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RE: Defining Victory in Iraq - 1/4/2008 5:01:21 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Isn't that a treasonous sort of speech in your country?

LOL.

Ron



....nope........even Geordies are part of the Union.

F. Arbuthnott
Byker Grove


It took me a while to post this back, 'cause I gotta tell you phil, I was laughing so goddamn hard I couldnt snag the button to click it, and lord luv a colonialist come to jesus, sergeantmajor....

Ron


_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Defining Victory in Iraq - 1/4/2008 5:13:48 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Juliaoceania: It seems to me that at root you allow your feelings compassion and your heart to totally distort any sensible view that may be held on the state of the world.

The Iranian regime you refer to in the 1950's wanted to expropriate the Oil industry built up at enormous expense and based on high levels of technical expertise with the result that in the US in particular and the West in general standards of living for many were at an all time high.

Should we stand by and let that control slip away from us simply to make those who think as you do "feel" better ?
I say NO, a thousand times NO. 

I am sure that there are many examples of US interference where we would be on the same side. VietNam being the most obvious.
But who controls OIL at the moment cannot be compromised. It must be the West.
USSR control of gas resources may well build up into the next major international crisis.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Defining Victory in Iraq - 1/4/2008 5:14:46 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		Fuck Oil... In less than 50 years we could be free of it..

If we started 50 years ago, we'd be free of it now...



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Defining Victory in Iraq - 1/4/2008 5:16:27 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Juliaoceania: It seems to me that at root you allow your feelings compassion and your heart to totally distort any sensible view that may be held on the state of the world.

The Iranian regime you refer to in the 1950's wanted to expropriate the Oil industry built up at enormous expense and based on high levels of technical expertise with the result that in the US in particular and the West in general standards of living for many were at an all time high.

Should we stand by and let that control slip away from us simply to make those who think as you do "feel" better ?
I say NO, a thousand times NO. 

I am sure that there are many examples of US interference where we would be on the same side. VietNam being the most obvious.
But who controls OIL at the moment cannot be compromised. It must be the West.
USSR control of gas resources may well build up into the next major international crisis.


You answered my question...


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Defining Victory in Iraq - 1/4/2008 5:23:43 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Juliaoceania: It seems to me that at root you allow your feelings compassion and your heart to totally distort any sensible view that may be held on the state of the world.

The Iranian regime you refer to in the 1950's wanted to expropriate the Oil industry built up at enormous expense and based on high levels of technical expertise with the result that in the US in particular and the West in general standards of living for many were at an all time high.

Should we stand by and let that control slip away from us simply to make those who think as you do "feel" better ?
I say NO, a thousand times NO. 

I am sure that there are many examples of US interference where we would be on the same side. VietNam being the most obvious.
But who controls OIL at the moment cannot be compromised. It must be the West.
USSR control of gas resources may well build up into the next major international crisis.


oh, fuck.........that is all, over.




_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Defining Victory in Iraq - 1/4/2008 5:24:14 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Dont follow....I think you are a misguided soppy sentimentalist lol

In fact the kind who, when their efforts have been applied to social problems, have bequeathed us for example  crime rates spiralling up and up and up and yes up some more

Mnotter: I think Julia may have had an orgasm lol

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 1/4/2008 5:25:54 PM >

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Defining Victory in Iraq - 1/4/2008 5:30:11 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Dont follow....I think you are a misguided soppy sentimentalist lol

In fact the kind who, when their efforts have been applied to social problems, have bequeathed us for example  crime rates spiralling up and up and up and yes up some more




I do not care what you think because your thoughts are very myopic and only centered in what you believe rather than any sort of research, historical context, nor any consideration of information that does not support your views. I offered a book for you to read called The Ambivalence of the Sacred which details the conditions that are inherent in the rise of all religious extremist groups (even ones in the West), it is unfortunate that you feel it is unworthy of your time to consider... but that shows me the worthiness of your opinion of me and my thoughts based on the extensive reading I have done on the topic.

You will not find me posting much on this subject, because I feel it is too complex to discuss on a BDSM forum... so I post links, hope others will read them, and know I can lead a horse to knowledge but I cannot make it think..

The question you answered btw was this one

quote:

As long as he was the enemy of our enemy he was our friend.... so what is worse, I ask you, putting your stamp of approval on such atrocities because it is politically expedient" Or being a "true believer"?


< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 1/4/2008 6:16:43 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Defining Victory in Iraq - 1/4/2008 5:51:10 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		First the US did not put a stamp of approval on Saddam's atrocities. You must know that and it did not, I believe, have any overt role in the attack on Iran. It just suited US foreign policy at the time. which IMO was correct.
Not the killing of innocents on both sides but who ultimately controls Oil supplies.
Saddam had an agenda, so did Iran and so did the dominant Western power the US.

Second you accuse me of being myopic; well I can see far enough to know that the lust for power wealth and control has existed long before even the US existed and is not likely to disappear soon however much "touchy feely" balm is applied by those who think like you.

Regrettable, but true.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Defining Victory in Iraq - 1/4/2008 5:58:15 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

did kimosabe....we havent had the killings and such for thousands of years like they have...


Vietnam...



if youre saying we should not have gone to vietnam either-i agree wholeheartedly with you.  ihave too many friends scarred forever thanks to that, and i can see no good us going there did.  



Go ahead, say it.

"My comment about killings for thousands of years was both historically incorrect, factually unproven, mind-bogglingly obtuse, and insulting to my friends who were horribly damaged by a war perpetrated on them by an administration who went in with "best intentions" and a complete lack of historical perspective or sense of reality."

