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RE: Traditional vs Contemporary Domination - 1/2/2008 5:16:34 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

I find this thread amazing.. with all the defensiveness to the idea of a structure and definition.  I truly didn't mean to make some of you  feel threatened.  

 
I do not think it is "fear" that you are encountering, but as someone noted earlier, a feeling that we are adults and we can do what we like. You realize that some people like running their own thing, and resent others telling how to live their life. If I were to impose my standards of how I live on to you, you would probably dislike it.

As far as people living their lives in such a way as to think that they embarass the leather community to the larger vanilla public, and that us outliers are somehow reflecting badly on your public acceptance and your public image... I just can't see that as being so. I would even venture to say the way to gain mainstream acceptance is by living like a normal person most of the time, and allowing certain people in on how one chooses to live... who is going to seem more acceptable to the vanilla world, the nurse who is married to her "master", wears a collar under her smock, but seems like everyone else in the world... or some leather wearing, whip wielding pervert that goes to conventions to win "leatherman" awards based on criteria the mainstream public is not even cognizant of?

Personally, both are acceptable to me, but I think most people are going to understand that their neighbor who has a D/s relationship but is just like them, as opposed to slave/mistress balls or teas with high protocol.... just my thoughts on it.

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 1/2/2008 5:18:13 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to LotusSong)
Profile   Post #: 141
RE: Traditional vs Contemporary Domination - 1/2/2008 6:10:38 PM   
kelbel30


Posts: 1
Joined: 8/24/2005
Status: offline 		    Wow this is a long thread and my first post so am not sure where to begin.  When I think of rules, because I am submissive I immediately think of what my Master likes and how he likes it.  When someone is in a relationship where there is a top and bottom there is a committment there to honor and respect and cherish and protect and serve that relationship.  (Reminds you I am speaking of a relationship not a one time scene.) 

I do believe that no matter how submissive another person may think someone who claims to be submissive is the goal of the submissive is to please the Master.  The Master has a duty to communicate what pleases him.  (Yes I understand there are Mistresses too not meaning to leave you out just not into typing all that much!)  If a Master is communicating what pleases him these are the guidelines........in other words lotus dear........the RULES that are being lived day to day.

One of the amazing things about BDSM relationships in general is that there are so many levels and so many different people that the rules cannot be absolute they have to be flexible in order to accomodate all who are involved.  I am not sure why anyone feels the need to judge the relationship of another.  Considering that someone can be from 1% into BDSM to a full 100% the way things work for each relationship is so individual and so different it would seem impossible to me for any one person to tell any one other person how to live and if they are living BDSM wrong or right, etc.

I would like to give a shout out to the younguns.  I am 38 and realized my submissiveness at 30.  I see in my local community people getting into this in their mid twenties and I am frankly jealous and wish I had a clue then what this was all about and why I was so different.  I think with people new to the lifestyle, younger or older, as well as people not involved in the lifestyle and who do not have a good understanding of it, it is the our job to share with them in the most gentle way if they are curious what this lifestyle is about.

I wear a ring with the bdsm symbol on it everyday.  I come across some people who know what it means and I also get a lot of people who ask me what it means.  (Some of them have seen it just arent sure, etc.)  It is always fun to me to share my lifestyle with anyone who is willing to hear about it......I say willing here because one does have to practice discretion and consider the subject they are sharing. 

I think it is in every submissive's nature to want to please the Master.  And I also think if the Master is pleased then quite frankly there isn't anyone who can say that is wrong.  As far as the Old Guard issues, they sound more like proper ways to conduct yourself in public.  Hopefully most of us know that already and do not need to find the BDSM lifestyle to learn it. I do think that a lot of the old "Protocol" is changing but I also think that is because a lot of people are more able now to live the lifestyle more openly than before and quite possibly more comfortable because of this so the approach is moving to a more relaxed approach.  This is not disrespect it is just a change that with the growth of this lifestyle is possibly inevitable. 

I know that personally I am extremely comfortable with who I am, would never wish to disrespect anyone in the lifestyle or out of it, and prefer a more laid back and easy going approach to this lifestyle.  Doesn't mean I am not submissive, just means my life might not be quite exactly the same as anyone elses.  That is true in any life though so not really sure why it would be such a big deal.

So that is my two cents.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 142
RE: Traditional vs Contemproary Domination - 1/2/2008 6:13:44 PM   
Griswold


Posts: 2739
Joined: 2/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

Perhaps we need to revisit the concept.  I think what people mean by a "true"  domination is one with a more traditional approach.  Guys want Betty Page (it doesn't matter if she can do shit or not..she just has to look the part)  


(I'm actually good with that).

