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RE: Submission. East Vs West - 1/11/2008 2:51:11 PM   
sakidorei


Posts: 65
Status: offline 		Shadow Keeper ...
 
i choose to submit ... yes, but do i believe that for me it's a biological imperative ... yes.  i could not make the choice ... of course, however i've learned that it makes my life much much less.  i am financially independent, reasonably intelligent, and professionally successful.  i have a degree in Psychology and minor in Religion.  i also have my Masters in Social Work.  i sit on several boards including two non-profit organizations and two successful companies.  Given all that i have accomplished and been tasked to accomplish ... it might be shocking or offensive for some that i'd agree with You.  Each Master that i've had HAS enriched my life, my understanding of myself and inspired greater improvements in me overall. 
 
i recently read A Thousand Splendid Suns by Khaled Hosseini and it gave me some provacative food for thought.  i have studied Islam extensively however, something about reading this book about the lives of several women in Afghanistan gave me cause to pause in some of my views.  In general my thinking is HIGHLY unPC in it's approach to -roles- and proclivities among the sexes however this book put things in a new light for me.  i certainly came away thinking that i am VERY VERY thankful that i live in a country in which my submission is a choice, not a legal sanctioned/mandated -station- in which abusive, unspeakable conduct is protected/encouraged against women. 
 
i don't share much of my personal views on this subject here simply because it's a hot button and You really aren't going to get much respectful discourse.  It offends women and men and i keep my views to myself as to why i think that's the case.  i rather think i'd really prefer a Spartan culture myself ... strong women, stronger Men ... the weak are weeded out early.  ~laughs~ "Because only Spartan women give birth to real men."
 
You picked a tough crowd for this discussion and i'm really not surprised that You've taken a beaten for it.  It's a shame when You are denigrated for Your thoughts here ... by those who don't choose to take up the actual merit of debunking them.  At least You didn't resort to insults and name calling and dismissal of everyone who doesn't agree with YOUR perspective.  In my book that at least puts You somewhere at the head of the crowd for discussion purposes ... regardless of life experience. 
 
Good luck Sir.
 
~saki
Property of Master D.

_____________________________

Followers, do not backlead. Not only does it make leading more difficult, but it also makes it more difficult for the leader to avoid collisions.

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Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Submission. East Vs West - 1/12/2008 6:11:55 AM   
PeggyO


Posts: 129
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Hello,

The issue here really isn't that the OP has an opinion - it's the unsubstantiated statement of "fact" and applying this "fact" to all members of a particular gender that is creating the problem. 

Not all women have a biological imperative to be submissive to men.  That is an accurate statement of fact.  The OP's statement that all women need to be submissive to men is simply not accurate.  It cannot be substantiated by any study of biology, anthropology, psychology or human sexuality.  The OP would have a similarly negative response if he were to state that the earth is flat - for similar reasons.  Simply put, his facts are wrong.

Based on my observation, some women have a biological imperative to submit.  Some men do too.  However, to hard code submission into gender is not only factually incorrect, it's pretty disrespectful to the significant number of people who simply don't fit that pre-defined gender role.

Be well,

Peggy

(in reply to sakidorei)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Submission. East Vs West - 1/13/2008 5:42:46 PM   
Shadowkeeper


Posts: 16
Joined: 1/18/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ravennfyre


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shadowkeeper

quote:

ORIGINAL: hardbodysub

quote:

The key is to give the women the choice to submit in the manner they so choose, according to thier compatibility with the man they choose to submit to.


Why is it you choose to submit?
Interesting conclusion. They can submit any way they want to, but they must submit, and to a man. The choice you allow them isn't much of a choice, is it?


It is not a MUST. It is a NEED, built-in biological and psychological need. The male needs to dominate his female and his female needs to submit to him.
 
I really like this quote that AquaticSub has as a signature “Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different." - My Beloved (AKA Valyraen)”

Both roles are integral. However, both roles, but this post is specially about females, need to be allowed to flourish without force from cultural or social rules.


I don't "NEED" to submit. I CHOOSE to submit.
Big difference here, buster.

(in reply to ravennfyre)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Submission. East Vs West - 1/13/2008 5:43:57 PM   
Shadowkeeper


Posts: 16
Joined: 1/18/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ravennfyre


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shadowkeeper

quote:

ORIGINAL: hardbodysub

quote:

The key is to give the women the choice to submit in the manner they so choose, according to thier compatibility with the man they choose to submit to.


