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Transference and D/s - 12/29/2007 8:12:32 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		The "Clingy Submissive" thread got me to thinking about something, and that is transference in relation to D/s.  In the other thread there were some that seemed to think that dependence was always a bad thing, and that it is unhealthy. So I looked up some information on the concept of transference because I wonder if it is always unhealthy to foster a sense of dependence in a submissive.

According to this theory we all have transference issues, if you have ever disliked someone because they reminded you of someone else, that is transference. Most of us are familiar with transference in therapy, where a person will take feelings they have for a parent or a spouse, and transfer them on to the therapist. This is so common, it is often seen as one of the first steps in developing trust between the patient and the therapist. The therapist, if they are a good and ethical therapist, will use these feelings to foster growth and help the patient heal issues.

Now I am not advocating that doms play psychology with their submissives, not at all. I am rather bringing the idea that some submissives possibly go through transference with their dominants after a period of time, and perhaps this happens because there is a deepening of trust. This possibly leading to feelings of dependence? I am not saying all D/s relationships experience this, I do not know, and frankly I do not want to argue about whether everyone goes through this, I am just throwing out there a new idea,  the possibility that this happens in many D/s relationships. Supposedly it happens in vanilla ones too according to what I have read, but since submissive live with a power imbalance transference can become magnified perhaps?

I think it might even be more telling to think of Daddy/girl relationships in this context... what do you all think?

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RE: Transference and D/s - 12/29/2007 8:25:25 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		In any relationship this is common. It's why women who were abused when young pick abusers as partners. They are familiar. I remember (showing my age here) Sonny Bono with his second wife on Johnny Carson, they were talking openly about their marriage problems. Because Cher cheated on him, he was crazy anytime the second wife wasn't available to locate. His feelings, undealt with from his first relationship, were transfered to the poor second who would get home from having coffee unexpectedly with a girlfriend to be treated to accusations, yelling and screaming.

Should the domly types do this purposefully? Not in my not so humble opinion. This kind of deliberate psychodrama should be left in the hands of professionals, not dealt with by people with no training. And if a dom is a therapist and does this? Then he could lose his license, you don't have sex with your patients and you don't treat family members. It's bad for everyone. Plus with types who don't have just a therapeutic hour relationship, but get angry, irritated etc the temptation to fuck with someone mentally will eventually be too great to ignore. Safer for everyone, and more ethical, if that slippery slope isn't touched upon, rather than setting off an unexpected avalanche.

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RE: Transference and D/s - 12/29/2007 8:29:07 AM   
velvetears


Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline 		Transference is a distortion and misplacement of feelings from a former person to a new one, the feelings don't really apply to the new person - it's a repetition of an old feeling in a new relationship.  If you react to someone in your present as if they were someone in your past - how can this be healthy or fair to that person?  Transference indicates some sort of problem with a core issue, identity problem, traumatic experience which gets revived and relived in a new setting/relationship.  i think it's common but i don't think it's healthy because it's  not genuine to the person you are with. 

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RE: Transference and D/s - 12/29/2007 8:37:35 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Transference is extremely common and it happens every day in all relationships people have. It is not healthy or unhealthy, it just is. How one uses it once they know it exists is where the unhealthy part comes in

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transference

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RE: Transference and D/s - 12/29/2007 9:05:23 AM   
velvetears


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Status: offline 		i disagree - if someone ascribes to me motivations, feelings etc based on a distortion from ones past, that cannot be healthy and imo should be brought out into the open and dealt with.  If i was beaten by my dad growing up and never dealt with that anger and then, in my adult relationship with a man, transfer that anger onto him because something he did revived this anger issue - how can this be healthy or fair to your partner? 

Not all transference is conscious - if it is unconscious how can it be dealt with?  Your partner won't know where the inappropriate feeling or emotions is coming from and if you are not conscious to it you cannot tell him.  i agree it's common and probably unavoidable but i don't think it's healthy.  i want what is between me and him authentic and free of ghosts from his past - they can no way help us in our future. 

< Message edited by velvetears -- 12/29/2007 9:07:24 AM >

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RE: Transference and D/s - 12/29/2007 9:23:03 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		If something is so much a part of our psychology that it is pretty much the norm, how can it be "unhealthy"? I see this as part of the human way of making sense of the world. We all generalize because it is conducive to understanding the world on some level. We brand all trees as being "trees", all cars we generalize as "cars"... it is kind of the way our brains function. Someone does something that reminds us unconsciously of another person, they on some level, become that other person.....

