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RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/27/2007 7:09:23 PM   
Rover


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Noah

I stand with Rover here almost point-for point. The exception is in regard to his impression about the vast majority of dominants. I don't have enough information to speak one way another about the vast majority of dominants to form that kind of impression.


That's a valid point, and I have no statistics to support my contention that the "vast majority of Dominants" purposely engender dependence.  I'll settle for restating it as my impression that the vast majority do so.  That impression being based upon my own experiences and interactions with others, and not necessarily accurate in the whole.
 
John

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RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/27/2007 7:20:57 PM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline 		It's generally easier to manipulate females emotionally than intellectually in my experience. And it requires more work and imagination to do the latter ,as well.

So I tend to agree with you both-they do it for control with the  path of  least resistance.

< Message edited by Leatherist -- 12/27/2007 7:23:36 PM >

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RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/27/2007 7:37:52 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		One of the most beautiful experiences I had with my Daddy was allowing myself to break through my need to be independent and just be clingy.. as in literally laying on his chest and sobbing because I did not want to leave. I do not want to experience that feeling every day, but there is great value in showing another person just how much I count on him... it is something i had not allowed myself to show since I was a child...

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 12/27/2007 7:38:20 PM >

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RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/27/2007 7:47:29 PM   
KindLadyGrey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Noah


quote:

For some people, the notion that they are surrendering without that sort of net is key to the experience they seek. The whole "treasured pet/toy/(whatever) dynamic would ruin the experience if it ever reared it's tender, caring head.

If someone wants to post about the relationships which do happen to involve and even require the kind of caring the original poster refers to, that's fine. On the other hand, to state categorically that this kind of caring is a marker of all serious d/s relationships overlooks far too much. In addition it seems to smack of holding in low esteem any relationship which lacked this marker (as if it couldn't be "serious")


This is a good point, Noah, and I admit to not understanding such relationships in the slightest, as all of mine do involve a deep element of caring and commitment. I didn't even realize that I was revealing a personal bias here, but I certainly was.

That said, I still think my question is valid in many cases. The responses here have been very interesting so far!

< Message edited by KindLadyGrey -- 12/27/2007 7:48:12 PM >

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RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/27/2007 8:06:28 PM   
kitttty


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quote:


A thing which puzzles me is how anyone (including another respondent above) could ask how a dominant could ever do anything to a submissive which would cause the submissive agony. Of course Sadomasochism plays a large role in many d/s relationships, and the agony engendered in the masochist needn't be limited to the physical.


Master only engages in emotional sadism and does not seem to be very sadistic in terms of desiring to inflict physical pain.

I dont know if he understands the kind of intense agony being ignored causes me. I think the longest he ignored me was for four days and it was literally hell. He does not really ignore me anymore though.

I dont really understand many acts of emotional sadism.

Where exactly is the line between emotional sadism and abuse being that we are assuming the submissive actually feels emotional pain from the sadism?

For me, every act of emotional sadism is intriguing to me even though I dont directly derive pleasure from them with the exception of being ignored. I just plain fucking hate being ignored.



< Message edited by kitttty -- 12/27/2007 8:12:21 PM >

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RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/27/2007 8:07:01 PM   
Pasadena


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< Message edited by Pasadena -- 12/27/2007 8:08:43 PM >

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RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/27/2007 8:08:50 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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Status: offline 		Well I love what everyone else has had to say- and thanks to Rover for getting to the punch first again :)

But I will share that I have what we have come to call "pre separation freak outs" and one occurred today as I'm leaving for FOUR whole days.  Being so apart and separated really does just boil over my anxiety levels.

The good news however is that we've come to anticipate them now and this one was MUCH shorter and non personally directed as opposed to previous ones.  I'm sure I'll cry tomorrow some, but there's great progress.



