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RE: Traditional vs Contemporary Domination - 1/2/2008 3:40:18 PM

LotusSong

Posts: 6334
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Domme Emeritus
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

Yes but WHO determines what is violence?
Jeff

Those who can file charges and those who can arrest you ...?

Unless we have a structure..and an *indisputable one that defines wiitwd to the masses.. you are as vulnerable as a new born babe.

* meaning- where someone finally says. "Oh.. I've heard of that.. I know what they are doing.. See? the submissive shows no signs of duress. ..even though she appears to be crying hysterically". then they can just move on. (but that has the possibility of happening as much as the sun will start to orbit earth. Becaaauuuuuuuuuuuuuse we are all just so individual and special that we don't have to CARE about the activity as a whole. With structure comes a source of security for all. JMO)

< Message edited by LotusSong -- 1/2/2008 3:41:38 PM >

(in reply to Jeffff)

Post #: 121

RE: Traditional vs Contemproary Domination - 1/2/2008 3:43:36 PM

Evility

Posts: 915
Joined: 12/19/2007
Status: offline

ORIGINAL: LotusSong
If you think there is no foundation, go to a leather conference once. They actually have contests :) Ask yourself.. how would they see MY type of domination or submission?

I couldn't care less what they think of my domination style or my opinion of submission. I think that most of those events are just freak shows (Trekkies in leather) and I'm sure they couldn't care less about my opinion of them, either. You really think one of those farcical leatherfests qualifies as a yardstick that everyone else should be measured by?

< Message edited by Evility -- 1/2/2008 3:46:00 PM >

(in reply to LotusSong)

Post #: 122

RE: Traditional vs Contemporary Domination - 1/2/2008 3:45:15 PM

Jeffff

Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline

thats called the LAW.... anything else is worked out between PEOPLE.individuals, who have individual thoughts.

Jeff

(in reply to LotusSong)

Post #: 123

RE: Traditional vs Contemporary Domination - 1/2/2008 3:53:29 PM

LadyHibiscus

Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline

I wanna be a leather Trekkie!

_____________________________

[page 23 girl]

(in reply to Jeffff)

Post #: 124

RE: Traditional vs Contemporary Domination - 1/2/2008 3:56:54 PM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
Status: offline

It is a disappointment you did not read the mail I forwarded to you Lotus, yet not unexpected. It did not try to appear an insulting as the one you sent me tried and failed to be.
So I will repeat it here. Simply answer the question, or move on. If Darcys' rules and structure intimidate you so much as you indicated, that is your responsibility to yourself you must deal with. I obey him - and write only as he desires. If that touches you in a negative way, then deal and move along.

the.dark.

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to LotusSong)

Post #: 125

RE: Traditional vs Contemporary Domination - 1/2/2008 3:59:58 PM

LotusSong

Posts: 6334
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Domme Emeritus
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Evility

ORIGINAL: LotusSong
If you think there is no foundation, go to a leather conference once. They actually have contests :) Ask yourself.. how would they see MY type of domination or submission?

I couldn't care less what they think of my domination style or my opinion of submission. I think that most of those events are just freak shows (Trekkies in leather) and I'm sure they couldn't care less about my opinion of them, either. You really think one of those farcical leatherfests qualifies as a yardstick that everyone else should be measured by?

Pretty much as farcical as Beat me in St Louis or The Folsom Street Fair, Thunder in the Mountains, etc. I guess.(And aren't Trekkies in Leather the Goreans???)

I find this thread amazing.. with all the defensiveness to the idea of a structure and definition. I truly didn't mean to make some of you feel threatened.

(in reply to Evility)

Post #: 126

RE: Traditional vs Contemporary Domination - 1/2/2008 4:05:37 PM

catize

Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline

quote:

Obviously, you're still working on that one?

Let's get back to the original gist of the post.. the need for and lack of a structure that defines wiitwd.

Do I understand you correctly? Are you saying that your OP was not in direct conflict with this, your latest offering, that we should mind our own business? That your OP does not declare what we do should be defined and structured by a governing body, and that someone else (you perhaps?) should be able to tell the rest of us how we should do things in order to be considered participants in the ‘lifestyle’?
Tell you what, you are invited to come watch when I next meet with one of the dominants in my life. Neither of them would object, in fact they would be delighted to have you present. You could wear a lab coat and carry a clipboard and check off everything we do and then stamp us as Approved or Not Approved to continue with our relationship. You could then go home satisfied that you have denied us entrance into the hallowed halls……. And we will keep on doing whatever it is that we like to do.

quote:

You are trying way too hard to find fault, sweety. LOL!

