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Defining Victory in Iraq - 1/2/2008 2:39:38 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline 		Many a CM political thread soon becomes a slugfest about whether the U.S. and its allies are "winning" or "losing" in Iraq. Yet I can't recall our ever pausing to define what victory means in the Iraqi context. This thread offers the opportunity to do so.

So . . . how do you define victory in Iraq?

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

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RE: Defining Victory in Iraq - 1/2/2008 2:46:11 PM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		When the mindless Islamic fundamentalists realise what an opportunity has been offered to them to run their country in a more civilised way.
By that definition victory is a long way off...and its not GWB's fault !

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RE: Defining Victory in Iraq - 1/2/2008 2:52:08 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

When the mindless Islamic fundamentalists realise what an opportunity has been offered to them to run their country in a more civilised way.
By that definition victory is a long way off.


Yes, that might take a while.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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RE: Defining Victory in Iraq - 1/2/2008 2:54:19 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		it has been defined and cast aside many times, we now know that there is no definition of victory in the entire middle east possible until after the coward and war criminal bush is swept out of office along with the other administration trash and useless articles.

Ron 

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: Defining Victory in Iraq - 1/2/2008 3:18:23 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

it has been defined and cast aside many times,


I realize that, but I confess I haven't followed the debate as closely as I should have. So I really am interested in folks' thoughts.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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RE: Defining Victory in Iraq - 1/2/2008 3:23:21 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

Many a CM political thread soon becomes a slugfest about whether the U.S. and its allies are "winning" or "losing" in Iraq. Yet I can't recall our ever pausing to define what victory means in the Iraqi context. This thread offers the opportunity to do so.

So . . . how do you define victory in Iraq?


Surely, victory (for those who support this) would be the creation of a political and economic system favourable to US interests.

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I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: Defining Victory in Iraq - 1/2/2008 3:28:01 PM   
dcnovice


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Status: offline 		Nice and concise, NG. Thanks.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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RE: Defining Victory in Iraq - 1/2/2008 3:40:54 PM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Victory would be when we can all have our troops back and the locals stop fighting one another and live normal everyday lives, raising their kids, building prosperity and so on under a lawfully elected regime which runs according to lawful values.

Never happen

Maybe victory will be more likely when we decide which arsehole we want to repress the ethnic and religious groups for the next few decades, put him in power and back him and get a good return on the "investment" of so much death and suffering.

E



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RE: Defining Victory in Iraq - 1/2/2008 3:49:41 PM   
farglebargle


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Status: offline 		THE GOALS:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/03/20030322.html

quote:


And our mission is clear, to disarm Iraq of weapons of mass destruction, to end Saddam Hussein's support for terrorism, and to free the Iraqi people.


_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Defining Victory in Iraq - 1/2/2008 3:58:58 PM   
FatDomDaddy


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Status: offline 		Well according to Jim Clyburn D-SD and Majority Whip of the House Democrats, victory in Iraq would "be bad for us [Democrat Party]"

Just google Jim Clyburn and "bad for us"
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=Jim+Clyburn++good+news+in+Iraq+bad+for+us&btnG=Google+Search

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RE: Defining Victory in Iraq - 1/2/2008 4:06:41 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

THE GOALS:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/03/20030322.html

quote:


And our mission is clear, to disarm Iraq of weapons of mass destruction, to end Saddam Hussein's support for terrorism, and to free the Iraqi people.



On paper, granted; in practice, the CIA were fully aware that some of the "evidence" for WMDs was fabricated. Saddam is long gone...and freedom, well, I'd be surprised if the strategic thinkers in a nation founded by dissenters don't appreciate that coercion isn't akin to freedom.

Surely the statement you quote is preying on the base instincts of pride and fear: the land of the free at the mercy of terrorists (in tried and tested fashion, and used around the world for centuries).

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: Defining Victory in Iraq - 1/2/2008 4:08:25 PM   
farglebargle


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Status: offline 		Well, given that it was doomed to failure from the beginning, ( It was so poorly planned, Bush needed to commit Felony Fraud to get Congress to go along! ) it's sort of irrelevant to discuss if victory would be good or bad. It's IMPOSSIBLE to have a victory, given the goals going in.

Hussein HAD COMPLIED with the UN. He CERTIFIED that fact immediately prior to Bush's invasion.

IF Hussein was "supporting terrorists" ( and given the US's refusal to turn over the aircraft bombing terrorist Posada Carriles, I don't see any "Moral High Ground" for the US to be taking )... whatever support it was PALED beside the organized support of the Saudis.