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RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/27/2007 8:15:43 PM   
laurell3


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Well I love what everyone else has had to say- and thanks to Rover for getting to the punch first again :)

But I will share that I have what we have come to call "pre separation freak outs" and one occurred today as I'm leaving for FOUR whole days.  Being so apart and separated really does just boil over my anxiety levels.

The good news however is that we've come to anticipate them now and this one was MUCH shorter and non personally directed as opposed to previous ones.  I'm sure I'll cry tomorrow some, but there's great progress.




Even you are allowed to be human LA

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RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/27/2007 8:18:33 PM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam

quote:

ORIGINAL: KindLadyGrey
Is it such a terrible thing to be a clingy submissive when the very nature of submission encourages emotional dependence?


I don't agree that the very nature of submission is emotional dependence. In fact, I think that any relationship that encourages emotional dependence is unhealthy, lifestyle or not. So, in my opinion, yes, this is a terrible thing.

Master Fire



Agreed.  Regardless of the intensity of the relationship and play, I do not believe that emotional dependence is necessary or even desired and I think one has to be very careful never to lose themselves.  If someone choses to blow me off, well....I guess they'll soon find out how independent I can be because I don't find it acceptable.

However, I believe there's a big difference between saying I need more of your time and being "clingy".  There's also a big difference between going through a stressful, busy or hard time in one's life and blowing someone off.  Knowing where the line is, well that's always the question isn't it?


Normally I agree with both of you, but this time I do not, because of how I define "dependence... one definiton revolves around drugs and addiction.. the unhealthy kind... and here is the definition I apply to my dependance on my Daddy...

 
Here is Websters

1: the quality or state of being dependent; especially : the quality or state of being influenced or determined by or subject to another
2: reliance, trust
3: one that is relied on
 
I think that being "dependent" on someone emotionally means you have learned to rely on them, trust in them, that you may see yourself as counting on them.. you need them. I have always wanted that sort of relationship, I see nothing unhealthy in it. I have come to the conclusion that people need people and most of the people that believe themselves to be independent just aren't.. everyone needs others to get by, we need to rely on others... just the human condition.



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RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/27/2007 8:18:45 PM   
lovingpet


Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline 		This thread has a great many thoughts going through my head.  The simplest one has to do with these non-empathetic relationships.  I know for me, the trust still must be there, regardless of the Dominant's treatment of me in scene.  Caring is there for both parties, just in a different and, perhaps abbreviated form.  Out of scene is something different altogether.  Aftercare is non-negotiable.

This brings me to another point altogether.  Abandonment in the early moments to days (depending on the intensity of the scene) is not only abusive, it is down right neglectful.  Biological changes can, and do, occur during this period of which the Dominant must be aware and respond to appropriately.  If such a response is unavailable to the submissive, there is risk of injury or death due to some of these complications (once again depending on the scene and pre existing conditions of the submissive).  It is irresponsible to cut oneself off in such a manner.

Since I am not sure that is what we are talking about here, I must state that it is petty and immature to put someone aside who has large emotional investment without giving a reason and a duration if at all possible.  It is one thing if the person cannot express the reason and is unsure of the duration, but this too must be communicated.  It is rather basic manners and adult behavior, in my opinion.

I am sure that there will be disagreement, but I only offer this as my own opinion based on my own experiences, limited though they may be, out of the sorted mess of ideas that I am currently trying to unravel.

Warm wishes,
lovingpet 

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RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/27/2007 8:26:37 PM   
CalifChick


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Joined: 10/28/2007
From: California
Status: offline 		In the original post that spawned this thread, the sub was playing a guessing game as to what was wrong, and the Dom told her it was none of the things she was asking about, and that he had not told her the problem.

I guess I don't understand why he is not allowed to mull over whatever the problem is without her being clingy and whining and me-me-me-me about it.  Maybe it has nothing whatsoever to do with her and he just doesn't want to talk about it yet.  Is he not allowed that?  Or is she really in control?