Oh, Darlin’, I haven’t had to work very hard at this thread at all. You have done most of the work burying yourself.

< Message edited by catize -- 1/2/2008 4:26:41 PM >

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to LotusSong)

Post #: 127

RE: Traditional vs Contemporary Domination - 1/2/2008 4:06:47 PM

LadyHibiscus

Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline

Whoa! No Goreans for me, thanks!

Was there something I should go back and read in this thread, or is it all Ultracranky?

_____________________________

[page 23 girl]

(in reply to catize)

Post #: 128

RE: Traditional vs Contemporary Domination - 1/2/2008 4:07:04 PM

camille65

Posts: 5746
Joined: 7/11/2007
From: Austin Texas
Status: offline

IMO it is you that comes across as feeling threatened. Many times by many people you've been asked to define or clearly state what you think the rules are. Instead of doing so you seem to only push an unformed opinion as the truth and the only truth that all of us must live by or perish.

_____________________________

~Love your life! (It is the only one you'll get).

(in reply to LotusSong)

Post #: 129

RE: Traditional vs Contemporary Domination - 1/2/2008 4:08:56 PM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
So...anyone care to explain to me what a bunch of gay men having sex back in the 50's has to do with my own personal sexual and relationship desires that were discovered prior to me ever hearing the phrase "Old Guard"?

No. Because they have nothing to do with it.

(in reply to MadRabbit)

Post #: 130

RE: Traditional vs Contemporary Domination - 1/2/2008 4:10:41 PM

SeeksOnlyOne

Posts: 2012
Joined: 5/14/2007
Status: offline

maybe they are

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

quote:

ORIGINAL: Evility

ORIGINAL: LotusSong
If you think there is no foundation, go to a leather conference once. They actually have contests :) Ask yourself.. how would they see MY type of domination or submission?

I couldn't care less what they think of my domination style or my opinion of submission. I think that most of those events are just freak shows (Trekkies in leather) and I'm sure they couldn't care less about my opinion of them, either. You really think one of those farcical leatherfests qualifies as a yardstick that everyone else should be measured by?

Pretty much as farcical as Beat me in St Louis or The Folsom Street Fair, Thunder in the Mountains, etc. I guess.(And aren't Trekkies in Leather the Goreans???)

I find this thread amazing.. with all the defensiveness to the idea of a structure and definition. I truly didn't mean to make some of you feel threatened.

i find it amazing that you actually probably believe the responses to this are because of folks feeling threatened.........you have had many good questions asked of you, and this is the best you can do?

enjoy living in that ivory tower you call home........im done here and feeling better about me that i did before trying to figure out your nonsense.....

_____________________________

it aint no good til it hurts just a little bit....jimmy somerville

in those moments of solitude, does everyone sometimes think they are insane? or is it just me?

(in reply to LotusSong)

Post #: 131

RE: Traditional vs Contemporary Domination - 1/2/2008 4:11:35 PM

MadRabbit

Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

.. and the lack of rules and structure is what is killing it now. When the public can't recognize play from violence... who's to blame? The ambiguity of it all for fear of being "made wrong" is the real BS.

Well...hmm...I'm glad you are the appointed representative of the public with accurate knowledge as to what billions of people associate BDSM with.

Personally, I don't have this degree of omniscience to be able to perdict adequately what the major consensus is about BDSM.

I can say that given the vast number of "vanilla" people I have come out to regarding my own kink and sadism, I have never once had anyone associate what I do with violence. I also happen to live in one of the most conversative cities in the U.S.

There is also friends I have made who are very open and very public as well as presentors and educators at local groups who all relate to me the same experience of being met with curiousity and intrique as opposed to fear and bigotry.

Sure, I suppose people like this do exist or if someone has a public or professional image to maintain, that it can cause personal embaressment and complications. I certainly don't indulge my personal sexual habits on a professional level, but hey that's no more than what others divulge with me.

I would even say that it can cause big issues in a divorce or custody battle, since in my personal experiences meeting people, it clearly has happened.

But these factors are a far cry from your projection above about how the mass public persecutes kinksters.

In case, your a little behind on the times, there is the amazing tool out there called...the Internet. In fact, your using it.

With a few keystrokes, anyone can have instant access to a huge database of BDSM pornography, stories, and educational information.

Don't forget the constant appearance and reference to kinky sex in sitcoms, movies, and music.

All thanks to all those people who are out there forming their own groups and doing their own thing and raping and pillaging from the dead gay men.

I would go as far to say that all these factors probably contributed to why the people I share my personal desires with don't associate my kink with violence, but....associate my kink with kink.

