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RE: I need Help with a philisophical D/s question... - 1/5/2008 6:39:16 AM   
SirJohnMandevill


Posts: 546
Joined: 11/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Vargsten
It was my point of view that the Dom and submissive should sit down and discuss the problem, because a serious problem it would be. However I can not come up with a single idea about what should happen to him.


My .02 zlotys: It's not so much that a Dom has a "Get Out Of Jail Free" card, but I don't believe a Dominant should be held to the exact rules he gives his submissive. That said, your idea that they sit and talk about what happened is, to me, the perfect solution between two people, regardless of their status in the D/s relationship.

As far as what happens to the Dom, unless he admits error and works things out with his submissive, he could suffer the worst of consequences -- loss of the relationship. That's incentive enough for me!

Les (Purveyor of Fine, Handcrafted Kink)



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(in reply to Vargsten)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: I need Help with a philisophical D/s question... - 1/5/2008 6:59:58 AM   
Prinsexx


Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Vargsten

Dear Reader,

Today I wanted to throw out a question to all you die hard bdsm’rs out there. I was recently discussing rules and punishments with a fellow colleague.  Now the debate was this: If a Dom gives their submissive a set of ground rules she is expected to follow it or reap the consequences right? So what if a Dom breaks one of the rules themselves, what should happen to them?


I am sorry, probably having a rare stupidiy moment, but if the Dom set the rules for his sub, why, what, how and when does it matter if He breaks them? The rules are for the sub not for the Dom.
(Only I am set rules. I don't expect Master P to abide by any except accepted taboo and ethical issues.....or to discuss what rules He lives by with me unless he deems fit to do so........)


< Message edited by Prinsexx -- 1/5/2008 7:01:05 AM >

(in reply to Vargsten)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: I need Help with a philisophical D/s question... - 1/5/2008 7:06:15 AM   
Marsh


Posts: 17
Joined: 12/27/2007
Status: offline 		I so agree in that if damage to the relationship is in the form of violating either the terms or conditions  of the relationship agreement then the agreement no longer exists. One should have the courage of their convictions and the self-honor to adhere to their commitment.  For me a violation of this nature would not be open to discussion, it was done so too is the relationship.

(in reply to MissHarlet)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: I need Help with a philisophical D/s question... - 1/5/2008 7:31:20 AM   
Tantriqu


Posts: 2026
Joined: 12/29/2006
Status: offline 		Not telling U/us what the violation was is a copout.
It's a matter of degree. 

I've violated tenets Myself; for example, I promised to correct a newbie sub instantly if in private or as soon as possible in public, and tell him how he transgressed.  I was so exasperated and tired that once I didn't correct him as soon as the door closed behind U/us; I just ignored him and went to bed.  good dog, he had a sleepless night trying to imagine what he had done wrong. 
Although this could have been considered the correction in itself, I apologised since it was My error, although it in no way 'cancelled out' his. 
This proves that We're human and can make mistakes, but unlike vanillas We correct ourselves as soon as possible, a further reminder to add to limits that We should not correct when We're tired/angry/ill/ etc.

Now, if your violation was going beyond your sub's sexual or correction hard limits, that's much more a serious and very real violation, and if you violate a sub's safe word, it's considered rape.

So, tell Us what you committed or omitted.

(in reply to Vargsten)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: I need Help with a philisophical D/s question... - 1/5/2008 7:43:06 AM   
sambamanslilgirl


Posts: 10926
Joined: 2/5/2007
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		if either of my dominants did something to break the relationship, i would forgive however i won't just only forget - i'll hold a grudge against that person until he re-earns my trust and confidence again. and that doesn't happen overnight either.  saying "sorry" will help ease the damage done but it would heal the pain i feel deep inside.  i don't know if there's a punishment for a dominant if he did break rule #1 however with mine - isolating myself away from him would probably hard on the both of us.

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(in reply to Vargsten)
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RE: I need Help with a philosophical D/s question... - 1/5/2008 7:52:07 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

do nothing detrimental to their relationship.

Chris,
You want to get philosophical? Start with defining the above quote.

How can that "rule" be in question regarding punishment activity when punishment is part of the relationship definition? What would be detrimental would be if NO consequence occurred after the transgression. There's no need to discover the specifics.

