your's, actually.  I tend to be a fairly private person, careful about what I share and with whom.  I remember shopping with a friend for bathroom tiles, and the salesman was obviously flirting with me.  When asked, "So where do you work?" my standard answer was to say, "I work down the hill in Sacramento."  Generic enough, right?  My friend pipes in:  "Oh she works at So-N-So in Sacramento!"  Gee, thanks!  I told her later, "Hey, don't do that, ok?" but unless you can educate all your friends about your views on privacy, I don't think it can be prevented, unfortunately.  I agree it is an annoyance.

Rants #2 and 3:  Wow.  The only thing that comes to mind is if those people could not respect my personal space and boundaries, I wouldn't volunteer anymore, no matter how much I enjoyed being tied.  If I continued, I have agreed to and would expect to have my boundaries crossed as part of the demo.  And I'm with you - I hate to be tickled.  It's the easiest way to piss me off! 

(in reply to Tigrita)
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RE: Outed in reverse, and demo doms taking advantage... - 12/19/2007 10:15:56 AM   
Phin


Posts: 1802
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline 		 Rant #1 The only way I can thing to reduce (still not stop) the giving out of your information is to tell them not to pass it out when you give it to them.

Rant #2 and 3 If my limits were pushed like that, I would not play with the person that again.

_____________________________

"Isn't wonderful when our bruises show what we hide in the back of our heads?"Fayetteville band, Nephilym

"He is my angel, my devil, my naughty boy, but above anything else my Master"My girl sin

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
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RE: Outed in reverse, and demo doms taking advantage... - 12/19/2007 10:20:58 AM   
topcat


Posts: 1675
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Tidewater, VA
Status: offline 		Dear T.-
 
Well, I do see a sorta common thread between the two- the people you are letting in.
 
Second issue first; I wouldn't make an issue in the moment- freezing up actually works for you there. You should, however, make the issue clear- more than clear- to the Top(s)-In-Question that the little no-big-deal playful behavoior (which I suspect is how they will portray it) is a big deal, and is not playful, as soon as the demo is over, make sure that there is a 3rd party witness to your statement, and next time it happens, (again, after the demo, show must go on and all that) inform the management that you will not work with him again.
 
On the first issue, well, maybe it's an NYC sorta thing, but my friends and I seem to close-mouthed about such things, and I really can't imagine a friend of mine blurting out sensitive personal information in a public place like that. In fact, we have a set of hand signals meaning 'I am OK, but stay clear' ,'come over so I can introduce you' 'and 'come over and be my significant other/ rescue me' (it's touching the ear for stay over there, touching the cheek for come on over, and touching the nose for 'save me').
 
Certainly, in a scene enviroment, mudane info spilling is considered very poor form. I'd sugest whacking 'em in the chops next time they do it.
 
Stay warm,
Lawrence

_____________________________

-there is no remission without blood-

(in reply to Tigrita)
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RE: Outed in reverse, and demo doms taking advantage... - 12/19/2007 10:24:34 AM   
Muttling


Posts: 1612
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline 		Number 1 is a problem for all who try to keep portions of their lives separate, it is not an easy thing to accomplish and kinksters aren't unique to this problem.


On the subject of 2 and 3, you must learn to push back which is completely against your nature as a submissive.  When the lines are crossed (such as the situations you describe), then you must find a way to tactfully point it out and state that your participation will not continue unless the actions that piss you off are ended.  Your only other option is to tolerate it.

(in reply to Phin)
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RE: Outed in reverse, and demo doms taking advantage... - 12/19/2007 10:24:47 AM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline 		I was having a conversation with a friend just last night.  She asked how she could tell a guy she didn't want to play with him any more.  She was frustrated because she had been telling him, "My brother is home," "I think you should really look for other women to play with," etc., and his response was that he still wanted to play with her, and offered to turn up the TV so her brother wouldn't hear.  She had never used the words "no," "not interested," or anything, um, CLEAR like that.