Your opinions might have had more accuracy 20 years ago, but unfortanely in the modern times with all us hip swingsters, your talking out your ass

Edited to Add : The real B.S is people like you toting this garbage and causing even more irrational fear in kinky people.

< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 1/2/2008 4:15:43 PM >

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to LotusSong)

Post #: 132

RE: Traditional vs Contemporary Domination - 1/2/2008 4:21:17 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

I am puzzled because this is not the first time you have suggested that I am ‘too young’ to know what’s good for me. I’ll be 55 years old in a few months. Age really has nothing to do with the validity of an opinion. I don’t believe that youth necessarily equates to stupidity, nor do I believe that age is a guarantee of wisdom.

ROFL... hell... take it as a sort of compliment! .oO(Geez, all this egg is going to be a mess.)

I thought she was younger than she is too, mainly because she has a progressive outlook and sense of humor.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Padriag)

Post #: 133

RE: Traditional vs Contemporary Domination - 1/2/2008 4:28:42 PM

MadRabbit

Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

Ds does not have to include BDSM. For some Ds relationships, BDSM is an absolute. For some it is not.

I do not have rules. Darcy does. Those are what are submitted to, not convention.
Everyone has rules and their own structure. Not everyone is conventional.
Your retort makes no sense.

And you still have not defined the programme so I will assume this is because there is no definition. That indicates that there is no specific rules or st
structure for a definition would exude these as a quality pertaining to this 'programme'. If there was - surely you would be able to define them.

the.dark.

When I came to this all... the rules (unspoken as they were..well, some were posted)

Discretion.. the whole world doesn't need to know your "business". What happens in the dungeon, stays in the dungeon.

Privacy

Simple manners

Be prepared to "write the check" if you fuck up.

You have a right to be selective of those you wish to interact with.

Mind your own business,

All the rules you have listed are rules that pertain to social dyamics of a group and have absolutely nil to do with two people in an individual relationship.

Now, if you don't mind, I would be interested to know how the public becomes more aware and understanding of kink when the kinky people create huge walls of discretion or privacy that prevent anyone from knowing that kinky people actually exist.

Have you ever considered...maybe...that the unspoken rules regarding discretion only served to keep the public ignorant of what kink was all about, since amazingly, they didn't know any kinky people to relate with on a personal level?

Have you ever considered that perhaps the reason why kink is less stigmatic in 2008 is due to all those outlandish rebels who broke the "rules" and put themselves in the spotlight?

Apparently, the solution to solving the issue of kink being associated with violence is for everyone to follow a list of unspoken rules that only serve to keep kink exclusive and hidden from the public view.

Edited to Add : At this point, given that you have listed two agendas that are in diametric opposition to one another one, I can just step out of the debate and let you battle with yourself.

I look forward to your next enlightened post of elderly wisdom. I am sure you will somehow out do yourself.

< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 1/2/2008 4:33:04 PM >

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to LotusSong)

Post #: 134

RE: Traditional vs Contemporary Domination - 1/2/2008 4:31:11 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong
About boxes... ever work in an office that didn't have assigned mail slots? Either the mail ends up in one big pile waiting for the recipient to find it or someone has to hand deliver it to each and every addressee which is rather a big waste of time and lays the responsibility on one person or department.

Mail is simple. There is a name on it, and the name goes into its corresponding box without any thought. Humans are a bit more multidimensional than that so the "boxes" are very subjective, according to all sorts of determinants.

Then again, there ARE "simple" boxes in which to put people without consideration for anything but their name or number. It's called prison.

Simple boxes are for simple people

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 135

RE: Traditional vs Contemporary Domination - 1/2/2008 4:36:37 PM

catize

Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline

quote:

I thought she was younger than she is too, mainly because she has a progressive outlook and sense of humor.

Awww, that was very sweet, JuliaOceana! <hugs> for making my day brighter!

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 136

RE: Traditional vs Contemporary Domination - 1/2/2008 4:42:43 PM

Padriag

Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

Yes but WHO determines what is violence?
Jeff

Those who can file charges and those who can arrest you ...?

Unless we have a structure..and an *indisputable one that defines wiitwd to the masses.. you are as vulnerable as a new born babe.

Still very naive of you. First, definining what is and isn't violence, or more to the point abuse, in this lifestyle isn't so easily done. To create the kind of legal protection you're talking about would require legally recognized forms of consent, and that in turn would require overturning a lot of previous legal precedent. Further you'd have to directly battle with various lobbyist groups, feminist being one such, fundamentalist christians being another likely one, to get that legislation changed. Then of course would come questions of having such legal consent forms to be properly witnessed and notorized to avoid questions of duress (else a rapist could force a victim to sign such an agreement). Then would come questions of medical insurance liability, who pays for what, and eventually that means dominants might be required to be registered, insured and licensed. All for what, so you can stop worrying about the police?

