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Self-Mastery - 12/23/2007 7:34:57 AM

NorthernGent

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A post from Bull in which he equated self-mastery with discipline prompted this post (apologies in advance to Bull regarding any error in translation).

My background is history, so my understanding of philosophy isn't the best; perhaps the philosophs can help me out, here.

Is discipline the hallmark of self-mastery? All opinions are welcome.

The reason I ask is this:

Order, restraint, discipline underpin the Protestant work ethic - particularly Calvinism. It goes without saying that this is a doctrine developed in response to the excess of the Catholic church (throw in a spot of power dualling for good measure); you know: get up early, work hard, thrift, self-improvement through literature, inner-piety etc.

Does this centrally imposed doctrine concerned with discipline, order and restraint necessarily equate to self-mastery?

Are there grounds to suggest that self-expression, romanticism and excess are more in tune with self-mastery?

Edited for sub-standard grammar.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 12/23/2007 7:36:44 AM >

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

Post #: 1

RE: Self-Mastery - 12/23/2007 8:43:59 AM

xBullx

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Howdy Gent,

I was actually drawing a parallel within separate proposed arts, those of self mastery, discipline and obedience. Not being the best with grammar sentance structure or content, perhaps I should have worded it differently. I was stating each of the three qualities in a somewhat separate context; with regards to some here who have stated things about mastering themselves and others; while others are about disciplining themselves and still there are those that live for absolute obedience unto one of those that would be the master. I do however see what you are introducing here in your thread; at least I think I do.

Mastery can take many shapes and forms. It is often stated that in order to master another you must first master yourself. That in itself isn’t always the case. It might be a preferred situation in many areas, but not always a prerequisite. Many times we witness spoiled, tyrannical, undisciplined and loathsome beasts that might in fact control the puppet strings of a beautiful obedient and disciplined creature. Some of us have bore witness to as much and in a disgusted, overly judgmental attitude asked ourselves why or how this could have come to be.

The world is filled with the sentiments of to each their own and other sensible practicalities.

Self mastery as you have outlined, over the qualities such as self expression, romanticism and excess are just a few of the conditions one might be set out to master within themselves. The fact is that within these contexts of personal mastery the degree of accomplishment or standard will most likely vary from individual to individual. It is possible to belong to a group of persons and self mastery be seen through common measures and standards; but even in that personal preferences will inevitability be distinguishable.

Actually I am not the best one to debate and discuss the philosophies of the aforementioned religious organizations, I will say, that if mastering any of their preconceived tenants is of importance to you personally then by all means do so. As for the reasons a Church would have a man mastering himself, I have never been able to determine completely if it was for the good of God, the Community or the Church... And in that there are times in our history where the Church was not as much about God and its members, but more often its leader. Ahhh but that is surely another story in itself.

So in the end self mastery may be judged by nearly anyone you would meet; I am of the mind that most often the principles of self mastery are self imposed and determined by what needs to be mastered within ourselves.

You’ll have to let me know if I was thinking along separate lines as you.

Live well,

Bull

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull

I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 2

RE: Self-Mastery - 12/23/2007 10:00:00 AM

charmdpetKeira

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quote:

Is discipline the hallmark of self-mastery?

I would think knowledge of self would be just as important as discipline.

quote:

get up early, work hard, thrift, self-improvement through literature, inner-piety etc

This list appears to me as someone’s ethics being pushed off on others and has more to do with learning to follow the crowd than “mastering self”.

I am not sure I find “self-mastery” to be a reasonable goal to try to achieve, there are too many aspects being effected by constant change. Therefore, I am more geared toward constant improvement.

I think the activities involved are dependent on the needs, interests, and goals of the individual. For me, it has been a process of introspect; tearing apart old beliefs to understand where they came from, inspecting them for inaccuracy, and adjusting accordingly.

quote:

Are there grounds to suggest that self-expression, romanticism and excess are more in tune with self-mastery?

I wouldn’t rule them out, but as with anything, I think it is important to know when, how much, and by what means.

Sincerely,

k

ps. I hope my train of thought didn’t jump track on you.

_____________________________

Life is tough, that does not mean it isn't fair.

There is no wrong choice, only consequence.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 3

RE: Self-Mastery - 12/23/2007 11:45:41 AM

OrionTheWolf

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I am not sure I would call it the hallmark, but one of the requirements of self-mastery. I would say that Calvinism is a good structure to achieve self mastery, but everything must be molded to the individual. On the flip side, discipline taken to the extreme could be a symptom of a neurosis, and that would not be part of self-mastery. An eastern slant on things would be, the ability to do nothing when everyone else is trying to do everything.

