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RE: Defining Victory in Iraq - 1/4/2008 4:12:54 PM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

I cant recall why in the 1980's Iraq was considered the lesser of two evils.
I'm going to do a bit of Googlin'


...to save you the bother, Iran was an Islamic state and Iraq was nominally secular.


Plus our Shah an Shah (Reza Pavli) had taken a little shitkikking from that there Komenhi feller, and we had a little ass at that, Saddam wanted to give em a go, so we backed the old cheese.  

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: Defining Victory in Iraq - 1/4/2008 4:14:43 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

I cant recall why in the 1980's Iraq was considered the lesser of two evils.
I'm going to do a bit of Googlin'


...to save you the bother, Iran was an Islamic state and Iraq was nominally secular.


Plus our Shah an Shah (Reza Pavli) had taken a little shitkikking from that there Komenhi feller, and we had a little ass at that, Saddam wanted to give em a go, so we backed the old cheese.  


.......yup, you're right........like all things in geopolitics it is never as simple as can be stated in a single sentence.....or expressible in a simple dichotomy.

(in reply to mnottertail)
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RE: Defining Victory in Iraq - 1/4/2008 4:16:37 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		hows about we send all the pissed up east enders in there for a game of football (european style) and whoever  has live bodies left is the winner?

Fair enough?

Gen. Earle Haig


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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: Defining Victory in Iraq - 1/4/2008 4:17:48 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

hows about we send all the pissed up east enders in there for a game of football (european style) and whoever  has live bodies left is the winner?

Fair enough?




..only if we want to lose.....i'd send in the Geordies

(in reply to mnottertail)
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RE: Defining Victory in Iraq - 1/4/2008 4:19:56 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

I cant recall why in the 1980's Iraq was considered the lesser of two evils.
I'm going to do a bit of Googlin'


...to save you the bother, Iran was an Islamic state and Iraq was nominally secular.


Plus our Shah an Shah (Reza Pavli) had taken a little shitkikking from that there Komenhi feller, and we had a little ass at that, Saddam wanted to give em a go, so we backed the old cheese.  


Yep, that link that I handed out speaks of this history


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Defining Victory in Iraq - 1/4/2008 4:20:29 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Isn't that a treasonous sort of speech in your country?

LOL.

Ron


_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: Defining Victory in Iraq - 1/4/2008 4:28:05 PM   
SeeksOnlyOne


Posts: 2012
Joined: 5/14/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

to me, victory would be them agreeing to leave us alone and us them


They never troubled us... we have always been the ones in their backyard... no Iraqi has ever attacked a United States citizen in the name of Iraq on our soil... just sayin



i find blowin up buildings on 9-11 to be troubling my self.

and im not saying that iraq or  saddam had anything to do with that-i really dont know who did it to be honest.  but i believe, maybe ignorantly, that the powers that be went after who they thought was the correct people with the info they had.

was that info bad? maybe.  should they have done more checking? definately.

i guess im thinking more of the entire middle east though and that  may be clouding how im looking at this.  they have a culture that has always included violence.  we do not.  i say let them shoot each other and behead each other all they want.  over there.

harm one American.....we nuke em

_____________________________

it aint no good til it hurts just a little bit....jimmy somerville

in those moments of solitude, does everyone sometimes think they are insane? or is it just me?

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: Defining Victory in Iraq - 1/4/2008 4:33:49 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Isn't that a treasonous sort of speech in your country?

LOL.

Ron



....nope........even Geordies are part of the Union.

F. Arbuthnott
Byker Grove

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RE: Defining Victory in Iraq - 1/4/2008 4:33:53 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Juliaoceania: lets all get the violins out and and burst into tears at the ways of the wicked West.
Seen from the West's point of view a dangerous fundamentalist had got control of Iran and that is why it was in the interests of the West to see Khomeini challenged. Saddam thought so too so he was our man.
Others remembered it, I had forgotton.
When Saddam wanted Kuwait he was no longer our man and had to be "seen to"
Do these facts offend you ?
Never forget the Isareli/Palestine problem in all this !

I know? you are aware of how you, yes you, would have been treated under the Khomenei regime.
Why you would even have to sit in the next room and agree with me because I'm a man lol

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 1/4/2008 4:42:04 PM >

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RE: Defining Victory in Iraq - 1/4/2008 4:35:14 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne

i guess im thinking more of the entire middle east though and that  may be clouding how im looking at this.  they have a culture that has always included violence.  we do not. 