(in reply to LotusSong)
Profile   Post #: 143
RE: Traditional vs Contemporary Domination - 1/2/2008 6:42:56 PM   
ImpGrrl


Posts: 575
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

quote:

ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne
so TNG groups never discuss the following in their meetings and relationships?

bdsm
d/s
m/s
s&m

<snarkiness deleted>


I would hope so! .. and enjoy it in their OWN world.


I am on the board of a TNG group.

I'm also a member of a leather family, and ID as a leatherdyke.

The two are not separate.  They are not different things.  TNG represents an *age* group - not a new, separate community that flouts your "rules". 

Which, by the way, don't exist.  Not universally.  Not applicable.

(in reply to LotusSong)
Profile   Post #: 144
RE: Traditional vs Contemporary Domination - 1/2/2008 7:12:56 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong
No booze or drugs

No one under 21.

I'm all sorts of confused, Lotus is supposedly championing the roots of modern bdsm with all their rules and standards of the leather culture...and yet suggesting that booze or drugs weren't involved?

Someone isn't remembering history or is trying to have their fantasy history cake and eat it too.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to LotusSong)
Profile   Post #: 145
RE: Traditional vs Contemporary Domination - 1/2/2008 7:20:37 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Someone isn't remembering history or is trying to have their fantasy history cake and eat it too.


that's what happens when one breaks the rules and dapples to much in the alchohol and drugs...

they start to have deluding thougts and embelished fantasies

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 146
RE: Traditional vs Contemproary Domination - 1/2/2008 7:21:33 PM   
DominaSmartass


Posts: 961
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: This month? Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

Some of this change has been technological, for example the invention of mass-producible male chastity devices, which allowed for heightened Femdom/malesub dynamics. 


[/qupte]

Funny, I don't know all that many women (maybe 1) who are into using such devices. It's generally the men who are begging to be put in them, in my experience. Not exactly what I called female dom heightened pleasure....


quote:


"Bad" news: the "Old Guard" notions don't have much basis in fact.


Without trying to sound condescending (honestly) just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The idea of "Old Guard" can be as factual or as fictional as you imagine it to be but it really depends on what crew you hang out with whether or not you've encountered people with the legitimate right to claim "Old Guard" knowledge. Generally speaking, whatever generation came previously is the old guard, and they never knew they were till some young person said so. Don't know why this has become such a buzz word but the fact of the matter is that there are and were people who lived in the way that "Old Guard" connotes. It's kind of like the supreme court definition of "obscenity" - I can't describe it but I know it when I see it.

Oh yeah, back on topic...I agree. I'm tired of the entire "community" endorsing complete moral relativism. I posted something really detailed about my thoughts a while back but the thread ended up getting deleted and I can't figure out if there's any trace of my words.


_____________________________

“These S&M people ... they are bossy! There’s also a creepy connection between leather sex, ‘Star Trek’ and the Renaissance Faire.”

- Comedian Margaret Cho

(in reply to RedMagic1)
Profile   Post #: 147
RE: Traditional vs Contemproary Domination - 1/2/2008 7:39:31 PM   
DominaSmartass


Posts: 961
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: This month? Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I respect the leather culture, but I wouldn't insult any of them to suggest their culture has anything to do with me. 



As usual, LA hits the nail on the head. I can not emphasize this point enough: just because you are kinky, into bdsm, domination and submission, mastery and slavey, bondage, knifeplay, or hot wax, or *anything* and *everything* does not mean you are into Leather as in "The Leather Community" (insert lifestyle, culture, scene, whatever.) This is not meant to be an insult, it's just the truth. In the same way that enjoying the outdoors and camping does not make one a boyscout either. Someone can dress up as a boyscout and put on all the nice merit badges but if they try to go to a boyscout conference they will be treated as some sort of impostor unless or until they can gain acceptance and learn the customs and traditions of the group, finally being considered one of the group's own. So yeah, you can just elect to join a boyscout troup but joining the Leather community generally involves certain common things (i.e. having a mentor, learning about the history and traditions, earning leather from a community elder or group) and along with that comes acceptance as a peer by others in the community (whether that be local, regional, national, etc.) People in the Leather Community *do* care what others in the community think of them because they rely on that external fabric to be a part of what it is they are a part of. This doesn't mean that it's any better than just being in a D/s relationship or going to munches or whatever it is that makes *you* happy, it's just different. No need to voice your opinion against Leather culture, just realize you're not a part of it and that's ok because not everyone *wants* to be a boyscout - some people like to camp by themselves, with their own rules :)

_____________________________

“These S&M people ... they are bossy! There’s also a creepy connection between leather sex, ‘Star Trek’ and the Renaissance Faire.”