Good topic NG. Wish there were more of these in the Off Topic area.

Merry Christmas!

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 4

RE: Self-Mastery - 12/23/2007 11:59:46 AM

kdsub

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Hi NorthernGent

To me self-mastery means controlling behavior. However first the mind must set standards… these standards do not require discipline but are the most important.
They encompass all humane endeavors you mentioned in your post.

After these standards are set then yes I believe it is discipline that controls how to abide them.
Butch

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Post #: 5

RE: Self-Mastery - 12/24/2007 2:21:35 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

Howdy Gent,

So in the end self mastery may be judged by nearly anyone you would meet; I am of the mind that most often the principles of self mastery are self imposed and determined by what needs to be mastered within ourselves.

You’ll have to let me know if I was thinking along separate lines as you.

Live well,

Bull

Hello Bull,

You certainly were thinking along similar lines.

As you point out, the catalyst should be individual needs, rather than a doctrine/value system.

It strikes me that modern societies value discipline, order, restraint, but this hasn't always been the case. The Greeks valued excess, self-expression and inebriation, too.

I can think of a couple of Philosophers who believed that to truly own yourself, you have to shed the centrally imposed value system of Protestantism i.e. work, discipline, restraint etc - Nietzsche was one, Sartre another.

I suppose there's an element of the romanticist in me - I ain't no Puritan!

I had to cut this post short, Bull, as I'm travelling today, thanks for the reply: a question providing you have the time - god or animal, which would you rather be?

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to xBullx)

Post #: 6

RE: Self-Mastery - 12/24/2007 2:24:01 AM

NorthernGent

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Orion, Keira, Butch,

Thanks for the replies. I'm travelling today, and probably won't be on a PC 'til after the New Year, but I'll certainly come back to this thread.

Merry Christmas, and all the best for the New Year.

Beer, food, time off work, family, friends - you've got to be happy with that!

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 7

RE: Self-Mastery - 12/24/2007 2:53:37 AM

Termyn8or

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I don't know how tangental this is, but I am going to say what I am going to say.

To be a Master over another one first needs to master themselves. Take an interesting case in point that just came to me. (you will see)

Let's say I asm a thief, and your Master. There is something I want. I am not so stupid to just tell you go get it and get right back, a Master knows the limitations of those he Masters. I train you for weeks to pull off the job.And you get away with it.

Perhaps I should've warned you to put your drink down.

I am perhaps the most honest Man you will ever meet, but if you do not meet me, you are fair game. So my sub goes into training, she is now like a ninja, can fight, run and steal like a real pro. I send her out with my team for my personal holy grail.

Now wait, you didn't think I would send the crew out for a radiator cap for my 1967 VW did you ? Would I send a crew in that pretty much amounts to a SWAT team to steal me a loaf of bread ? You think I'm nuts ?

I came by leadership honestly, naturally. And I have one thing to say about true leaders, and it is here that the relevance of my post comes clear in relation to the OP. It is true that you have to think about yourself first, but when you lead, you must set that aside and think of those you lead first.

Leadership is not a good thing to persue, you are then responsible for the actions ogf others. Just ask Charlie Manson, he never layed a hand on anyone, but he is never getting out.

To master yourself is to set aside all of your personal goals. And that is required before you can master others.

Right now I am responsible for the actions of one peron, me. If I lead someone else, I am then responsible for their actions. Maybe not under the law per se, but under MY law, I am totally responsible.

We are supposedly a nation, indeed a world of leaders, but all I see is followers. Can't any of us put our petty desires aside and work for the common good ?

The fact is I have my doubts.

T

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 8

RE: Self-Mastery - 12/24/2007 9:42:26 AM

xBullx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
I had to cut this post short, Bull, as I'm travelling today, thanks for the reply: a question providing you have the time - god or animal, which would you rather be?

Howdy Gent,

I have actually pondered this before. Our minds leave us to believe that even a God has limitations he must endure, the creature "Q" of Star Trek fame comes to mind. The Greek Gods had certain immortal boundaries and even the Angel Michael was limited in his visits to Earth. This may in fact only be our self conceived state of consolation for not being allowed everything. Perhaps a God can be all we are and more. In that case…

But…

What if you had forever as your termination date, what if you couldn't imagine the vibrancy found within fear and uncertainty. Many of the factors that are discovered within our mortal beings might surely be found envious to a God.

I love the idea of magic or supernatural powers. But is that truly beyond the gifts of a man? I would love an expanded lifecycle; so many sluts so little time. I would also love to discover a more complete state of health.

