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ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Which "Western and Eastern cultuers" are you talking about?  They're not all the same.  Is there a checkpoint or something that you cross somewhere: "Caution: Entering the East Now"?  What you wrote here is typical of lazy dyadic thinking: take two reductionist categories, "show" why they go to opposite extremes, and try to blaze an innovative path between Scylla and Charybdis.

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ORIGINAL: Shadowkeeper

A conversation with a fellow member on here has brought back some of my thoughts on Submission in the Western Vs Eastern cultuers.  The West is too open and free which ends up making the women feel a great gap with in them, a void that needs to be filled. One extreme leads to another extreme in different ways on both sides of the coin.

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ORIGINAL: Shadowkeeper

If you read what I wrote above, I mentioned that I grew up in the MIDDLE EAST. Look it up on the map.

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ORIGINAL: hisannabelle

greetings shadowkeeper,

qualifying it and repeating it doesn't make it any truer, in my experience.

women need no more guidance than men - and not all masters believe in "training." i was a whole person before i met my master, i'm still a whole person, i'm capable of taking care of myself and fulfilling my own life - i don't need him to do that for me. he wouldn't have it any other way.

happening to have been born with ovaries does not make one anymore likely to be submissive than happening to have been born with testes. growing up in the "east" does not make one anymore likely to be submissive than growing up in the "west." et cetera, et cetera. repeating that and trying to justify it as common knowledge and/or true because you moved around a bit and met a few different women doesn't actually make it true.

respectfully,
annabelle.

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ORIGINAL: Shadowkeeper\
It baffles me however, how some people take some of my words at face value.

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ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

OK, what is "the Midde East"?  Israel?  Iran?  Urban Iran?  Rural Iran?  Yemen?  Armenia?  Turkey?  Don't pretend that "the Middle East" is any less reductionist than "Eastern culture."

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ORIGINAL: Shadowkeeper

If you read what I wrote above, I mentioned that I grew up in the MIDDLE EAST. Look it up on the map.

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ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Technically speaking, that's the Near East, not the Middle East.  (If Lebanon is in the Middle East, where exactly is the Near East?  Out in the Mediterranean Sea?)  The Middle East is supposed to refer to Iran, Afghanistan, and so on.

Anyway, putting Jordan and Saudi Arabia in the same category as far as gender relations go is pretty absurd.  I think you're kind of missing the point that you're speaking in unacceptable generalities, and since I don't have more to say than that, I'm done with this thread.

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ORIGINAL: Shadowkeeper

First I want to thank everyone who actually had something intelligent to reply with. In other words people who actually spoke their opinion about the topic not the poster.
 
It baffles me however, how some people take some of my words at face value. Needing to be “trained” does not make you less of a whole person. Let me ask you this, before your current Master, were you sure of ALL your limitations? I am not speaking of sexual terms, but over all with in the relationship. Were you able to discern the full meaning of what it is for you to submit to him?

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Did it not take time for you to “grow” into the submissive you are now?  And of course you are still growing are you not? In some ways on your own and in others throw him. You had all the ingredients, but he polished them and made them shine brighter, did he not?

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And coming from someone who has never lived in the Middle East, or has any extensive ties to people from that region, can you really make such a statement “growing up in the "east" does not make one anymore likely to be submissive than growing up in the "west."

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You obviously have no idea what it is like for a woman to grow up in the Middle East and how this influences her way of thinking and living. As well as what she takes as the “normal” or lack there of it, in a relationship.

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I never said men do not need guidance. The difference is, in my opinion, is that women need a more DIRECT form of guidance. While men need the INDIRECT form from their submissives or slaves. But that is a whole other topic on its own. 
 

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My opinions are MY TRUTHS, just that. It is my mistake in not properly wording some of my sentences. But then again I am typing this on the go. I am not rereading it all and thinking what would sound politically correct or incorrect. 
 

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 I am here to debate my opinions. I am not here to enforce them. Those opinions are not based on just traveling, but on living and fully interacting with people in two sides of the world.

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ORIGINAL: junecleaver

If what you are saying is that....women who are oppressed and forced to submit are less likely to want to submit to a partner and women who are freely given the right to choose are more likely to want to submit to a partner...then I know a lot of people like that.  But I can think of at least three women, formerly bullied and abused, empowered by their choice to submit.

I'm taking a lot of courses on Spanish culture and civilization.  I've oftened wondered how machismo and their more common views of women fit into the kinkier parts of their sexuality.  Like if more hispanic women are bottoms, because that's what is culturally acceptable?  Or if it is still just a matter of 'wiring' for everyone, no matter their backgrounds?

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ORIGINAL: Shadowkeeper

However, the surrounding environment affects how that inclination is manifested.
 
For example, I had no idea what sex was until I was 14. I did not even know the basic anatomy of women. And had never seen a naked woman. However, since I was perhaps 7 or 8, I always had an urge to physically, which later I realized was sexually, to dominate females. Keep in mind that I had no idea about any sexual information what so ever. Add to that an urge to over power females psychologically.
 
I can trace all these feelings and thoughts all the way back to my childhood. How those urges, desires and needs grew and developed was greatly affects by the mixture of cultures I lived in.

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ORIGINAL: thetammyjo


to think that you had it figured out in only three years by age 19 is just laughable.

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ORIGINAL: hisannabelle

greetings shadowkeeper,

i didn't "grow into" anything. i grew as a person. there is a difference. we are always growing as people. i was a perfectly good slave when we got together and i'm a perfectly good slave now, i'm just different, because i've been through different things in the last two years than i had in the 18 before that. it isn't about "growing into" anything or becoming a better anything or anything along those lines.

you're right, i haven't lived in the middle east - however, i do have extensive ties to people who have lived in the middle east, i've talked to middle eastern women, i know what it's like to be a western submissive woman, i've studied islam from the point of view of both history and academia to some extent and plan to study more, and have studied other eastern cultures in which women might be seen as "more submissive" far more extensively as well. actually, before i realized you were only talking about the middle east, i was thinking in my original post of the archetype of the submissive indian woman, because from my own experience in southeast asian studies and women's studies and talking to indian women and reading about indian women, indian feminism, and western women who study and live in india, i would never draw the conclusion that indian women are "naturally" or "culturally" submissive. i don't see how that is any more true for middle eastern women. as a woman, i don't see how you can even find it "generally" true for all women (particularly since, if we're discussing qualifications, where did you get your qualification to speak for women?).

edited to add: i don't get the "direct/indirect guidance" issue or how that relates to your earlier argument that submission is determined by, as someone else so eloquently mentioned, reductionist cultural and gender categories. i haven't seen any reasoning in your posts that actually points to the idea that men and women "need different guidance," and your earlier posts sounded a lot like you think women need men's guidance, not that it's a two way street. furthermore, where do intersexed and non-heterosexual people fit in?

respectfully,
annabelle.

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ORIGINAL: Shadowkeeper

I shall rephrase the question. Can you deny that his ownership of you has made you more in tune with yourself? And your slavery or choice of submission? Vs when he did not own you? 
 

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ORIGINAL: Shadowkeeper

I am not speaking about the last one hundred years or even the last 50 years. I am speaking about the last 30 years and up until today. The normal in the Western society is to have no independence on men. May it be emotional, financial or in any means. Perhaps that is more evident in industrial and capital cities.