- Comedian Margaret Cho

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 148
RE: Traditional vs Contemproary Domination - 1/2/2008 7:43:31 PM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline 		DominaSmartAss, not only has this thread gone on for 5 pages in a completely different direction, but also -- I presented fact, you presented opinion.  I just looked at an intro forum at ChastityLifestyle.com, and about 30% of the posts were by women.  My (female) friend J, who I just saw a few days ago, owns *two* CB-x000s.  And last I checked, "The idea of 'Old Guard' can be as factual or as fictional as you imagine it to be" translates into English as: "the phrase has no meaning outside of someone's personal opinion."

I'm a scientist.  I deal in things that actually exist in the real world.  I am glad to see that most of the people posting on this thread share my prejudice.

< Message edited by RedMagic1 -- 1/2/2008 7:52:51 PM >

(in reply to DominaSmartass)
Profile   Post #: 149
RE: Traditional vs Contemporary Domination - 1/2/2008 7:46:24 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

quote:

ORIGINAL: kitttty

Is that really a problem?

Are there cases of coercion and abuse that the BDSM community (whatever that is) turns a blind eye towards because they feel that others might like it?

I mean, I can see that happening and that would be a problem indeed.

I personally have not noticed excessive physical brutality imposed on reluctant subs.


What I meant was.. when a "scene" is discovered between two people.. or someone hears about it and calls the police to investigate.. the "lifestyle" always comes out on the short end of the stick because.. there are no definitions by which proves something is consensual or not other than the word of the "victim" which COULD be coerced.. it's a hard call.  They will always err on the side of worst case scenario.
 
and to Padriag.. please don't bastardize my post. 



No, what we do is not legal in most places, no rules would change that, ever.  You will never make wiitwd acceptable to society, stop trying.

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to LotusSong)
Profile   Post #: 150
RE: Traditional vs Contemporary Domination - 1/2/2008 8:13:49 PM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong
No booze or drugs

No one under 21.

I'm all sorts of confused, Lotus is supposedly championing the roots of modern bdsm with all their rules and standards of the leather culture...and yet suggesting that booze or drugs weren't involved?

Someone isn't remembering history or is trying to have their fantasy history cake and eat it too.


I guess in all her wide varieties of experiences and gathered worldly knowledge of the "One True Way" of BDSM, she forgot to attend any history seminars on the "good ole days"  so she has some clue what in the hell she is talking about when she preachs about them.

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 151
RE: Traditional vs Contemporary Domination - 1/2/2008 8:35:23 PM   
kitttty


Posts: 494
Joined: 10/10/2007
Status: offline 		Not legal in most places?

What are you doing? Nailing your brother?

(in reply to laurell3)
Profile   Post #: 152
RE: Traditional vs Contemporary Domination - 1/2/2008 8:49:53 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		Cute, but inappropriate for the forum.  If you don't know what assault and consent are, study harder kittty.

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to kitttty)
Profile   Post #: 153
RE: Traditional vs Contemporary Domination - 1/2/2008 9:06:49 PM   
kitttty


Posts: 494
Joined: 10/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

If you don't know what assault and consent are, study harder kittty.


If you're assaulting people, then well, no, that's not legal in most places. If you aren't assaulting people, then its legal.

Im not understanding if you are implying that you personally engage in some illegal activity or if you believe that BDSM in general is not legal.

Cuz BDSM is plenty legal.

(in reply to laurell3)
Profile   Post #: 154
RE: Traditional vs Contemporary Domination - 1/2/2008 9:09:42 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kitttty

quote:

If you don't know what assault and consent are, study harder kittty.


If you're assaulting people, then well, no, that's not legal in most places. If you aren't assaulting people, then its legal.

Im not understanding if you are implying that you personally engage in some illegal activity or if you believe that BDSM in general is not legal.

Cuz BDSM is plenty legal.


If you actually read the post that you quoted me from, you may get the point here.

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to kitttty)
Profile   Post #: 155
RE: Traditional vs Contemporary Domination - 1/2/2008 9:24:48 PM   
kitttty


Posts: 494
Joined: 10/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

No, what we do is not legal in most places, no rules would change that, ever.  You will never make wiitwd acceptable to society, stop trying


I do not understand. We as in the royal we? Or we as in you and your partner?