Cali


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RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/27/2007 8:29:22 PM   
chickpea


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Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Los Angeles Area
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PanthersMom

clingy has its benefits and drawbacks.  too clingy and it is suffocating, not clingy enough and a person seems stand-offish.  like everything else in life, moderation is the key.  find what is comfortable for both parties through trial and error.  half the fun in life is the exploration of all its wonders.

PM

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam

quote:

ORIGINAL: KindLadyGrey
Is it such a terrible thing to be a clingy submissive when the very nature of submission encourages emotional dependence?


I don't agree that the very nature of submission is emotional dependence. In fact, I think that any relationship that encourages emotional dependence is unhealthy, lifestyle or not. So, in my opinion, yes, this is a terrible thing.

Master Fire



This post is of great interest.  And I agree with the above posts especially the ones I've quoted though they do have somewhat differing opinions.  I started my first journey into BDSM thinking that an independent spirit that is fostered and norished by your dom is the best way to be in a BDSM relationship.  Then I got involved with someone for several years who thought emotional dependence to be the best way to be in a BDSM relationship.  That dependence fostered such a deep and powerful bond.  I guess it depends on the individuals involved and their circumstances.  I think one way or another isn't necessarily bad and both could be good if done right. 

In this day and age ...at least in America, independence and outgoingness are thought of as the best traits, and dependence and introversion are thought to be a lesser qualities.  I think in a capitalistic society being independent and outgoing will increase your chances of survival and getting more (and who doesn't want more?).  But maybe the qualities of dependence and complacency can foster joy and happiness.  Don't complacent people appreciate what they already have around them (before it's lost) and don't continually neglect what they have while striving for more?  And don't a lot of submissives thrive on placing a great deal of trust on their dominants... I mean, getting tied up puts you in a situation of dependence and gives you a feeling that you don't just get being independent and outgoing (untied).  Just some food for thought.

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RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/27/2007 8:46:42 PM   
Rushemery


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Joined: 9/10/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PanthersMom

clingy has its benefits and drawbacks.  too clingy and it is suffocating, not clingy enough and a person seems stand-offish.  like everything else in life, moderation is the key.  find what is comfortable for both parties through trial and error.  half the fun in life is the exploration of all its wonders.

PM



I agree with this, I havent read everyones replys as of yet but I did read the post the op is talking about and do remember that that poster said her Dom got upset when she called when she wasnt suposed to and was still upset that she called when she was allowed to so she had set times she could call ( I am assuming he was at work)  so as I understand it she called  and broke a rule and then called when she was allowed to call again, she doesnt say how often this sort of thing happens just that hes been distant. He told her it wasnt any of the concerns that she had brought up so she basicly wasnt at falt.
I like a little clingy but when it goes too far like more than one call at work when there isnt a problem would begin to bother me a little. I only followed the post for a little while.
with me if i ask for space and dont get it I get grumpy to say the least 

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RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/27/2007 9:13:17 PM   
sambamanslilgirl


Posts: 10926
Joined: 2/5/2007
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		fast reply

i don't like being emotionally smothered by anyone including my dominants and vice versa.  so i don't tolerate anyone who needs to be constantly clingy or needy because people like that would drive me nuts. i enjoy and love my independence and free time alone to myself ...and so do my dominants.  on the flipside, there are times when i want to be held or snuggle but don't expect it all the time.

imho - "hand holding" and clinginess is something  that i would expect from UMs




< Message edited by sambamanslilgirl -- 12/27/2007 9:15:25 PM >

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RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/27/2007 9:21:33 PM   
hot4hotblkmen


Posts: 1
Joined: 12/27/2007
Status: offline 		what does clingy mean...we are taught to be dependent...then...accused of being clingy...not sure how that works.