My Daddy reads psych journals and he told me that the reason we grieve people is because they become like a software program on our hard drive... and when they are suddenly missing, we cannot just uninstall them, they remain like a ghost in our machine. If one looks at it from this perspective, it could be kind of like people sharing file extensions with our neural pathways perhaps?

Usually something that is so ubiquitous to being human has roots in our biology and it is adaptive on some level.... perhaps the same is true for transference....

I also think that if people are aware of this when they do what it is that we do, they can use it to advantage, instead of having it be some unconscious thing hanging in the background.

Recently my Daddy bought me a piece of jewelry when we were out, and when he put it on my wrist I skipped my feet like a child... it was not until much later I remembered a scene from my own childhood that was quite similar, and caused me to do the same action. My Daddy did not know this when he slipped the babble on my wrist, but he certainly noted the reaction I had to it... this is the kind of thing I am talking about.

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RE: Transference and D/s - 12/29/2007 9:46:05 AM   
CelticPrince


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Status: offline 		jo,

First = an excellent post but probably deeper then many here will want to address. Yes I believe there is a transference that takes place naturally as a submissive learns she can trust a Dominant for her/his well being. Moreover the experience Dominant will accept it as such.

CP

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RE: Transference and D/s - 12/29/2007 9:49:17 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CelticPrince

jo,

First = an excellent post but probably deeper then many here will want to address. Yes I believe there is a transference that takes place naturally as a submissive learns she can trust a Dominant for her/his well being. Moreover the experience Dominant will accept it as such.

CP


I think that you are right. Many dominants probably realize their submissives have some transference, even if they do not call it such.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Transference and D/s - 12/29/2007 9:59:55 AM   
chellekitty


Posts: 3923
Joined: 3/27/2005
Status: offline 		i think the point that velvetears is trying to make is that when we hold people in our present responsible for the things done by people in our past, it is unhealthy...thats the type of transference that can not possibly be healthy...for me, it would be a ptsd reaction that i did not realize was a ptsd reaction and continued to act as if it were a rational thought process...if while i am having sex someone says something that reminds me of one of my rapists and i freak out and i don't realize what happens and from then on think that that guy was raping me...that is unhealthy transference...just because the phenomenon happens so often, doesn't make all occurrences of it healthy...infact, when reading the link posted on transference, the first definition is "the inappropriate repetition in the present of a relationship that was important in a person's childhood"...there is another definition i got from google that may fit this discussion better though..."The unconscious assignment to others of feelings and attitudes that were originally associated with important figures (parents, siblings, etc.) in one's early life. The transference may be negative or positive"

take care
chelle


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RE: Transference and D/s - 12/29/2007 10:01:01 AM   
velvetears


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Status: offline 		i don't look at transference as generalizing.  It's distorting reality - that's where our pov diverges.  If someone does something that reminds me of someone else, i recognize that for what it is and that  person doesn't become the other person. 

We generalize on a basic level to be able to learn about things but as we develop we understand there are makes and models of cars each with positive and negative qualities, we realize not every tree is the same and learn the names of them, where they grow, what each looks like etc.  We don't have an emotional investment in objects like cars and trees like we do people.  Objects can't get offended, argue back at us - i hate a certain tree because when i was two i feel off it's branch - no sweat for the tree it won't even be aware of it... i do that to a person and he/she won't have any clue why i am reacting the way i am. 

Transference might be common but in therapy it's considered a block that has to be dealt with before progress can be made in the therapeutic relationship.  A good therapist will recognize it and correct it.  i wonder how many doms want to have to be good at figuring out a persons transference projections onto the relationship.  i look at it - in the overall bgger picture as a barrier to real authentic closeness. 

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RE: Transference and D/s - 12/29/2007 10:07:17 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		here is the trouble...

quote:

Transference is a phenomenon in psychology characterized by unconscious redirection of feelings for one person to another. One definition of transference is "the inappropriate repetition in the present of a relationship that was important in a person's childhood
."

That is your working definition and it is valid... here is another way to use the word

quote:

Another definition is "the redirection of feelings and desires and especially of those unconsciously retained from childhood toward a new object."[2] Still another definition is "a reproduction of emotions relating to repressed experiences, esp. of childhood, and the substitution of another person . . . for the original object of the repressed impulses."[3]


The first puts the word "inappropriate", the next two do not. Also, objects are mentioned.

In studying racism, I came the conclusion that projection, transference, fear, and faulty generalizations all play a role, so perhaps I am mixing it too much for this conversation on just transference.