But the second rule provides insight to the problem. "Degrade her self esteem" Wasn't causing need for punishment "degrading" the relationship? Punishment is within the relationship. How could going through a punishment experience degrade her? There should be regret and sorrow for causing the need for punishment. However there should also be some pride represented by the integrity of her commitment. It would seem to be a opportunity to RAISE her self esteem.

But I have a theory...

Philosophically, the generally accepted dictionary definitions don't apply to the people being discussed. There is a certain logic at calling the person inflicting pain, dominant. A similar logic calls for the person receiving pain, submissive. However outside the pragmatic sensation, the label is wrong.

The mental or emotional feelings expected of the sensation labeled Dom/sub are in opposition to the dictionary definitions. The sub wants to feel his/her ass spanked....up to a point. The Dom is allowed to spank the sub's ass...up to a point. Emotionally and mentally the dominance of the experience, or in the OP case described, is in the hands of the sensation submissive. It seems obvious in direct observation. It then becomes just as logical for the sensation submissive to be "upset" and lose "self esteem" when their mental and emotional dominance isn't respected. I know, as a Master of experiences in my relationship - I'd feel the exact same way.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 1/5/2008 7:54:35 AM >

(in reply to Vargsten)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: I need Help with a philosophical D/s question... - 1/5/2008 9:42:37 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		I agree with those who well note that rules for the sub hardly mean rules for the dom (Ds = double standard) and that if a dom makes a mistake, they need to admit it and work on making it better in the future.

But I will note that there IS a problem if a dom specifically makes a rule for a sub regarding the health of the relationship and then blatantly and willfully does something he knows will be a detriment to the health of the relationship.  It's not about him breaking a rule- it's about him deciding on certain standards and realizing there SHOULD be rules about something, and then completely disregarding them.  That's something to really examine and work on internally.

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(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: I need Help with a philisophical D/s question... - 1/5/2008 10:02:34 AM   
LadyHugs


Posts: 2299
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Dear Vargsten, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
It really is a matter of a personal relationship and their defined wording as to what is/can/may/will/should/could/would/that/what would be detrimental to 'the' relationship.
There is a Baskin-Robin's 31 choices and 62 combinations or more that would set up for them what detrimental means to them and how it would affect/effect directly, indirectly, coincidentally and collateral damage if the parties involved did something.  Really would have to be a well written contract.
 
Judgement is also subjected to perception, assumption, evidence, circumstances and accumilating affects/effects. 
 
Being human, a person has a right to be wrong.  There will be faults and rules broken and mistakes made.  It is to be expected.  When setting up rules, laws, boundaries, expectations and the like; it is easy to set things up where it causes failures.  Sometimes it is wiser to be a bit more fluid and flexible nature to the rules; so there are ways to keep some rule from setting up someone for failure.  Building self esteem is based on success and feeling good about themselves.  Why make rules to defeat the very thing that cancels #2 rule?
 
I realize for many Dominants, it might be difficult to apologize, admit wrong, admit a 'theory' didn't work and or perceptions/assumptions were wrong and or flawed.  However, in order for a person to forgive--there needs to be an apology.  To close a door on a bad chapter, there must be a fresh beginning into a new chapter.  Communication is not one sided.  It also involves listening.  Communication is not reading the rules out.  Communication is also understanding what is heard. 
 
Just some thoughts.
 
Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs
 

(in reply to Vargsten)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: I need Help with a philisophical D/s question... - 1/5/2008 10:21:03 AM   
taintedgypsy


Posts: 228
Joined: 2/10/2007
Status: offline 		Rules for the sub, agreements, contracts ... whether rules apply to Doms or not is imaterial in this question ... if he does something that is detrimental to the relationship then he fucked up or he does not care very much for the relationship ... Doms are human (for the most part lol) and they make mistakes and I am with the majority here in that the Dom should take responsibility for their actions, and try to clean up their mess but ultimately doing something detrimental to the relationship on a foundation level whether committed by the sub or the Dom is usually the death knoll for the relationship.