(my italics)

....tell me, did you type that with a straight face?

Geronimo

(in reply to SeeksOnlyOne)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Defining Victory in Iraq - 1/4/2008 4:36:14 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

i find blowin up buildings on 9-11 to be troubling my self.

and im not saying that iraq or  saddam had anything to do with that-i really dont know who did it to be honest.  but i believe, maybe ignorantly, that the powers that be went after who they thought was the correct people with the info they had.

was that info bad? maybe.  should they have done more checking? definately.

i guess im thinking more of the entire middle east though and that  may be clouding how im looking at this.  they have a culture that has always included violence.  we do not.  i say let them shoot each other and behead each other all they want.  over there.

harm one American.....we nuke em



There is so much that troubles me with your world view I cannot even begin to address it, and frankly people who believe in nuking others because one of their citizens may possibly in some alternate universe been harmed by a government official of another country... it just boggles.

There is no rational discourse with you on this topic because the opening line of your post says it all...

quote:

i find blowin up buildings on 9-11 to be troubling my self.



This does not belong in the same post as what is going on in Iraq... no Iraqi ever harmed an American inside of our country... Iraq was never a threat to any American... and basically under your rules we deserve to be nuked for what we did to Iraqi civilians... unless you believe that somehow your life is more valuable than an Iraqi life... it isn't more valuable to me.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to SeeksOnlyOne)
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RE: Defining Victory in Iraq - 1/4/2008 4:40:02 PM   
SeeksOnlyOne


Posts: 2012
Joined: 5/14/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne

i guess im thinking more of the entire middle east though and that  may be clouding how im looking at this.  they have a culture that has always included violence.  we do not. 


(my italics)

....tell me, did you type that with a straight face?

Geronimo


i did kimosabe....we havent had the killings and such for thousands of years like they have....

and yes i know we had the lynchings and wars and such-but to me theres no comparison about the levels of violence in our history.  i dont think we ever had women killed for adultery or authorized them being mutilated. 

but then im just a chick from the south....i could be wrong...

gasp

_____________________________

it aint no good til it hurts just a little bit....jimmy somerville

in those moments of solitude, does everyone sometimes think they are insane? or is it just me?

(in reply to philosophy)
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RE: Defining Victory in Iraq - 1/4/2008 4:41:04 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

did kimosabe....we havent had the killings and such for thousands of years like they have...


Vietnam...


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to SeeksOnlyOne)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Defining Victory in Iraq - 1/4/2008 4:43:16 PM   
SeeksOnlyOne


Posts: 2012
Joined: 5/14/2007
Status: offline 		i see where you are coming from in some ways, but youre right. theres no need for us to try to change each others minds.....opinions on things like this are not going to change due to discussion on a chat forum.

as for being positive no iraqi had anything to do with 9-11and never harmed us, i am glad for you that you feel confident that is the truth.  i have seen nothing to make me sure of it.



_____________________________

it aint no good til it hurts just a little bit....jimmy somerville

in those moments of solitude, does everyone sometimes think they are insane? or is it just me?

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Defining Victory in Iraq - 1/4/2008 4:46:32 PM   
SeeksOnlyOne


Posts: 2012
Joined: 5/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

did kimosabe....we havent had the killings and such for thousands of years like they have...


Vietnam...



if youre saying we should not have gone to vietnam either-i agree wholeheartedly with you.  ihave too many friends scarred forever thanks to that, and i can see no good us going there did.  

had i been a thinking adult back then, instead of a child, i dont know how i would have felt.  but i suspect it would be like i feel now-get our soldiers home now....this is dumb.

_____________________________

it aint no good til it hurts just a little bit....jimmy somerville

in those moments of solitude, does everyone sometimes think they are insane? or is it just me?

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Defining Victory in Iraq - 1/4/2008 4:46:43 PM   
Stephann


Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne

i find blowin up buildings on 9-11 to be troubling my self.

and im not saying that iraq or  saddam had anything to do with that-i really dont know who did it to be honest.  but i believe, maybe ignorantly, that the powers that be went after who they thought was the correct people with the info they had.

was that info bad? maybe.  should they have done more checking? definately.

i guess im thinking more of the entire middle east though and that  may be clouding how im looking at this.  they have a culture that has always included violence.  we do not.  i say let them shoot each other and behead each other all they want.  over there.

harm one American.....we nuke em


Sadly, I think this opinion is far more prevalent in our country than reason. 

