RE: I'm completely devoted, but... (Full Version)

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kyraofMists -> RE: I'm completely devoted, but... (1/10/2008 8:42:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: oliderid
this si so important. 


Do you think that deciding who to enter into an intimate long term relationship with is less important than deciding who to vote for?

Knight's Kyra



SubbieOnWheels -> RE: I'm completely devoted, but... (1/10/2008 8:56:02 AM)

Maybe I'm different from other subs/slaves, but I can't imagine giving up that much of my identity to the control of someone else, no matter how much I love him. I have had activities that I like, even love, taken away from me - by life, in the form of disabilities. I would never give away what I have left.

My thoughts, opinion, skills, and talents are MINE. They belong to no one else. A partner may have my loyalty and faithfulness (freely given) and my submission (by my nature), but he can never TAKE my self-respect and self-confidence. Those are mine by virtue of my being human.

SubbieOnWheel



DesFIP -> RE: I'm completely devoted, but... (1/10/2008 9:09:50 AM)

Well, I wouldn't get involved with a Republican or Conservative to begin with.

However, I think that voting should be off limits because it doesn't just involve the sub. As we saw in Florida, just a few votes determined the identity of the present President. And it's illegal to vote twice which is effectively what would happen if the sub has to vote as the dom directs.

It wouldn't be her vote counting, it would be him voting twice. And unless you're in Chicago thirty years ago, that's wrong.



Mercnbeth -> RE: I'm completely devoted, but... (1/10/2008 10:30:04 AM)

~ Fast Reply ~

Anyone else find it as interesting as I do to note that the only exclusionary (Bigoted?) references are from those saying that they wouldn't consider anyone 'republican' or 'conservative'. Never recall in this, or any other thread, where a similar exclusionary reference was made pointed to those identified as 'liberal' or 'democratic'.

As a devote pragmatist with an insatiable desire to learn I'm beginning to wonder if its a function of the insecurity and lack of confidence in their philosophy or if 'open minded' and 'liberal' are mutually exclusive.

When I was searching or when contemplating adding another - consideration if the person is Marxist, Maoist, or member of the John Birch society wouldn't be in the top 1000 of factors considered.



AquaticSub -> RE: I'm completely devoted, but... (1/10/2008 10:36:08 AM)

Well, it makes sense on one level. If you give your owner the right to control your vote, then you are going to want an owner who will use that vote the way you think it should be used.

If, like me, you think it's abusing the system to do so, the politicial party of your owner matters a lot less. But if I were going to let a man control my vote, I wouldn't give that control to someone who didn't agree with me on most things politically and socially.



fluffyswitch -> RE: I'm completely devoted, but... (1/10/2008 10:42:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SubbieOnWheels

Maybe I'm different from other subs/slaves, but I can't imagine giving up that much of my identity to the control of someone else, no matter how much I love him. I have had activities that I like, even love, taken away from me - by life, in the form of disabilities. I would never give away what I have left.

My thoughts, opinion, skills, and talents are MINE. They belong to no one else. A partner may have my loyalty and faithfulness (freely given) and my submission (by my nature), but he can never TAKE my self-respect and self-confidence. Those are mine by virtue of my being human.

SubbieOnWheel



nope. me too. i was starting to wonder if i could possibly be the only one lol.



oliderid -> RE: I'm completely devoted, but... (1/10/2008 10:50:23 AM)

First I'm not slave, I play top/bottom (I'm switch). So take it as it is.
you diminish the freedom of this society if you don't vote accordingly to your own will, . This freedom allowing you/me/anybody in this forum Master/Slave/Switch/etc to live our passion. A democracy (and thus tolerance) is a peaceful perpetual conflict of ideas. It needs your ideas as much than mine. IMHO

Concerning your question..I consider this principle higher than me or anybody. If I renounce to my freedom, I would feel like a traitor to those who died for or died during the oppresion.




RoughFN -> RE: I'm completely devoted, but... (1/10/2008 11:18:23 AM)

All of these pro-democracy arguments just don't sway me at all. The point about how ordering a vote indirectly involves other people and hence should be off limits is a reasonable one and would be something for me to reflect upon, but not necessarily agree with.

But the rest of it? Hooey.