How about at the next shibari meeting you say you have an announcement, and say something like, "I enjoy modeling, but I will not do it any more unless my limits are respected.  My limits are <fill in here>.  Examples of exceeding my limits are <provide those two examples, no need to name names if you don't want to> ."  Say it loudly and clearly enough so everyone hears.  It will take less than five minutes, and everyone will be clear.

Or, translated into asshole-ese: It's not rape if you *don't* say no.

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
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RE: Outed in reverse, and demo doms taking advantage... - 12/19/2007 10:27:35 AM   
SingleRarity


Posts: 320
Joined: 9/13/2006
Status: offline 		I think that in the case of rants #1 and #2, if you want things to actually change, you have to voice your concerns. If you don't tell the people that what they are doing upsets you, then they are not going to stop. You can tell them discretely to avoid embarrassment (negotiate ahead of time), but if they persist in doing what you don't like, then you may have to call them on their actions at the time they are doing it, in front of everyone. Yes, that will likely embarrass them, but if that is the only way to get your point across, then they deserve it. If you can’t call them on their actions like that though (like if you are too shy or whatnot), then I suppose the only other two choices are to continue putting up with them or stop participating all together.
In the case of rant #3, well that person had absolutely no right to touch you like that and in my mind that was borderline assault. It's understandable that you were unable to address the issue at that moment, but afterwards it would have been totally appropriate for you to approach the DM's or whoever runs the space you play in with a complaint about the person who touched you. If you haven't already done so already, I would recommend still doing it, as that person needs to be told that it is NEVER acceptable to touch someone or join a scene uninvited. Seriously, you could be in the center of a 20 person gang-bang bukake fest, and it would absolutely STILL be unacceptable for someone who was not invited to join in.


(in reply to Tigrita)
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RE: Outed in reverse, and demo doms taking advantage... - 12/19/2007 10:27:40 AM   
ottRopesandKnots


Posts: 105
Joined: 9/12/2007
Status: offline 		Sadly friends are often clueless with personal information.  There's really not much you can do other than politely ask them to be a little more considerate in the future.  Unless you get people used to calling you by a nickname your real first name is just going to come out, but more personal things like where you work and live can probably be a little more discrete.  At the end of the day, once the cat's out of the bag there's not much you can do to put it back in.  Friends are an annoyance we all just have to live with.

Rant #2?  Since it is something you've specifically asked him not to do, repeatedly, just use your safe word and stop the scene.  Make him untie you and he can continue on another volunteer if he can find one.  Friends like to push boundaires playfully, don't get mad, just be rational and let him (and everyone) understand that he crossed a line you asked him not to cross.  Careful though, if you do it wrong you can come off looking like the ass.  Also, I'm generally of the mind that if you submit to someone and let them tie you up, they're responsible for keeping you safe and comfortable.  Other guy shouldn't have had the opportunity to be messing with your legs if that wasn't part of the plan, leader should have been watching.  Perhaps leader should educate everyone in advance not to tinker with his demo gal.

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
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RE: Outed in reverse, and demo doms taking advantage... - 12/19/2007 10:34:13 AM   
sexyred1


Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline 		When someone proves to me that they can't respect my boundaries, I don't give them a second opportunity to cross them again. I also make it very clear to them why they will not be getting another shot at it.

(in reply to Tigrita)
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RE: Outed in reverse, and demo doms taking advantage... - 12/19/2007 10:36:27 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		Ok, very strange...that post shows as being made by sexyred1 and it was mine...and it gives me no way to edit it...what the ??????

anyone else ever have such a thing happen?

< Message edited by mistoferin -- 12/19/2007 10:37:29 AM >

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to sexyred1)
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RE: Outed in reverse, and demo doms taking advantage... - 12/19/2007 10:38:08 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		wonder if they are doing some background work and you hit it at just the wrong time...