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RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/27/2007 9:33:47 PM   
BiteGirl


Posts: 293
Joined: 4/27/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wisteriaV

I dont think that submission encourages emotional dependance at all. I choose how I feel and react to my environment. I love Master but his actions dont dictate what or how I will respond. If he says or does something I dont like I can not like it even when he makes a choice about stuff. I am not clingy at all and Master likes my emotional as well as intellectual dependance of him. He likes it when we join together emotionally and intellectual as well.


You chose how you feel and interact with your environment? How can you CHOSE your feelings? Out of curiostiy.

I think ignoring someone without giving reason, is quite imature in itself. A lot of players in the scene, I think, don't really understand it, and indeed how human beings work. I think this is a problem that is not limited to the scene, but also to people in general.

The general populas gets into heavy relationships regularly, living together, shairing things with each other that shouldn't be shaired unless they really trust each other, and then it all seems to fall apart on them, when really, the relationship was not ever been tested when you fell  into it. you simply put your whole weight in there without really knowing yourself or the other person. Or what either of you wanted.

And needy subs, there are a lot, and sometimes it's just how someone is, it's not simply they are needy because they are submissive. There are a lot of what I preceive to be needy doms, the ones who get angry when they are ignored, or when they are told that it's not working for you, and you need a break, they have a mixture of emotions which i think stem from needing to feel wanted. Needyness is a characteristic we all have to some extent, needing to be loved, respected and cared for, are nothing new and nothing exclusive to the scene.

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RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/27/2007 9:43:53 PM   
Rushemery


Posts: 310
Joined: 9/10/2007
Status: offline 		Clingy for  me means---calling constantly even when told not to, constantly asking whats the matter, freaking out when you ask for a min to breath --- freaking out means--crying and throwing a fit

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RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/27/2007 10:02:48 PM   
petpete


Posts: 677
Joined: 7/6/2007
Status: offline 		It sounds like a case of jealousy here, but just like everyone ofcourse the D needs and is entitled to there privacy. One can feel rejection at a time when the other needs privacy without them understanding so. But as a sub they should understand the behavioral patterns of there D and back off at there need of such an occasion.. Cheers..

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RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/27/2007 10:12:06 PM   
Kellendra


Posts: 95
Joined: 4/17/2007
Status: offline 		quote]ORIGINAL: Hergirl0824

quote:

ORIGINAL: KindLadyGrey

Is it such a terrible thing to be a clingy submissive when the very nature of submission encourages emotional dependence?




"interesting question as my Mistress and i were just discussing this today...our relationship is centered around emotional dependance to a certain degree but it comes from both sides of the slash, so to speak....we have bonded very closely and She has no problem expressing Her emotional need for me...i ,for one, am very emotionally dependant on Her...while She is not my entire life and i do have other outlets for my emotional needs, our relationship is one that is centered on our close friendship first and my emotional bond with Her stregthens not only our relationship but Her power over me....am i a clingy sub?  You bet i am! She knew this from the beginning and enjoys this aspect of my personality very much"



Beautifully said......


I, with a deeper instinct, choose a man who compels my strength, who makes enormous demands on me, who does not doubt my courage or my toughness, who does not believe me naive or innocent, who has the courage to treat me like a woman.
Anais Nin

And knows sometimes I am insecure in myself, in us....and is aware that I need to cling to Him and the knowledge of what I mean to him....SOMETIMES.
Mostly I give him lip, hassle and alot of  love....but I made sure he knew damn well what he was in for. And he loves me as I am...may not be perfect to say the least, but FOR him I am perfect....and that is a wonderful thing.

(I know Anais Nin quotes are cheesey to many...but often nothing says emotion like a bit of pure dairy) *grins*



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RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/27/2007 10:13:42 PM   
littlehumbledone


Posts: 72
Joined: 10/2/2007
Status: offline 		I have a horror of appearing clingy, so unfortunately I tend to always leave a little bit of reserve in reserve so to speak, and  i've been told that its obvious that i'm holding back a little bit, and i can't quite seem to find that balance, i'm positve it puts people off...




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