For one thing, if it's truly your vote to do with as you wish, then who cares if you're giving it to your master? You've made the decision, you've made the choice, and now he does what he wants with it. Your vote is so dearly cleverly special and uniquely you and you can't decide what to do with it? Newsflash - giving it over to someone else is just as valid (IMHO) as voting for a particular candidate. You can't tell someone that they can't do it while simultaneously professing the virtues of the free and open system upon which are society is founded. It ain't that free and open if you can't give it away.

(as a side note, I'm in the camp that has no problem whatsoever with people that want to swap/trade/sell their votes. It's my vote and I'll do whatever the hell I want with it).

Further, if a slave presented the argument to me that she can't give away her vote because that's not what the government intended, then I'd laugh in her face. That's almost completely invalid. Sure, there's that small segment of the population that's going to assume that The Government is always right and loves them and has their best interests at heart. But the rest of us? I guarantee that there's something that's been regulated that you disagree with. Just focusing on sexual things like we talk about around here - gay marriage, polyfidelity, fornication, sodomy. There are all sorts of things that are regulated and restricted.

"But wait," you cry, "One person one vote is necessary for society!"

"But wait," I reply as the devil's advocate, "So are laws comdemning sodomy because the family structure will fall apart if I stick it in your butt!"

If one person can say that sodomy laws are silly and pointless, then it's equally valid for another to say that you can give away your vote to whoever you choose.

You don't get to cherry pick which laws to blindly follow, and I would never allow that as a valid reason if someone protested such an order. If you really want to convince me that I shouldn't restrict your vote, then you will need to convince me.

Further, when I started this thread I never implied that the Master would be taking away your thoughts/opinions/ideas/sense of self. I just asked about requests that were clearly outside of the realm of bdsm (and everyone continued it as a voting thread, since that was the immediate example). You can still be a political zealot of whatever cloth you're cut from and give away your vote. The items are mutually exclusive. Sure, your master is removing one way for you to act on those convictions, but your thoughts remain your own. Especially considering the number of people in the country who have strong opinions about the state of politics and government yet never can be bothered to actually go vote, this doesn't seem like an unreasonable position.

If we want to segue into changing your slave's thoughts and sense of self, we can start another thread. [:)]



ownedgirlie -> RE: I'm completely devoted, but... (1/10/2008 11:32:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RoughFN

I always find it interesting where people draw lines and what they do when they're crossed.


There are no lines, in my case.  There is no "but" to my devotion.  BitaTruble expressed it best, in my opinion.  Mr. Wonderful currently has no desire to instruct me where to place my vote.  If he did, then that is what my vote would be.  I wouldn't think twice.

It seems your OP is about anything non-BDSM related, however, and you were using a vote as an example.  My response remains the same regardless of what it is he wishes of me, and my life is an example of that.



AquaticSub -> RE: I'm completely devoted, but... (1/10/2008 11:42:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RoughFN

You don't get to cherry pick which laws to blindly follow, and I would never allow that as a valid reason if someone protested such an order. If you really want to convince me that I shouldn't restrict your vote, then you will need to convince me.



It has nothing to do with blindly following.

It has everything to do with the fact that I do believe that in elections, one person gets one vote and that is it. Use, don't use it, don't care but that's all you get. It also has to do with the fact that we long agreed that he only owns me. He can only control me, when his orders to me could hurt other people (and if I was told to vote for someone that I didn't like, yes I would consider that hurting others but that is a political debate) he will simply own a disobedient girl. I would not obey a command to go up to someone and call them a fag, I would not obey a command to vote for someone who considers homosexual people fags.

Just because you happen to agree with a law doesn't mean you are blindly following it.



RoughFN -> RE: I'm completely devoted, but... (1/10/2008 11:51:50 AM)

quote:

It has nothing to do with blindly following.


Several of the posts in the thread have taken the tone of "But that's what it's supposed to be! We have to abide by it!" And that's not going to convince me. If a girl's so convinced that it's right, then it's up to her to convince me. I would expect an argument based upon her own beliefs and why it's meaningful and so important to her, not just parroting back dogma.