So to respond honestly, I am not sure what perimeters a God would have to behold. But going with my present ability to assume, I would have to choose animal. The beast that I am is quite fulfilling and even in my trials I find great solace. To experience the fairer sex as only a man can; wow, what could be more pleasing to a God. Does a God even know pleasure? Just ponder the adventure of discovery that a man enjoys. Look at the thrill of quest that is life, and in that perhaps only available to the child-like state mind of the human animal. Taking that into consideration, it almost sounds boring to be a God. Most of us thrive on our own personal brands of adventure.

Using my belief system, I have to believe that both would have advantage, but restraining from the greed of having my cake and eating it, I would have to say, I am very happy in my own mortal flesh.

Wait, what about the Herculean effect? Could I get some of this half and half thing going on around here? That might prove rather awesome.

Live well, (And the Happiest of Holidays to you Good Neighbor)

Bull

< Message edited by xBullx -- 12/24/2007 9:44:21 AM >

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull

I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 9

RE: Self-Mastery - 12/28/2007 10:23:46 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: charmdpetKeira

This list appears to me as someone’s ethics being pushed off on others and has more to do with learning to follow the crowd than “mastering self”.

Agreed. We haven't always lived by that code - it was a response to the problems of the day i.e. corruption in the church, political exclusion etc.

quote:

ORIGINAL: charmdpetKeira

I am not sure I find “self-mastery” to be a reasonable goal to try to achieve, there are too many aspects being effected by constant change. Therefore, I am more geared toward constant improvement.

Agreed. We're operating with limited knowledge, and as knowledge is a moveable feast, it's difficult to know what exactly constitutes human nature - pessimists will argue war, adversary and order; optimists will argue mutual aid and liberty - so, I suppose we view the world as we see it rather than as it is, and this is underpinned by our personal experiences.

quote:

ORIGINAL: charmdpetKeira

I think the activities involved are dependent on the needs, interests, and goals of the individual. For me, it has been a process of introspect; tearing apart old beliefs to understand where they came from, inspecting them for inaccuracy, and adjusting accordingly.

'Sounds wise to me, and I'll add that allowing ourselves indiscretions is a good move - the perfect person doesn't exist. As you say, it's a learning process according to the available knowledge - it wouldn't make any sense to not reasses our values; as knowledge is gleaned, it follows that our understanding and values should alter accordingly.

quote:

ORIGINAL: charmdpetKeira

ps. I hope my train of thought didn’t jump track on you.

'Definitely not. Based on your post, we have a similar outlook.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to charmdpetKeira)

Post #: 10

RE: Self-Mastery - 12/28/2007 10:27:39 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

An eastern slant on things would be, the ability to do nothing when everyone else is trying to do everything.

I know zero about Eastern philosophy, so an explantion of the above will be appreciated.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Post #: 11

RE: Self-Mastery - 12/28/2007 10:33:09 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Hi NorthernGent

After these standards are set then yes I believe it is discipline that controls how to abide them.
Butch

Hello Butch,

Agreed in the sense that understanding comes before control; when you say discipline, in what sense? As an example of what I'm thinking, do you mean nature will require discipline to overcome conditioning?

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 12

RE: Self-Mastery - 12/28/2007 10:49:38 AM

kdsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Hello Butch,

Agreed in the sense that understanding comes before control; when you say discipline, in what sense? As an example of what I'm thinking, do you mean nature will require discipline to overcome conditioning?

I think that most know right from wrong but right is not always the easiest course to follow and often wrong is the wisest.

I think the ability to master your response to any situation and remain true to your personal standards and beliefs takes discipline. This discipline must overcome the minds natural emotional response and weigh actions against results....Something I often do NOT do.

Butch

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 13

RE: Self-Mastery - 12/28/2007 12:20:35 PM

NorthernGent

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‘Excellent read that, Bull, ‘thoroughly enjoyable. 'An advert for the animal if ever I saw one; mind you, if god isn’t sat in a Jacuzzi with 12 angels vying for his attention, then he’s not making good use of his armoury.

I’ve had more than my fill of the civilised being moulded according to society’s values, and it’s left me totally uninspired; this materialistic lifestyle: what a cop out; ‘dictated by fear of non-acceptance. Thrift, abstinence, hard work, family, possessions: I mean, a burrow owl can build a home, look after its young, take them a few worms and install satellite television on top of its nest; it’s not exactly plumbing the depths of human experience. I’ll take my chances with the raw animal from here on in.

Then again, unravelling 30 years of the system is going to be a fair old job; ‘should be an interesting journey, though, and if I’m not looking back in 30 years time and thinking I had a right old time, then I’ll be more than slightly disappointed. I like Sartre’s take on family, order etc: he laid his own foundations, which is easier said than done, as it will inevitably lead to big changes and the loss of old friends - intellectual freedom: a dream worth pursuing.