Interesting conclusion. They can submit any way they want to, but they must submit, and to a man. The choice you allow them isn't much of a choice, is it?


It is not a MUST. It is a NEED, built-in biological and psychological need. The male needs to dominate his female and his female needs to submit to him.
 
I really like this quote that AquaticSub has as a signature “Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different." - My Beloved (AKA Valyraen)”

Both roles are integral. However, both roles, but this post is specially about females, need to be allowed to flourish without force from cultural or social rules.


I don't "NEED" to submit. I CHOOSE to submit.
Big difference here, buster.


Why is it you choose to submit?

(in reply to ravennfyre)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Submission. East Vs West - 1/13/2008 5:44:57 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeggyO

Hello,

The issue here really isn't that the OP has an opinion - it's the unsubstantiated statement of "fact" and applying this "fact" to all members of a particular gender that is creating the problem. 

Not all women have a biological imperative to be submissive to men.  That is an accurate statement of fact.  The OP's statement that all women need to be submissive to men is simply not accurate.  It cannot be substantiated by any study of biology, anthropology, psychology or human sexuality.  The OP would have a similarly negative response if he were to state that the earth is flat - for similar reasons.  Simply put, his facts are wrong.

Based on my observation, some women have a biological imperative to submit.  Some men do too.  However, to hard code submission into gender is not only factually incorrect, it's pretty disrespectful to the significant number of people who simply don't fit that pre-defined gender role.

Be well,

Peggy


Bingo.

BTW, I'm really amused that he has mentioned my quote but not responded to anything I've said.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to PeggyO)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Submission. East Vs West - 1/13/2008 5:46:43 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shadowkeeper

Why is it you choose to submit?


Why do some women choose to not submit?

Why do some people like country music and others like hip-hop?

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to Shadowkeeper)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Submission. East Vs West - 1/13/2008 5:48:58 PM   
Shadowkeeper


Posts: 16
Joined: 1/18/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: msub4Domme

Paraphrasing a quote a few posts back -- referring to the "nned" for a woman to submit to a man.  Well, lets. see.  From my knowledge of history i do not think that Catherine The Great was any more "submissive" than Ivan the Terrible.  And we have Queen Victoria and Her consort Prince Albert (he of the piercing).  And we have women warriors -- the Amazons who fought with the Trojans against the Greeks (not exactly submissive sisters) and those special, very secretive Chinese ladies who are hired as body guards who are quite adept at all sorts of behaviors, some rather brutal to aggressors.  In recent times, i would have liked to have seen Willy Clinton's butt after Hillary found out about Monica!


I never said anything about women lacking the ability to be leaders. What I said is that, even a strong female leader, in her personal life, needs a stronger male figure in her life.

(in reply to msub4Domme)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Submission. East Vs West - 1/13/2008 5:49:42 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shadowkeeper

quote:

ORIGINAL: msub4Domme

Paraphrasing a quote a few posts back -- referring to the "nned" for a woman to submit to a man.  Well, lets. see.  From my knowledge of history i do not think that Catherine The Great was any more "submissive" than Ivan the Terrible.  And we have Queen Victoria and Her consort Prince Albert (he of the piercing).  And we have women warriors -- the Amazons who fought with the Trojans against the Greeks (not exactly submissive sisters) and those special, very secretive Chinese ladies who are hired as body guards who are quite adept at all sorts of behaviors, some rather brutal to aggressors.  In recent times, i would have liked to have seen Willy Clinton's butt after Hillary found out about Monica!


I never said anything about women lacking the ability to be leaders. What I said is that, even a strong female leader, in her personal life, needs a stronger male figure in her life.


So what about lesbians?

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to Shadowkeeper)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Submission. East Vs West - 1/13/2008 6:07:06 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		The only thing is that true about "most women" is that they are similar biologically (and sometimes even that is not true).  The problem shadowkeeper is that you are attempting to make a statement that applies to the majority of people based on gender.  I don't think it's even remotely true that most women are submissive or even desire to be, in fact, I would say it's quite the opposite in the US these days and almost all of my female friends would shun me if they knew I had submissive tendencies. 