Rules for subs and Doms are usually worlds apart yet everyone involved in the relationship needs to protect the integrity of what ever their foundation is or the relationship falls down like a house of cards in a strong wind.

my 2 cents worth ... not meant ot offend or upset anyone

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warm smiles to all

(in reply to LadyHugs)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: I need Help with a philisophical D/s question... - 1/5/2008 10:54:08 AM   
ShaktiSama


Posts: 1674
Joined: 8/13/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Vargsten
If a Dom gives their submissive a set of ground rules she is expected to follow it or reap the consequences right? So what if a Dom breaks one of the rules themselves, what should happen to them?

Here were the rules given.

Rule #1
She is to do nothing detrimental to their relationship.

Rule #2
She is to do nothing that may degrade her self esteem.


Just as an aside...yikes, these are huge, huge philosophical/emotional things to put on a list of rules which are usually drawn up in the name of "play".

Not only that, but these rules are vaguely stated, which is also not good for a typical Rule List.  Rule Lists are usually used to instill good habits and break bad ones in precise, easy-to-understand, easy-to-follow ways.  That makes the use of punishments easy and consistent, which is necessary in any training regimen.

Ideally, the sort of "rules" which can be broken for the sake of punishment in a D/S relationship should NOT be the sort of rules which carry with them their own punishment.  In a case like this, doing something to damage the relationship carries its own punishment; the relationship is damaged, and that sucks!  Ditto with damaging the submissive's self-esteem--being involved with a person who has low self-esteem is its own punishment, and can be very painful and even dangerous for both dom and sub.

So...on the one hand, it seems to me that these deep issues are things that transcend the trappings of D/S and should be dealt with outside a list of rules.

On the other hand, I think there's another issue here which could be discussed, which is what happens when a dominant damages his or her moral authority in a D/S relationship.  I'm sure we can all see a number of ways that this can happen, the most common being when two people agree to monogamy and one of them breaks that rule. 

So...what should happen to the Dom?  Is there any way to fix it?  Is it possible for a dominant to use the same tools that submissives have such easy access to, in order to relieve guilt and shame, and repay moral debt?

Unless he/she is in a switch relationship, or able to expiate sin through the offices of some other dominant...yeah, I think it is difficult for doms to use punishment to clean up messes.  But the notion of penance for dominants is not completely without merit.  I will never forget the scene in "The Mission", where Robert DeNiro's character climbs a mountain with fifty pounds of steel plate armor bundled over his shoulder.  The weight of that armor was the weight of his violent past and his sins.  The penance he was performing was designed to free him.  He had only to summon the strength to make himself free...it was extremely powerful to watch.

Anyway, we have no idea what was done to "damage the relationship" in this particular case, but I know of many societies and relationships in which partners do penance for adultery and other "relationship damaging" sins.  And I can certainly think of some cases where it would be cleansing and healing to both parties for the person who betrayed the relationship to embrace some common symbol of remorse, like shaving his/her head...or to receive a whipping, which could be very painful for the dom to endure and for the sub to watch.

If the guilty party shows remorse and suffers in some way after screwing up, in recognition for the suffering that has been caused to their partner, it might help in some cases.  I still remember one sub who posted here about having watched while her dominant received a whipping in one of his extremely rare switch moments; she rushed to his side afterward, overwhelmed by her feelings of protective love, to provide his aftercare.  If those feelings could be invoked purposefully, by a man or woman who did NOT enjoy receiving pain, for the sake of a mistake that he or she had made?  I can see how it might work very well to earn forgiveness, and win back devotion and respect.  Non-hypocritical strength has its merits from time to time, although of course all subs are different.  And who are we to say that suffering is not romantic? 

*shrug*  Anyway.  Just a few random musings.  I think you might be onto something, though.  "I screwed up and I paid the price gladly for the sake of our love and my honor" is a pretty powerful message to send in a relationship.  If nothing else, it underscores moral authority.  

< Message edited by ShaktiSama -- 1/5/2008 10:56:46 AM >

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(in reply to taintedgypsy)
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RE: I need Help with a philisophical D/s question... - 1/5/2008 12:31:33 PM   
meticulousgirl


Posts: 969
Joined: 2/20/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

Gee, I dunno.  Would it possibly be something as simple as the dom says, “I fucked up and I’m sorry.”  ???


Fat Chance of that....in the big ego Doms case anyways....