Edited to add, I am not saying transference is healthy or unhealthy or right or wrong... I am just opening the discussion on whether or not it is present in D/s relationships and how it can be acknowledged by the dominant in a way that is healthy... or improves the relationship...

On to work now.. be back later

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 12/29/2007 10:12:30 AM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

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RE: Transference and D/s - 12/29/2007 7:50:51 PM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline 		Transference happens everywhere. It doesn't really have anything to do with the lifestyle. That being said...

As far as Daddy/girl relationships, I think that singling that dynamic out doesn't tell the whole story. Every dynamic can have it...but every dynamic doesn't. But, is one kind of dynamic more likely than the rest? Quite possibly. I see a lot of it happen with Daddy/boy relationships in the gay community, especially if the Daddy is older and the boy is young. I don't know enough Daddy/girl or Mommy relationships to really be able to make an observation there.

I've been studying my own transference in the last several years. I ask myself why I like or dislike a person or situation as much as I do. When we react strongly to something, it's because we have it in us and don't want to believe it, be it a positive or negative trait (we deny the good about ourselves as much as the bad). It can be a pathway to real self awareness.

The thing is to remember: we never STOP doing it. We can't help but to transfer and project. But, being aware that we do it and looking as the underlying reasons is pretty powerful.

Master Fire


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RE: Transference and D/s - 12/29/2007 8:07:34 PM   
MasterFireMaam


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From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: CelticPrince

jo,

First = an excellent post but probably deeper then many here will want to address. Yes I believe there is a transference that takes place naturally as a submissive learns she can trust a Dominant for her/his well being. Moreover the experience Dominant will accept it as such.

CP


I think that you are right. Many dominants probably realize their submissives have some transference, even if they do not call it such.


And some of us realize that there WILL be. From one of my gurus, Master Skip Chasey:
"A Master is willing to stand in the middle of his slave’s projections about the Master without moving, neither supporting nor fostering the illusion, nor destroying it. "

I think he'd agree that this works in the case of transference, too. The part that was hard for me was the "nor destroying it" part. In the end, I realized that the slave is going to think and feel whatever they do no matter how I try to convince them otherwise. So, its up to them to face the illusion and see the transference and projection for themselves. It means that sometimes, I fall far in their eyes when the illusion is broken. It's a hard path to follow when you see it coming.

The important flip-side to that is that I don't foster the illusion, either...which is the idea that came to me head in the dependence thread.

Master Fire


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RE: Transference and D/s - 12/29/2007 8:09:16 PM   
daddyncherry


Posts: 656
Joined: 10/9/2007
Status: offline 		i definitely see the whole thing with transference in my life in general. As MFM said, if you see why you like someone or dislike them, and ask yourself why you may find that it is transference from something else.....i don't know that i'd say that it has everything to do with childhood situations (like the definition julia posted) i think that is only part of it...i think all of our experiences color us in some way like that...whether you transfer feelings/thoughts or not depends on you.

Example...i was with a guy who beat me....if i were to come across someone of his general descrition, i would totally dislike them off the bat. i know this, it has happened. It is so deep within me i can't even stop it...all i can see and think are about him.

Anyway...As far as my relationship goes...i think that i have some transference issues from my most previous past relationship, as far as trust and stuff go....but there is more to it.

What is it when it is like the opposite of transference? i don't "recognize" my Daddy and his ways from anything at all in my past...this causes alot of turmoil with me because i have nothing to go on. Someone mentioned a book to me before about this and it was in my old account so i no longer have it. :(....

Anyone have any ideas on this? Would be appreciated.


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RE: Transference and D/s - 12/29/2007 8:27:37 PM   
lighthearted


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Status: offline 		I've wondered about transference and sub frenzy, I think I even posted here asking about it.  it makes sense to me that a person would experience it more in a D/s relationship than a vanilla relationship.  (I know a lot of people say that D/s relationships are no different than vanilla ones, but mine have been.  I've examined them more closely than any other relationships in my life, analyzed them more.)

unfortunately, I'm not well-versed enough on the subject of psychology to elaborate.  I leave that to you expert-types  



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RE: Transference and D/s - 12/30/2007 2:57:27 AM   
ExSteelAgain


Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline 		If she likes me because I remind her of someone from her past who was good for her, then it is okay. If she starts to react in certain ways and do (or not do) specific things for me because she did those things for him, we will have a problem.

I’m actually the subject of an extreme case of transference with someone I work with. I wrote a little about it here a couple of years ago. It makes me uneasy because she is not reacting to me, but to an illusion that I’m not part of personally. I don’t know how to gauge my actions with her.