Ron 

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(in reply to mistoferin)
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RE: Outed in reverse, and demo doms taking advantage... - 12/19/2007 10:41:38 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		not sure what happened but I just sent a note to the Mods....and my apologies to sexyred1....just want to make it clear that those were my words and not hers

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Outed in reverse, and demo doms taking advantage... - 12/19/2007 10:58:11 AM   
YourhandMyAss


Posts: 5516
Joined: 6/25/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		I don't see the point of save me hand signals, If someone was creepy or I didn't wish to further speak to them I'd simply excuse myself. If they refused to let me leave the conversation or their precence will then I'd loudly say Excuse me I've said I need to excuse myself now let me do so. And then it's up to them if they choose to make a further sceen by not letting me excuse myself.

quote:

ORIGINAL: topcat

, we have a set of hand signals meaning 'I am OK, but stay clear' ,'come over so I can introduce you' 'and 'come over and be my significant other/ rescue me' Stay warm,
Lawrence

(in reply to topcat)
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RE: Outed in reverse, and demo doms taking advantage... - 12/19/2007 11:17:16 AM   
topcat


Posts: 1675
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Tidewater, VA
Status: offline 		Well, that may work fine for you-
 
Oftentimes I have found myself trapped in a conversation with someone that resisted my efforts to disengage from politely, and it's been handy to scratch my nose and have a friend come over to make noises about having to get the sitter home or the like.

_____________________________

-there is no remission without blood-

(in reply to YourhandMyAss)
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RE: Outed in reverse, and demo doms taking advantage... - 12/19/2007 11:17:57 AM   
Dnomyar


Posts: 7933
Joined: 6/27/2005
Status: offline 		As for #1 have a talk with your friends. #2 if you do the demo again tell the guy doing the demo to get his act together. He should have not let anyone get close enough to touch you.  Better yet let your Dom talk to him.

(in reply to YourhandMyAss)
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RE: Outed in reverse, and demo doms taking advantage... - 12/19/2007 11:28:18 AM   
Aileen1968


Posts: 6062
Joined: 12/12/2007
From: I miss Shore, New Jersey
Status: offline 		Rant #1  It's kind of hard to control what people blurt out, but you do have every right to stop the flow of info once you realize how the conversation's heading.

Rant # 2 and 3  I find "get your fucking hands off of me" is quite effective.

_____________________________



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RE: Outed in reverse, and demo doms taking advantage... - 12/19/2007 11:28:56 AM   
Wildfleurs


Posts: 1650
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
Status: offline 		Honestly, my reaction in reading all three of these is that you can't expect other people's behavior to change, all you can do is change your behavior given the way people behave.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tigrita

I have a couple of beefs that I can't help but bring up here today.  They are different topics that would probably be suited to two different threads but I didn't want to start two different rants, and they have a common thread which is people and activities in the scene taking advantage of trust.

Why is it that every time I'm standing next to someone kind of creepy who is trying to pick up on me and asking way too many personal questions, a friend comes up and says "Hey J_____ (real name, unique and googleable, disclosed only to good friends), how are things at _________ (place of employment, disclosed only to even better friends, or so I thought)?"  Maybe I'm paranoid, but I try  not to give out my personal information haphazardly (though maybe I should be more specific, or more clear that it is personal and private.  I don't like that off chance that some creepy unbalanced sadist who sees me at a munch might try to stalk me to work or my home if he gets the opportunity.  Is anyone else worried about this kind of thing and protective of their personal info, or am I being unreasonably paranoid?  Because the above situation has happened multiple times now, and people I thought were trustworthy confidants don't seem to consider this info private.


Thats precisely why I don't ever tell people the name of the place I work (or have worked before).  The only person that knows that is my owner and my family.

quote:


Second rant: Why can't most dominant and sadistic people get a handle on their egos enough to not show off and manipulate at every opportunity?  I participate in a monthly shibari workshop and usually volunteer as the demo girl since my dominant can't make it to the meetings and I just love to get tied.  The leader of the group is a good guy and a friend, but heaven help him, can't resist shit like tickling me when he knows I really hate it, and showing off using pressure points, which has nothing to do with shibari and I did not agree to when I volunteer, and really do not enjoy and he knows it.  Shibari club is one of the best happy places I have because I so love getting tied, I don't want to stop going, and my enjoyment outweighs these infractions, but I don't known how to get through to people who are dead set on showing off like that and taking advantage of their position as leader and dominant when I'm tied up.