Note - please please please nobody get into a big announcement of why these beliefs are important to you and why it matters so much since I really don't care. I was merely raising the point that parroted dogma along the lines of how a lot of these posts have appeared wouldn't convince me and that a girl would need to mount a more convincing argument. But nobody here actually needs to do it since it's just not important. It would be important if my girl tried to refuse and then had to mount an argument.



AquaticSub -> RE: I'm completely devoted, but... (1/10/2008 11:59:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RoughFN

quote:

It has nothing to do with blindly following.


Several of the posts in the thread have taken the tone of "But that's what it's supposed to be! We have to abide by it!" And that's not going to convince me. If a girl's so convinced that it's right, then it's up to her to convince me. I would expect an argument based upon her own beliefs and why it's meaningful and so important to her, not just parroting back dogma.



Ahh, I understand now. Sorry.



RoughFN -> RE: I'm completely devoted, but... (1/10/2008 12:07:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

He can only control me, when his orders to me could hurt other people (and if I was told to vote for someone that I didn't like, yes I would consider that hurting others but that is a political debate) he will simply own a disobedient girl.


Actually, as I thought about it, this caught my attention. I'm not replying directly to AquaticSub, but addressing everyone, since similar points have been raised previously. In this post, "You" is a generic.

To sum up, I think this argument is a red herring.

Why does everybody here seem to be focusing on your master hurting everyone else and the need to valiantly your fellow man? There seems to be some implicit instruction that an owner would go out and order you to do something spiteful or mean with intent to harm others. I have to assume that he would be doing it with the best of intentions to make the world a better place.

I mean, if a couple has completely radically polar opposite leanings, they're probably not going to make it as a couple and I don't think this one demand would be the tipping point. Are all the pairs on here really that completely different from each other?

It's possible that the two would be very close together but each leans slightly on one side of the fence compared to the other. Sub likes the candidate who parts his hair on the right, Dom likes the one that parts on the left. Or whatever. But even in that case, presumably the pair are fairly ideologically similar so while the order might not be the best candidate for the job, he might be "good enough". Is it still a big deal then?

Finally, continuing the blasted voting example since it's what we all seem to want to focus on, what happens if you're ordered to vote for the candidate you would have voted for anyway? Are there still these same arguments or do they fade away? If it's truly about protecting other people and saving the world, I'd think that you'd have to refuse the order anyway, announce that who you vote for is none of your master's business, and then go vote for the same candidate anyway (there's no way for him to find out, after all (we hope)). Because if you'd just back down and "agree" to the order because it doesn't impact you, it sounds hypocritical to me.

Because if you're really focused on the ideal of 1 person 1 vote and the founding principles of democracy and not losing oneself in their owner, and all that, who he actually orders you to vote for should be completely irrelevant, and likewise whether the order would help or harm others. You'd have to refuse it no matter who the candidate was. So the point of potentially harming others is a red herring. There's a 50/50 chance you would've agreed with him anyway (arguably greater, since you're a couple).

So who would really stick to their guns and fight the order, just due to the fact that it's an order, and how many are only focused on the assumption that their master would choose the wrong person and are fighting that?

If it's the former, then props to you for your convictions. If it's the latter, it sounds like you might need to have a talk with someone about where you two stand.



oliderid -> RE: I'm completely devoted, but... (1/10/2008 12:34:26 PM)

quote:


For one thing, if it's truly your vote to do with as you wish, then who cares if you're giving it to your master?


Because it is a gift. A gift you received from the millions of men, women and children who died for it. How can you treat it like this?

quote:


"But wait," I reply as the devil's advocate, "So are laws comdemning sodomy because the family structure will fall apart if I stick it in your butt!"


That's precisly the point, you can practice sodomy because your vote matters. Any mainstream politicians won't ever condemn it because he fears losing votes. If suddenly people practising sodomy don't vote; so who cares?

quote:

Especially considering the number of people in the country who have strong opinions about the state of politics and government yet never can be bothered to actually go vote, this doesn't seem like an unreasonable position.


Err well let's agree to disagree :-). Let's say that I'm really involved in politics especially the ones protecting freedom in any form, you don't.
And I'm quite glad that my vote helped a party to allow gay marriage in my country or allowed euthanasy or reinforced the free market. I will never really understand such an approach when there are still so many things to change.





RoughFN -> RE: I'm completely devoted, but... (1/10/2008 12:47:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: oliderid

quote:


For one thing, if it's truly your vote to do with as you wish, then who cares if you're giving it to your master?