~meticulous~

(in reply to catize)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: I need Help with a philisophical D/s question... - 1/5/2008 1:59:29 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		Reality dictates that as human beings, Dominants are not infallible *gasp*.  We make mistakes, we make amends, life goes on. 
 
In my own relationships there's no punishment, no discipline if I should happen to screw up... nothing more than an apology and explanation if I feel one is warranted.  So how is that fair if she may be punished or disciplined for the same infraction?  It's not... fairness has place in my relationships. 
 
She can stay under those circumstances, or leave if it's not to her liking.
 
John

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(in reply to Vargsten)
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RE: I need Help with a philisophical D/s question... - 1/5/2008 2:21:10 PM   
scottjk


Posts: 335
Joined: 4/18/2005
Status: offline
Hmm, some very thoughtful posts and responses. Well, most of them.

I won't go into how I arrived at my point of view but I'm of the opinion that regardless of the gender, a submissive relies on the integrity of the dominant's behavior and word. Period. Once trust has been broken, that submissive will never trust the dominant as they did before. There will always be a kernel of doubt and suspicion. How much will depend on the dominant's action when such an event happens, and how long it takes for the dominant to realize the error.

Now, I would assume that it's true that rules laid out to the sub are for the sub, however, if some of those rules are too close to what is expected of the dominant, it would be foolish to say that the dominant is outside of those particular rules simply because they were issued to the sub. Take the "no harm to the relationship" rule for instance.

I like to play unfair as much as the next dominant, but please, that's just crossing some lines you shouldn't.

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RE: I need Help with a philisophical D/s question... - 1/5/2008 2:41:54 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		Since when don't dominants have rules? If he agrees not to interfere in how she raises her ums, and then announces she should force one to go to community college and not a private university as he wants her to take him on vacation, that's violating a rule. As is promising monogamy and being found cybering. Or demanding she be fiscally responsible and then he runs up $50,000 in credit card debt.

All of these damage the relationship and her trust in him. An apology doesn't cut it. Actions do.

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Cynical and proud of it!


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RE: I need Help with a philisophical D/s question... - 1/5/2008 2:49:27 PM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		I have never understood that mentality.  People are people, there will be mistakes.  Yes, it is great to believe in someones integrity and expect that from your partner whether they are dominant or submissive.  Why would it be strictly a dominant requirement?
That said, life happens.  People will fuk up on occasion.  Heck.. they will fuk up on more than one occasion.  We are human and fallible,  EVEN the dominants! *gasp*
If trust can never be the same, maybe that isn't such a bad thing.  Perhaps that opens up a time to take off the rose colored glasses and see your partner as someone with flaws.  Maybe then they could open their eyes to things which may need work.  And that is what a relationship is, work.
As far as I know perfection is still unobtainable.  I am pretty sure I would hate it if I ever found it.
Kyst
quote:

ORIGINAL: scottjk

a submissive relies on the integrity of the dominant's behavior and word. Period. Once trust has been broken, that submissive will never trust the dominant as they did before. There will always be a kernel of doubt and suspicion.


_____________________________

pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding ~Gibran, Kahlil

“The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for.”
― Bob Marley


(in reply to scottjk)
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RE: I need Help with a philisophical D/s question... - 1/5/2008 3:08:19 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline
quote:

Here were the rules given.

Rule #1
She is to do nothing detrimental to their relationship.

Rule #2
She is to do nothing that may degrade her self esteem.


My first thought is that if these rules are necessary to the relationship, there is an inherent instability in the relationship that needs to be addressed. 

My second thought is that rules such as these set both sides up for failure because of said instability.

My third thought is that stabilizing the relationship (in whatever fashion works for the parties involved) renders this question moot.


_____________________________



(in reply to Vargsten)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: I need Help with a philisophical D/s question... - 1/5/2008 3:15:00 PM   
Griswold


Posts: 2739
Joined: 2/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Vargsten

Dear Reader,

Today I wanted to throw out a question to all you die hard bdsm’rs out there. I was recently discussing rules and punishments with a fellow colleague.  Now the debate was this: If a Dom gives their submissive a set of ground rules she is expected to follow it or reap the consequences right? So what if a Dom breaks one of the rules themselves, what should happen to them?

Here were the rules given.