Thank you for illustrating exactly why the US shouldn't involve itself in foreign affairs of any kind.

quote:

i did kimosabe....we havent had the killings and such for thousands of years like they have....


You mean besides Hitler?  The Spanish Inquisition?  Shall we count the number of Native Americans left in North America?

Stephan



< Message edited by Stephann -- 1/4/2008 4:49:53 PM >

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Men: Find a Woman here

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Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Defining Victory in Iraq - 1/4/2008 4:46:46 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne

i see where you are coming from in some ways, but youre right. theres no need for us to try to change each others minds.....opinions on things like this are not going to change due to discussion on a chat forum.

as for being positive no iraqi had anything to do with 9-11and never harmed us, i am glad for you that you feel confident that is the truth.  i have seen nothing to make me sure of it.




You cannot disprove George Bush had nothing to do with 911 or Santa Claus...

You know, you would think that being an American you would believe in proving someone did something before taking some sort of lethal action against them.. you know, like preemptively invading them and then saying "Oops, we can't find anything!"


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to SeeksOnlyOne)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Defining Victory in Iraq - 1/4/2008 4:55:04 PM   
SeeksOnlyOne


Posts: 2012
Joined: 5/14/2007
Status: offline 		hitler is an American now? 

the way we treated the native Americans is a sad thing, but hundreds of years behind us.  how far is the last genocide in the history books in the middle east?

_____________________________

it aint no good til it hurts just a little bit....jimmy somerville

in those moments of solitude, does everyone sometimes think they are insane? or is it just me?

(in reply to Stephann)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Defining Victory in Iraq - 1/4/2008 4:56:46 PM   
MasDom


Posts: 375
Joined: 11/10/2005
Status: offline 		-Mas Dom's plan for Iraq/US victory-

-Step one-
Blockade borders, and through heavy vehicle and base of operation overlay cut off unwanted supplies to enemy forces.
Not food, or water of course...But weapons, and explosive materials as a definit..Air and land support, water were needed.

Once enemy has limited supplies, start attacking water convoys,and food convoys to non friendly allocations.
Should be obvious also when you have friendly groups if theirs a couple more tons going in then they really need.
This would be done by our patrols, who would of course now be fighting the not so well armed, but still capable enemy, but hopefully our budget cuts wouldn't be an issue later on in the war for this.

-part two-
Cut there media, and then plant insurrectionists who would rather use there words then weapons.
Hope that forces a more two sided conflict in locations.
Also give these radicals free media coverage were others do not have such access..

-Seems evil but trust me, think about it.-

-Part three-
Personally send crude that was irradiated to Iraq, then send it back to be found out by the US inspectors.

While this raises alarms go forth to push mass transit systems that don't use Gasoline, and electrical upgrades to the mass rotting grid.
Spark a campaign on this until you at least better a ten percent difference in our dependency on oil, and just sit back after that...

-Part four-
Use black ops to eliminate all unresolved personnel in their government, and use snipers to kill off all drug dealers at the poppie Fields so there government control, and funding can eventually be diminished.

------------------------------------------------------------------
Tell me that wouldnt quell a few issues?...


-Of course this is just me spouting off.-

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Defining Victory in Iraq - 1/4/2008 4:56:54 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Juliaoceania: lets all get the violins out and and burst into tears at the ways of the wicked West.
Seen from the West's point of view a dangerous fundamentalist had got control of Iran and that is why it was in the interests of the West to see Khomeini challenged. Saddam thought so too so he was our man.
Others remembered it, I had forgotton.
When Saddam wanted Kuwait he was no longer our man and had to be "seen to"
Do these facts offend you ?
Never forget the Isareli/Palestine problem in all this !

I know? you are aware of how you, yes you, would have been treated under the Khomenei regime.
Why you would even have to sit in the next room and agree with me because I'm a man lol


Please spare me how you care what dictators do to the people that live under their tyrrany,...

The real history of Iran is that there was a democratic secular leader that was running things there, except he was not the puppet that the USA needed... so they put the blood thirsty Shah in charge and when they did it was one of the primary causes of religious extremism erupting in Iran...

http://www.nytimes.com/library/world/mideast/041600iran-cia-index.html


Religious extremists do not come from no where, they are not created in a vacuum. They gain strength with specific causes...

Read the first part of this online book, which is well regarded and academic for the causes of religious extremism

http://wwics.si.edu/subsites/ccpdc/pubs/apple/frame.htm


< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 1/4/2008 4:57:20 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 80
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