I knew you could.

Mister Rogergy.



_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to SeeksOnlyOne)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Defining Victory in Iraq - 1/4/2008 6:02:03 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Well, as fucked up as she could possibly be, it could not be distilled to the first and only hog you cut.

WE by god did supply Iraq with every weapon that would beat the fuck out of Iran and held back our shit that could beat us.  Fucking overtly, pal, our leaders are of alzheimers and ignorant families as old as Chaimberlain.............

search Iran/Contra that is what happened here while your Margi and our Ronnie were  sucking each others iron balls, as my forefathers said, you are a second rate country and will always be that, now if france comes up with a better deal, I will call them my buddy.

Richelieu


_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Defining Victory in Iraq - 1/4/2008 6:08:59 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		I remember Harold McMillan asking after a rant by Khruschev in the United Nations security council, over the Suez invasion I think
Can I have a translation please lol

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Defining Victory in Iraq - 1/4/2008 6:13:12 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

Well, as fucked up as she could possibly be,


Ain't no possibly about it, I am fucked up and down and sideways sometimes... better to be fucked than unfucked


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Defining Victory in Iraq - 1/4/2008 6:19:32 PM   
dcnovice


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Joined: 8/2/2006
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quote:

......a victory for who?


Well, I was thinking for the U.S. and its allies, but it would also be great to come up with a scenario that improves life for the Iraqis.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Defining Victory in Iraq - 1/4/2008 6:20:51 PM   
Sinergy


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Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

......a victory for who?


Well, I was thinking for the U.S. and its allies, but it would also be great to come up with a scenario that improves life for the Iraqis.


Except the dead or wounded ones.

Stating-the-obviousergy


_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Defining Victory in Iraq - 1/4/2008 6:21:00 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

......a victory for who?


Well, I was thinking for the U.S. and its allies, but it would also be great to come up with a scenario that improves life for the Iraqis.


It is hard to cheer for us to have a "victory" because we certainly have lost any claim we may have had to a moral one a long time ago


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Defining Victory in Iraq - 1/4/2008 6:21:45 PM   
dcnovice


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Joined: 8/2/2006
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quote:

Define "victory in Iraq?" Didn't Bush already define it for us and claim he achieved it? Something about the whole "Mission Accomplished" thing?

Point taken, Petronius, but we're still there, still reluctant to leave without "victory." Hence my interest in figuring out what victory actually looks like at this point.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Petronius)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Defining Victory in Iraq - 1/4/2008 6:23:08 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

I remember Harold McMillan asking after a rant by Khruschev in the United Nations security council, over the Suez invasion I think
Can I have a translation please lol


That was our adlai stevenson, over the cuban missle crisis and the russian minister (in the un said that) and adlai said, dont wait
for the translation, you can answer yes or no, started with a Z, that guys name and it was in 63.

Ron


_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Defining Victory in Iraq - 1/4/2008 6:24:56 PM   
SeeksOnlyOne


Posts: 2012
Joined: 5/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

did kimosabe....we havent had the killings and such for thousands of years like they have...


Vietnam...



if youre saying we should not have gone to vietnam either-i agree wholeheartedly with you.  ihave too many friends scarred forever thanks to that, and i can see no good us going there did.  



Go ahead, say it.

"My comment about killings for thousands of years was both historically incorrect, factually unproven, mind-bogglingly obtuse, and insulting to my friends who were horribly damaged by a war perpetrated on them by an administration who went in with "best intentions" and a complete lack of historical perspective or sense of reality."

I knew you could.

Mister Rogergy.




.how charming....but no i wont say it.....for one thing the USA has not been around for as long as other countries, and i believe we found the our way to civilization way more quickly than they have in the middle east.......they are not there yet and never will be violence free.  they have an entirely different culture than any who settled here.

disagreeing with the opinion of your gal doesnt make me obtuse, nor insulting to my friends.  I also have friends who are now in iraq and some believe in what theyre doing there, some are only there because they commited to be there and are doing their job.

julia is capable of a having a civil discussion without calling names.......and i dont think she needs you coming in here going neener neener to someone who disagrees with her opinions.

_____________________________

it aint no good til it hurts just a little bit....jimmy somerville

in those moments of solitude, does everyone sometimes think they are insane? or is it just me?

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RE: Defining Victory in Iraq - 1/4/2008 6:25:47 PM   
dcnovice


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Joined: 8/2/2006
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quote:

The thing is, there is no victory to be had in Iraq... too much death, too many lives destroyed, too many people used up and spit out and treated as though they were expendable on both sides... from a human stand point there is no victory ever in Iraq.

From an economic standpoint there is no victory in Iraq,..we reach 100 dollars a barrell for oil... and I cannot help but think that the instability that this war has caused has a direct correlation here. It maybe understandable, except the record profits that Big Oil has produced while we pay for it with lives and tax dollars... actually our grandkids are paying for it... those greedy bastards.

There are also environmental impacts of staying the fossil fuel course, while we could use the money spent chasing black gold into alternative energy resources...

Where is the victory here? I can't see anything coming close to one

Important points, Julia. Thanks!

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Defining Victory in Iraq - 1/4/2008 6:27:06 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I will point out, he did not call you a name, and his opinions are his own... he can express them in the same thread I express mine.. I didn't piss on it after all

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to SeeksOnlyOne)
Profile   Post #: 100
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