Then lets revisit this next question. Who makes these rules? What governing body? Are you proposing some national or international organization? Under what sort of charter? How are its officers elected? What about those who don't want to join, do you just brand them as heretics? Suppose this organization doesn't approve of you... what then? I don't think you have really thought through what you are proposing, evidenced by the lack of any concrete answers to these sorts of questions posed by others. Instead you seem to be venting some personal angst regarding what you apparently view as the "undesirable" elements that have crept into your "purer" vision of what this lifestyle is supposed to be.

I really doubt anyone here feels threatened by you or your ideas. Some of us are perhaps a little surprised at the tone you've taken. Frankly, I actually had thought you were a better person than you've shown yourself to be here. If there's anything here that troubles me, its that simple disappointment.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to LotusSong)

Post #: 137

RE: Traditional vs Contemporary Domination - 1/2/2008 4:46:53 PM

domiguy

Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline

Without rules we would be lost....

"It's more of a guideline than a rule." -Ghostbusters

What the fuck is wrong with the folks out here?...Rules! Rules! Rules!

From now on I'm only eating pussy one way!!! The right way!!! If you don't like it....Tough shit! Your gash obviously didn't read the handbook. I can't be held responsible for your nonresponsive salmonsocket.

Why don't you want me? I followed all of the rules...

I am Jack's inflamed sense of rejection.

< Message edited by domiguy -- 1/2/2008 4:47:51 PM >

_____________________________

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 138

RE: Traditional vs Contemproary Domination - 1/2/2008 4:52:49 PM

kitttty

Posts: 494
Joined: 10/10/2007
Status: offline

I do not see much of a problem in that the vanilla world sees kinksters as abusive and starts reporting scenes.

Funny story. I had a very vanilla ex who wasn't abusive, but became a stalker. When I took him to court to get the restraining order, he tried to tell the court that I was messed up because I was into SM and man did he have some damning evidence. The court didn't listen for one second and told him that I could do whatever I wanted with myself and slapped him with the order with no problems.

Thus, the vanilla world isn't as out to get us as some would like to think.

I do not think it is a bad idea though for some qualified professionals to go interview hundreds of submissives who feel they have been abused while in the lifestyle. It would be nice if they could come up with a list of warning signs of an abusive relationship specific to the BDSM world and if they could gather advise on how to counsel people in such relationships.

I do not think the warning signs in vanilla relationships are necessarily the same.

Here is a basic list for vanilla standards-

http://www.recovery-man.com/abusive/abusive_signs.htm

I think sometimes things might be different for SMers. Ex, perhaps the jealousy thing might in some cases be replaced with Doms that place excessive pressure on subs to serve others- loaning them out etc when the subs feel coerced.

There is also a fine line between exploitation and financial slavery and I bet there are plenty of burned individuals that can give a rough idea of where that line lies.

The laws do not have to change. Rules do not need to be put in place. But I think society has come a long way from calling domestic violence a personal domestic issue. It is because some people chose to raise awareness on how the outside world needed to play a part in helping victims of abuse.

It would be nice if there were some way of determining abuse in the lifestyle so at the very least, a person could do their own research on line and determine for themselves if their relationship was likely to be dangerous.

(in reply to RCdc)

Post #: 139

RE: Traditional vs Contemporary Domination - 1/2/2008 4:59:43 PM

RedMagic1

Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

.. and the lack of rules and structure is what is killing it now. When the public can't recognize play from violence... who's to blame? The ambiguity of it all for fear of being "made wrong" is the real BS.

I can say that given the vast number of "vanilla" people I have come out to regarding my own kink and sadism, I have never once had anyone associate what I do with violence. I also happen to live in one of the most conversative cities in the U.S.

I am not in the closet either. Not once has anyone thought I was "violent". Instead, people are curious and respectful. This might be because over half my Platonic friends are women, and anyone can see I'm not abusive or some kind of girl-hater. They'd be more worried if I told them I were a swinger, to be perfectly honest.

The local police did a presentation at a BDSM group here some months back. They said they can always tell the difference between a scene and a domestic dispute. Why? All the dishes, furniture, other belongings are neatly where they should be in the middle of a scene. Only the person is getting hit. In actual marital strife, there's busted stuff all over the place. Even the Law can tell the difference between two people who care for each other and two people who are going nuts.

(in reply to MadRabbit)

Post #: 140

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