Have you pulled him aside and asked him to stop doing that?  I would be very specific about the behavior he has engaged in without your (or your dominant's) consent.  If you have already talked to him about it I would stop volunteering to be tied up, and when asked why, I would be absolutely clear about the reason why.

quote:


Then there was another thing last night... I'm not particularly modest, I often strip down to just panties for the demonstrations because it is easier to learn and safer when you can see the anatomy better, but not everyone knows this.  Last night the room was chilly so I stayed dressed, though I was wearing a short skirt.  Once the leader had me on a table with one leg tied up at a crazy angle, this other guy took it upon himself to spread my legs by moving the free leg.  I was facing the other direction and thought it was the leader who I'd agreed to let tie me, continuing the demonstration.  But then I realized the leader was on the other side of me talking to some people, and the guy messing with my leg put it back in a more modest position and laughed saying 'haha, I didn't know how modest you want to be'.  WTF?  You didn't seem to be concerned about my modesty a second ago!  I really didn't know how to react at the moment, and the demo was moving along, so I didn't say anything at the moment (fuck I hate when I freeze up like that), but it really pissed me off that someone I had not agreed to participate with was getting his jollies playing with me while I'm tied down!  Anyone experience anything like this?  How did you handle it? 

Okay, that was more like 3 rants, sorry, I just thought I'd collect all the negativity in one place rather than swamp the board with it.



I think if you are volunteering to be the demoee you need to make it clear to the person doing the demo that they are the only person that should be touching you.  Now if you are volunteering for a demo where people are allowed to try out things on you, then what you described is just the dirty downside of it.  If so, you should re-evaluate whether its worthwhile to volunteer for such things, if you keep on getting in situations like this and the other one described.

C~

< Message edited by Wildfleurs -- 12/19/2007 11:31:13 AM >

_____________________________

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." -despair.com

~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
The heart of it all - http://www.wildfleurs.com
~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

(in reply to Tigrita)
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RE: Outed in reverse, and demo doms taking advantage... - 12/19/2007 11:30:00 AM   
sexyred1


Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

not sure what happened but I just sent a note to the Mods....and my apologies to sexyred1....just want to make it clear that those were my words and not hers


thanks, I thought I was going crazy!! because I had no intention of even posting to this thread, just peeked in and saw myself has having posted, scary!

< Message edited by sexyred1 -- 12/19/2007 11:33:57 AM >

(in reply to mistoferin)
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RE: Outed in reverse, and demo doms taking advantage... - 12/19/2007 11:58:38 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

not sure what happened but I just sent a note to the Mods....and my apologies to sexyred1....just want to make it clear that those were my words and not hers


thanks, I thought I was going crazy!! because I had no intention of even posting to this thread, just peeked in and saw myself has having posted, scary!


Just to let you know, I did get a response back from Mod 11. She can't reassign the post so I hope that it's ok with you that it stands with clarification. If not, let me know and I could have her remove it entirely.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to sexyred1)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Outed in reverse, and demo doms taking advantage... - 12/19/2007 11:59:26 AM   
LadyHugs


Posts: 2299
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Dear Tigrita, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
Regarding Rant #1.  Oh I have had individuals countless times slip my personal information more than once but, those in the scene who slipped their tongue I cut off from any and all communication forever, other than a polite exchange but--never will they have my confidence and or my trust.  The one's who drop names, the ones who are the town gossip, the ones who use my name as to manipulate and or decieve others -- all are banned in my eyes.  The lack of being discreet wouldn't have been tolerated in the 1970's and 1980's because M/s, D/s, S&M and or BDSM activities were forbidden and lives would be wrecked forever.  With such a information and or Internet information/inquiry systems today--it is even  more important than ever to be discreet.  I would tell the one with the Ex-Lax mouth that you really do not appreciate his spilling of personal/private information--now you have to be on edge as the person who listened in is someone who is not giving you good vibrations.  If someone approaches, I do appreciate so much if they ask -- without mentioning names--"May we talk freely now?"  A yes or no answer will give the flag if it is safe or not.  Another option to respond to Mr/Ms Ex-Lax mouth around someone who is giving you bad vibrations-- I would respond-- "Oh I am so sorry--you must have me mixed up with someone else--this has happened to me a lot lately."  Or, "Oh, I'm so sorry--you have me confused with my twin.  I'll be sure and pass the message along."
 