I know that whatever I am doing is legal.

(in reply to laurell3)
Profile   Post #: 156
RE: Traditional vs Contemporary Domination - 1/2/2008 9:29:58 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kitttty

quote:

No, what we do is not legal in most places, no rules would change that, ever.  You will never make wiitwd acceptable to society, stop trying


I do not understand. We as in the royal we? Or we as in you and your partner?

I know that whatever I am doing is legal.


sigh..................ok acronyms in the lifestyle don't apply to you....got it....................not paticularly applicable to the post, but thanks for sharing that.

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to kitttty)
Profile   Post #: 157
RE: Traditional vs Contemporary Domination - 1/2/2008 9:40:38 PM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline 		Kitty, what Laurell refers to is the fact that there is a certain legal ambiguity regarding various BDSM activities.  Take flogging... it could be viewed as nothing more than kinky play... or it could be viewed as assault.  Initially its up to the discretion of the officer on the scene.  After that it goes before a magistrate... and if it still is in question a court date is set and it goes before a judge.  This is the case for most of the US.

So imagine you're having a lil kinky fun at home or a motel with your partner.  Someone hears noise, perhaps screaming or crying, and with the best of intentions calls the police.  Most likely a pair of officers are dispatched to investigate, they knock, some awkwardness follows as the officers ask questions and look around.  Here's where things can potentially go awry...
  • If the officer in charge at the scene feels there's no problem (assualt, domesitc dispute, rape, etc.) then they leave with perhaps a warning to keep the noise down.
  • On the other hand if the officer in charge is concerned about bruises, welts, cuts, etc. someone could be hauled off in cuffs and possibly also a rape counselor or similar case worker called in.
  • Now its up to the magistrate to listen to what happened and acertain whether any real legal action is warranted.  If s/he thinks not, you're free to go and at least here the officer will give you a ride back home.
  • On the other hand if the magistrate feels that something illegal may have occurred he may order someone held over for trial, or set bail and in either case set a court date.
  • If that happens you then have to get a lawyer and go before a judge and hash the whole thing out yet again.

Now... most times someone who keeps their wits can likely explain things and may never even make it so far as a magistrate... but even so there are a couple of chances to talk your way out of any legal charges before any harges are actually filed.  However, the fact that it is possible to be arrested for this stuff scares the hell out of some people.  Personally, I've never worried about it.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to kitttty)
Profile   Post #: 158
RE: Traditional vs Contemporary Domination - 1/3/2008 9:09:14 AM   
MistressOfGa


Posts: 2929
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Someone isn't remembering history or is trying to have their fantasy history cake and eat it too.


that's what happens when one breaks the rules and dapples to much in the alchohol and drugs...

they start to have deluding thougts and embelished fantasies


KoM,
I would like to compliment You and Your girls for the fabulous new photos. They are truly beautiful.
 
Lotus,
I read this entire thread and somewhere in the middle of it, your views on your own OP changed. I am not sure what this thread is about anymore. But like a bad movie, you still want to see the end of it, if for nothing else, to return it back to the store. Thanks for the entertainment though <hugs>

_____________________________





(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 159
RE: Traditional vs Contemporary Domination - 1/3/2008 1:17:04 PM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline 		I have three basic rules that work for me and whoever I partner with...I have discussed them before so will put them in short form here.

1.  Courtesy and civility.  If you expect me to treat you with dignity, then do the same.

2.  Patience and understanding.  If you expect it from me because you are not perfect, then trust me when I say I expect it from you because guess what?  Shocker of shockers...I am not perfect either.

3.  Communication.  I am not a mindreader nor a psychic nor a body language expert.  I will tell you what I am thinking and what I am feeling and I expect you to do the same, using the first two rules cited above.

Those three rules and the basic premise of "There is room for two partners in this relationship but only one leader...and it is not you" make it pretty easy at the start.  All other rules and structure of the relationship get more complicated but flow from those 4.  Do I believe in them?  Yes.  Do I believe in a structured relationship more than a haphazard one?  Yes...but the structure comes from my rules and our wants and needs and desires.  Some people think I let my submissive partner kid around with me too much.  But just as sure as there are those who think that, you can bet there are others who...were they to observe me in a serious conversation with my submissive or any submissive partner about a serious subject...would think that I was too darm hard or rigid or structured or narrow-minded.  You have to find what works for you.  It is my belief that what others have learned before me through trial and error might have some good perspective to bring to the equation but it is still me that has to process and use it. 

(in reply to MistressOfGa)
Profile   Post #: 160
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