Rule #1
She is to do nothing detrimental to their relationship.

Impossible. 

Rule #2
She is to do nothing that may degrade her self esteem.

He can't control her self esteem (ever seen a woman cry because you gave her something fabulous...and then...3 days later be pissed about something that to the male brain seems almost identical????)...
 
These are 112% impossible rules for a woman to follow.
 
(Or for that matter...a man...because there's a woman involved).


(in reply to Vargsten)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: I need Help with a philisophical D/s question... - 1/5/2008 5:54:19 PM   
azureeyez


Posts: 1
Joined: 5/13/2007
Status: offline 		Firs off.. I started reading these boards about a week ago to try and get some ideas on topics to write in my journal, to help me grow, learn, and realize what i want and what i would do if situations like these arise in my life. This happens to be the first one i've replied to, because I felt the strongest about this topic of any i've read so far.

In reading almost everyone's responses, what i'm hearing is because the Dom is a Dom, He (I'm not excluding Dommes here, a He is just my preference) doesn't have to live up to the same standards He sets forth for His sub/slave. I can't seem to get that old catch phrase "Do as I say, not as I do"  out of my head that my mother used to say to me as a kid. Why should a Dom put a requirement on His sub that He is not willing Himself to do? Isn't that what the professional world says about management? How can you respect a manager thats going to bark orders and not be willing to get out there and do what He makes you do? Now, before you go off sending me hate mail, i know that there are some exceptions to this rule and whatever those exceptions are need to be discussed between the Dom and the sub, because as we all know, each relationship is different.

Secondly, How many times did i read, He's the Dom, why should He have to abide by the same rules. He's the Dom, why should anything happen to him other than to have to apologize.He's the Dom, so the sub should accept His apology or move on, he shouldnt have any consequences for His actions because He's the Dom.  I realize that the Dom is in charge, and I, as His sub, am here to serve, to please, to obey. But just because He is in charge, and i am under his authority, does NOT make him better than me, just different than me.

So, in answer to your question, i could respect a Dom that holds themselves to a certain standard and not afraid to give himself a repercussion alot more than i could one that would say "yeah, i screwed up, deal with it or not cause i'm the Dom." What would be so "unDomly" about saying "I screwed up, I hurt you, I'm sorry, I was wrong, and to prove I'm sorry here is what I'm going to allow...... insert something here.... (know that dress you've been eyeing? or friday night is yours, whatever you want to do we'll do..... or you know that show you've been wanting me to watch with you?) I know I know, because i'm a sub, and i suggested it, that'll never fly, but... would be nice.

azzie

(in reply to LaTigresse)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: I need Help with a philisophical D/s question... - 1/5/2008 5:59:11 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: azureeyez

So, in answer to your question, i could respect a Dom that holds themselves to a certain standard and not afraid to give himself a repercussion alot more than i could one that would say "yeah, i screwed up, deal with it or not cause i'm the Dom." What would be so "unDomly" about saying "I screwed up, I hurt you, I'm sorry, I was wrong, and to prove I'm sorry here is what I'm going to allow...... insert something here.... (know that dress you've been eyeing? or friday night is yours, whatever you want to do we'll do..... or you know that show you've been wanting me to watch with you?) I know I know, because i'm a sub, and i suggested it, that'll never fly, but... would be nice.


Of course, I wouldn't presume to tell you what sort of dynamic you should employ in your own relationships... just responding to that which you're commenting upon in others (and perhaps my own).
 
I'm with you on stepping up to the plate when I make a mistake.  I'm with you about apologizing for what I do wrong, and how that impacts my partner.  But when someone suggests that I have to buy forgiveness?  Nah, I'm not on board with that.
 
John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to azureeyez)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: I need Help with a philisophical D/s question... - 1/5/2008 7:27:38 PM   
Elegant


Posts: 1024
Joined: 3/15/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Vargsten

.....I think this is a serious question and I’m looking for a good philosophical discussion to help make up my mind. Thank you for reading this and/or responding.

Chris


Will you join the discussion at all? (or is it against your rules?)




_____________________________

Elegant
~Slave To Master Archer

http://www.FantasiesInLeather.com

(in reply to Vargsten)
Profile   Post #: 40
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