She is highly educated and understands it all very well and has told me that I look and act like this person who was very close to her, but died traumatically. We have become close friends and we both get what is going on, but it still leads to uncomfortable circumstances.

I once said something to her in a public, very critical professional situation that reminded her of something he used to say and she began to cry. I got it immediately and was able to salvage the situation by taking her away quickly under the guise of wanting to talk privately before it became embarrassing. She probably could benefit by seeing a psychiatrist, but I doubt she will because of complicated career reasons.

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RE: Transference and D/s - 12/30/2007 3:20:45 AM   
Prinsexx


Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

The "Clingy Submissive" thread got me to thinking about something, and that is transference in relation to D/s.  In the other thread there were some that seemed to think that dependence was always a bad thing, and that it is unhealthy. So I looked up some information on the concept of transference because I wonder if it is always unhealthy to foster a sense of dependence in a submissive.

According to this theory we all have transference issues, if you have ever disliked someone because they reminded you of someone else, that is transference. Most of us are familiar with transference in therapy, where a person will take feelings they have for a parent or a spouse, and transfer them on to the therapist. This is so common, it is often seen as one of the first steps in developing trust between the patient and the therapist. The therapist, if they are a good and ethical therapist, will use these feelings to foster growth and help the patient heal issues.

Now I am not advocating that doms play psychology with their submissives, not at all. I am rather bringing the idea that some submissives possibly go through transference with their dominants after a period of time, and perhaps this happens because there is a deepening of trust. This possibly leading to feelings of dependence? I am not saying all D/s relationships experience this, I do not know, and frankly I do not want to argue about whether everyone goes through this, I am just throwing out there a new idea,  the possibility that this happens in many D/s relationships. Supposedly it happens in vanilla ones too according to what I have read, but since submissive live with a power imbalance transference can become magnified perhaps?

I think it might even be more telling to think of Daddy/girl relationships in this context... what do you all think?


Yes. yes..
I am not trained in the analytical tradition ut no one escapes training in the psych. profesion unless they/we have a huge amount of analytical input. I havee (metaphorically) done Frued to death. Freud, feminism and fuck off is my motto. But ALL schools of psychological intervention, have, in my opinion, their particular concept of transference. Except the person centred which seekds to overcome this by training unconditional positive regard for persons/clients.
Now, outside of all of that, in my personal relationships I am not a therapost and therefore love my brakes to come off.
What went so deep and really got me in the frip of a deep submission last time was the way in which my Dom created and recreated the cruelty of my childhood. The fact that the cruelty came from my mother and not from my father made no difference. He fully admitted he transferred his feelings of dusgust etc onto me as he recounted some of those viscious and abusive things his mother did to him. I in turn got 'tiggerred' and transferred my feelings of sheer helplessness of s child intoo the scenes.
It wasn't role playing it was right back there and re-enactment of childhood for me and as far as I know for him also.
We are avoiding being together but I think the chemistry is compelling and we will not be able to spend much more time apaprt.
In my persobal opinion transference is unavoidable in bdsm and makes for that raw, 'non-role-play' connection.
I don't know why else I would so need the pain if pain hadn't been such a normal part of my life.
I disclaim any professional opinion here btw.
Grat thread.
Prin xxxxx

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RE: Transference and D/s - 12/30/2007 6:31:10 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I am enjoying all the responses, and I hope there are more, I am still thinking about how I want to respond to this thread because it is pretty deep stuff

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Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Transference and D/s - 12/30/2007 6:43:05 AM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline 		I dunno,the idea of being identified with someone's father is kinda squicky to me...........

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RE: Transference and D/s - 12/30/2007 6:50:25 AM   
sunshinemiss


Posts: 17673
Joined: 11/26/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Transference is extremely common and it happens every day in all relationships people have. It is not healthy or unhealthy, it just is. How one uses it once they know it exists is where the unhealthy part comes in

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transference


nothing but love for you juliaoceania, but you didn't seriously reference WIKIPEDIA for a definition of a real psychiatric/psychological term, did you?  Many universities are banning that website and do not allow it to be cited as a reference because it is not considered reliable.

May I offer this:

Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This
Main Entry: trans·fer·encePronunciation: tran(t)s-'f&r-&n(t)s, 'tran(t)s-(")Function: noun: the redirection of feelings and desires and especially of those unconsciously retained from childhood toward a new object (as a psychoanalyst conducting therapy)

I don't mean to be snarky or anything... I just was surprised.  (www.dictionary.com is my friend).
peace

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