And as far as "Freeing the Iraqi People", well a million of them are now dead subsequent to the US Occupation, so they are, in some respects, "Free of their earthly concerns". ..



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Defining Victory in Iraq - 1/2/2008 4:14:17 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

THE GOALS:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/03/20030322.html

quote:


And our mission is clear, to disarm Iraq of weapons of mass destruction, to end Saddam Hussein's support for terrorism, and to free the Iraqi people.



Item three was never possible, the Sunni and Shia have too much bad blood for that to occur. The best outcome would be for this to be solved quickly with as few deaths, on all sides, as possible.

I wonder what would happen though, if Iraq became a perfect democracy. Would the world be happy if the numerically superior Shia elected an Iranian type leadership.

Me thinks not.

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RE: Defining Victory in Iraq - 1/2/2008 4:19:02 PM   
farglebargle


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quote:


I wonder what would happen though, if Iraq became a perfect democracy.


Did you see how Hamas got elected the Lawful Government of Palestine?



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Defining Victory in Iraq - 1/2/2008 4:24:16 PM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		Indeed i did FB, even the billions of dollars sent to the Palestinian authority just prior to the elections didnt help them keep power. For the sake of the debate though, i didnt want to link the two issues. Do you think the US would give financial support if Iran became a fundementalist state.

I hate repeating myself but me thinks not.

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RE: Defining Victory in Iraq - 1/2/2008 4:28:10 PM   
dolceservo


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Status: offline 		http://www.arabtimesonline.com/client/pagesdetails.asp?nid=10176&ccid=11

quote:

The second half of 2007 saw violence drop dramatically in Iraq, but the progress came at a high price.[......] The groups, known as Awakening Councils and dubbed Concerned Local Citizens by the US military, have been credited with helping reduce overall violence in the country by 60 percent since June, along with a surge of extra US troops into Baghdad and a cease-fire declared by radical Shiite extremist Muqtada al-Sadr for his Mahdi Army militia.[.....] The Awakening Council groups are made up of mainly Sunni tribal fighters who turned against al-Qaeda in Iraq earlier this year and are now paid a salary of $300 (about 200 euros) a month by the US military to help provide security in their areas.The councils are increasingly becoming targets in Iraq. Last week, a new audiotape of Osama bin Laden emerged warning Iraq’s Sunni Arabs against joining the Awakening Councils or participating in any unity government.


I was never convinced by the reasons of the war since the beginning and honestly if i had been an american tax payer i would have wanted to see my money being spent elsewhere. With the money spent in iraq since 2003 the US governament, among other things, could have built some high speed tracks for fast trains all over across the continent cutting the oil imports by millions of barrels.

Having said that now that the decision was made and the troops are there, I am happy that things are going better in iraq and i really hope that the iraqi people there can go to a market soon without risking to blow up together with the vegetables they are buying.
When that happens ( and some serious amount of oil starts flowing out of the country making the oil price drop) i will call it a victory.






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RE: Defining Victory in Iraq - 1/2/2008 5:20:06 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

Well according to Jim Clyburn D-SD and Majority Whip of the House Democrats, victory in Iraq would "be bad for us [Democrat Party]"

Just google Jim Clyburn and "bad for us"
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=Jim+Clyburn++good+news+in+Iraq+bad+for+us&btnG=Google+Search


That's interesting, FDD, but it doesn't answer the question: How do you define victory in Iraq?

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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RE: Defining Victory in Iraq - 1/2/2008 5:22:19 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

THE GOALS:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/03/20030322.html

quote:


And our mission is clear, to disarm Iraq of weapons of mass destruction, to end Saddam Hussein's support for terrorism, and to free the Iraqi people.



Thanks for the link, Fargle. I hadn't seen that.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to farglebargle)
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RE: Defining Victory in Iraq - 1/2/2008 5:24:50 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

i really hope that the iraqi people there can go to a market soon without risking to blow up together with the vegetables they are buying.


I hope so too.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to dolceservo)
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RE: Defining Victory in Iraq - 1/2/2008 5:31:54 PM   
Griswold


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

Many a CM political thread soon becomes a slugfest about whether the U.S. and its allies are "winning" or "losing" in Iraq. Yet I can't recall our ever pausing to define what victory means in the Iraqi context. This thread offers the opportunity to do so.
So . . . how do you define victory in Iraq?


Getting out.

(And no, I'm not with all the paraders..."get out now!!!" But getting out has to be a good thing).

We have to get out appropriately...I don't know what that actually means...I'm not a military guy...I don't know exactly why we're there...I suspect it's bigger than what we all know about...nevertheless...getting out at the appropriate time seems good to me).

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