Because it is a gift. A gift you received from the millions of men, women and children who died for it. How can you treat it like this?



How can I treat it like that? Because it's a gift that was given to me by the millions of men, women, and children who died for it?

It's not fair to say, "here's your power to vote and live freely, but you can only do X, Y, and Z with it." If the thing is truly about freedom and openness and all of that, then you should be equally free to give your vote away to your master to use as he sees fit.

I just don't see how someone can claim that it's all about freedom and harmony and democracy and openness and then try to restrict what is done with it. They're two completely contradictory concepts. It's all about being free to do as you wish, or it's all about following the rules and regulations about how you are forced to participate. Pick one. I'm in the former camp.



BeingChewsie -> RE: I'm completely devoted, but... (1/10/2008 1:09:36 PM)

Fast Reply:

R doesn't allow me to vote. It is just another one of those things he decides and up until this point has not felt the need to make use of my vote. He may decide to use my vote in the future but up until this point has not.





juliaoceania -> RE: I'm completely devoted, but... (1/10/2008 1:31:52 PM)

I would vote for whomever my Daddy told me to, but then again I made sure we had very compatible views, values, and educational background before I decided that he should decide the things he wants to decide. He has not told me to whom to vote for, and I find it highly unlikely that he would. He finds discussions about politics with me to be illuminating to him about certain things. He enlightens me as well... we are truly compatible in this arena.

That being said, there is a restaurant I was kinda boycotting because of the political affiliation of the owner, and my Daddy told me to stop boycotting this establishment because people have a right to their political opinions and I needed to be more accepting and tolerant, so I now will go to this place again... because he told me to.

If there comes a time where I feel I cannot submit to what he tells me to, and if after much discussion he can't respect that, and I find it is damaging to me, well we will cross that bridge when we come to it. I think it would be hard to press me to that point, but while I do have limits... voting his way would not be one of them



kyraofMists -> RE: I'm completely devoted, but... (1/10/2008 1:48:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: oliderid
you diminish the freedom of this society if you don't vote accordingly to your own will, . This freedom allowing you/me/anybody in this forum Master/Slave/Switch/etc to live our passion. A democracy (and thus tolerance) is a peaceful perpetual conflict of ideas. It needs your ideas as much than mine. IMHO


What society?  I am no longer a resident of the US.  I now reside in Canada where I cannot vote at all since I am not a citizen.  I legally immigrated to this country upon his instructions.  I am not sure I understand how the freedom that I have to move to another country diminishes other people's freedoms? 

quote:

Concerning your question..I consider this principle higher than me or anybody. If I renounce to my freedom, I would feel like a traitor to those who died for or died during the oppresion.
 

Since I have renounced my right to vote in the US by no longer being a permanent resident, do you consider me a traitor? 

What is freedom if not the right to live the way you want to live?  Or is it only freedom as long as they live the way others think they should live? 

Thank you for your answer, but if freedom is so very important to you then I don't understand the negativity towards others exercising their freedom to live the way they choose.

Knight's Kyra





hisannabelle -> RE: I'm completely devoted, but... (1/10/2008 3:16:46 PM)

greetings oliderid,

my master served in the military for 30 years, in several different war zones, and worked in iraq after he got out of the military more recently (and has considered returning there). i chose to give up my will to him, and if that makes me a bad american, well, i'm a bad american. personally, i consider myself patriotic, and i don't think it's traitorous at all to have made my own free decision to become someone else's property (and thus have everything about me and of me be their property).

greetings merc,

i'm a liberal owned by a conservative! i don't just write people off because they are conservative, LOL. give some of us a bit of credit. ;)

annabelle.



fluffyswitch -> RE: I'm completely devoted, but... (1/10/2008 4:07:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RoughFN


Further, when I started this thread I never implied that the Master would be taking away your thoughts/opinions/ideas/sense of self. .... Sure, your master is removing one way for you to act on those convictions, but your thoughts remain your own.

just because i'm trained to argue my position, no. if i am not allowed to act on my convictions then my master is in fact removing my ability to have my own opinion. i am being told to embrace their position, not mine, which TO ME would violate my own sense of self. to each his own.



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