Regarding to Rant #2. I can really understand the anger.  It really happens more often when male Dominants demo/present with female 'demo' bottoms/submissives/slaves.  It is also been the case where some female Dominants have their ego and show off 'intentions' to take liberties with male/female demo bottoms/submissives/slaves.  As a presenter, one who does demonstrations and the like--I do make a distinction between a 'scene' and a 'presentation' and or 'demonstration.'  Perhaps there is a need to define these differences between 'scene' and 'education.'  The standard I use in demonstrations -- I speak to the crowd and to the one who is the 'victim/demo bottom.'  The introduction, the purpose of the demonstration and then I say--Please understand that this is NOT a scene.  This is strictly a demonstration.  I also will be careful to not do anything to upset the demo bottom.  They are there for education, sharing and also giving their feed back to the crowd--as I do not wish anybody to 'just take my word for it that it works.'  I would be mortified if I went over the line with a demo bottom, by turning a demo into a scene.  I'm all 'business' in my demonstrations.  If people want to scene after a demo--fine but; my main purpose is to demonstrate techniques.  Now, that said--I do understand rope dress and rope bondage.  I have lengthy fingernails and at times they do cause some to tickle but--I warn demo bottoms ahead of time--I don't just 'tickle' for the sake of giving a demo bottom grief.  Demo bottoms are the epitome of 'sharing' their body for the sake of learning and the sake for safety of their brothers and sisters in the lifestyle.  We all would be a poor lot indeed if we betray that trust and most of all--the opportunity to use a submissive/slave as to better Dominants and submissive types in general. 
 
I know I am not the person to whom has done this to you but, as a seasoned presenter--you do have my personal apology that this has ever been done to you; as well as others who might read this thread and experienced such a violation of trust and most of all --the intentions of being a demonstration volunteer that is skewed into some sneaky scene snips.
 
Reference to Rant #3.  This is really connected into Rant #2 and something I will not tolerate and only will tolerate if there is an immediate emergency.  I do state, that nobody is to assist unless there is a clear emergency and or when I ask for help.  I do designate my assistants. Nobody else is around.  My focus will be on the demonstration/presentation and I do not get distracted and always keep the demo bottom in my view.  I never turn my back on them and will keep control of the presentation.  As I stated in response to Rant #2--this isn't a scene and even if it was--scene etiquette is such that NOBODY should enter the scene and take liberties unless they are invited into it.  Its just plain rude!  I would make short work of it--if in the demonstration of whips/canes.  I am known to have a single tail with me at all times and I will snap it on the person who dares taking liberties if my oral command to leave the demo bottom alone won't sink in.  My duty is to protect the demo bottom period!  No excuses and no tolerances for someone to disrupt the demonstration/presentment period--unless it is a clear emergency and I am not able to handle that emergency alone.
 
Again--I apologize to you as a presenter, that this ever happened to you.  I would hope that the group/club are made aware that this is just plain rude to the presenter/demonstrator and to you the demo bottom, who graciously puts themselves in the position to help educate others.
 
This really has me personally sick inside -- I feel so absolutely sorrowful for what you had to endure and I can only imagine how upset your owner/Master must be.  This shouldn't happen in a scene...let alone a demonstration/presentation.  It is just so rude and unkind and disrupts the entire spirit of support and education through demonstrations/presentations.
 
Respectfully submitted and disgusted for what has happened,
Lady Hugs
 
 

(in reply to Tigrita)
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