With regard to the fear comment, I have a different take on it. Fear can only shackle self-development: fear of the bank, fear of non-acceptance, fear of failure, fear of the next man; surely, growth requires security and security demands being free from fear.

All a matter for personal taste, though.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 12/28/2007 12:21:45 PM >

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to xBullx)

Post #: 14

RE: Self-Mastery - 12/28/2007 12:33:58 PM

popeye1250

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NG, I agree.
My mother told me that when my great grandfather came to the U.S. from Sligo, Ireland in the 1870's welfare was, "you don't work, you don't eat."
No "entitlement" programs in those days.
His first job in the U.S. was as a grave digger.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 15

RE: Self-Mastery - 12/28/2007 5:08:07 PM

OrionTheWolf

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Often the choice to do nothing, is a better choice. Many feel the need to do something, and in their haste, may make the situation worse. I have found that reacting or acting, is easier than doing nothing, and often there is nothing that can be done.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

An eastern slant on things would be, the ability to do nothing when everyone else is trying to do everything.

I know zero about Eastern philosophy, so an explantion of the above will be appreciated.

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 16

RE: Self-Mastery - 12/28/2007 5:19:09 PM

charmdpetKeira

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NortherenGent

quote:

Agreed. We haven't always lived by that code - it was a response to the problems of the day i.e. corruption in the church, political exclusion etc.

I am working on a theory that dispels ethics as I once thought of them; in terms of right/wrong, good/bad. I find your preceding post to Bull to be inspirational, as I had already discerned the only way to fight fear is to stop being afraid. Perhaps soon, I will feel confident enough to share.

quote:

Agreed. We're operating with limited knowledge, and as knowledge is a moveable feast, it's difficult to know what exactly constitutes human nature - pessimists will argue war, adversary and order; optimists will argue mutual aid and liberty –

I think the Byrds might have had a good point “To everything turn, turn, turn”.

quote:

so, I suppose we view the world as we see it rather than as it is, and this is underpinned by our personal experiences.[/quote

I am thinking along the lines of (perceived) experiences + environmental conditioning + personality / ability to reason = individual.

To me, the big picture looks like one of the most elaborate puzzles one could possibly imagine and the problem seems to result from individual pieces believing they constitute the whole puzzle.

quote:

'Sounds wise to me, and I'll add that allowing ourselves indiscretions is a good move - the perfect person doesn't exist. As you say, it's a learning process according to the available knowledge - it wouldn't make any sense to not reasses our values; as knowledge is gleaned, it follows that our understanding and values should alter accordingly.

No, it doesn’t make much sense to become an immovable piece, in an ever changing puzzle.

quote:

'Definitely not.

Good to hear, as I am well aware that my thought process naturally seeks systems and relativity, something that is not always as noticeable to others, and hey, sometimes, I’m just wrong. :)

quote:

Based on your post, we have a similar outlook.

Comforting in a way I can only hope you can imagine.

Edited because some how between here and there format got messed up.

k

< Message edited by charmdpetKeira -- 12/28/2007 5:21:49 PM >

_____________________________

Life is tough, that does not mean it isn't fair.

There is no wrong choice, only consequence.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 17

RE: Self-Mastery - 12/28/2007 5:53:22 PM

OrionTheWolf

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It is extremely difficult to unlearn all that society has taught you, as learned behavior. Tearing away and developing your own morals, based upon what you feel is best for you, is also extremely difficult, but something I feel is necessary. Learning the difference between guilt and shame, the difference between following your own path and accepting the consequences, and being sheep. Too many people allow society to determine their morals, without actually examining and determining for themselves what they consider virtues. Even if someone's moral code is in opposition to mine, if I see that they truly live by it, then I can find a measure of respect in that. I do not determine what is morally right or wrong, I determine what is the right and wrong thing for me to do.

Live well,
Orion

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 18

RE: Self-Mastery - 12/28/2007 5:58:31 PM

mnottertail

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I have taught myself to come on command using only my dominant hand and gutterally whispering to myself.

THAT is Self-Mastery, kids.

Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Post #: 19

RE: Self-Mastery - 12/28/2007 6:01:15 PM

charmdpetKeira

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I have taught myself to come on command using only my dominant hand and gutterally whispering to myself.

THAT is Self-Mastery, kids.

Ron

In that case, I too am self- mastered. lol

k

_____________________________

Life is tough, that does not mean it isn't fair.

There is no wrong choice, only consequence.

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 20

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