It's equally not true that strong women NEED men period.  You seem to believe that the female gender is not self-sufficient and NEEDS the male gender to be whole.  I love men, I desire men, I will even submit to men, but do I NEED them?  No, because I was raised to be independent and self-sufficient.  There is no biological imperitive to submit or NEED to do so, in fact I'm odd by today's standards for wanting to.  This isn't the 50's.

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to Shadowkeeper)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Submission. East Vs West - 1/13/2008 6:11:51 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3


I love men, I desire men, I will even submit to men, but do I NEED them?  No, because I was raised to be independent and self-sufficient.  There is no biological imperitive to submit or NEED to do so, in fact I'm odd by today's standards for wanting to.  This isn't the 50's.


Ditto.

Also, I'm bi. I don't even need men to gain sexual satisfaction.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to laurell3)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Submission. East Vs West - 1/13/2008 6:47:32 PM   
txnights05


Posts: 51
Joined: 7/12/2005
Status: offline 		~fr~

i am one that does have the need. perhaps not the same as needing air, water, food, or sheltor and i don't need a man to provide those (he could do it better).  but if i am to ever feel truely happy with my life i need a dominate male with me.

do i think all or most females do?  not for a minute.... most of the women i have known were not very submissive with their partners... most ran the households and joked about how they let their men think that it was he that ran things.

it's a nice fantasy though.... i'd love to live there, a place where men were superior and we worshipped and served at their feet... loved, used, pampered and cared for like great treasure....  but a want, wish, desire or belief doesn't make it a reality.

pam

(in reply to AquaticSub)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Submission. East Vs West - 1/13/2008 6:59:47 PM   
sunshinemiss


Posts: 17673
Joined: 11/26/2007
Status: offline 		Wow... I live in the East and don't find this AT ALL.  Man, the women here are TOUGH and don't even think they are at all submissive... oh my NO!  But then I read further and saw you were talking about the MIDDLE EAST...

Where do people come up with these ideas that Group X is like "this" and Group Y is like "that"? 

I'd like to suggest that you keep this lil diatribe of yours and see if you still agree with it in 10 years, in 20 years, in 50 years.

Good luck and peace.

_____________________________

Yes, I am a wonton hussy... and still sweet as 3.14

(in reply to hisannabelle)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Submission. East Vs West - 1/13/2008 11:36:33 PM   
Feric


Posts: 227
Joined: 1/9/2008
From: San Francisco
Status: offline 		Having lived in the Orient, I can tell you quite honestly that while Westerners assume that there is a tradition for women to be submissive, the truth is quite the opposite. Eastern women couch their true nature beneath a cloak of docility while in actuality controlling events with almost Machiavellian complexity. Businesswomen from Bangkok to Osaka are more ruthless than their male counterparts, while exacting a heavy toll from those who underestimate them, leaving them penniless and bewildered before they realize the deal has even arrived.

Between the sheets, the Oriental woman is a study in complexities. Japanese women, for example, will often withhold from an overt actions, at least in the beginning. In this fashion, if they change their mind they can claim they were forced. Once on the go, they are aggressive, and their appetites are rapacious.

Oriental women are raised with a high degree of awareness regarding sexuality. While many cultures have an innate shyness about sex, such matters are considered part of life in the Orient, and much of the fencing around about sexual matters that are so prevalent in Western cultures are considered superfluous in Eastern ones. For the Asian woman, this means that direct action can be taken with few drawbacks. If they spot someone who catches their eye, however, watch out! They will pursue their quarry with a pace and plan of attack that would stagger their Western counterparts.

So, no, submission is not natural in the East, despite what you may have heard!



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A figure of startling and unexpected nobility...

(in reply to sunshinemiss)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Submission. East Vs West - 1/14/2008 6:17:49 AM   
hardbodysub


Posts: 1654
Joined: 8/7/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Here is the flaw in your thinking.... you have generalized all women in all cultures as being naturally submissive to men, when any sort of look into how cultures operate will show you that women are far more empowered than one would think them to be.


I agree with you, juliaoceania, but I'd say there are more than one flaw in his thinking. In addition to his logical flaw of overgeneralization, he also assigns the label "fact" to ideas which are merely his opinion, and not factual at all. These are signs of an untrained, narrow mind.

Frankly, I'm suspicious that he started this thread not because he actually believes what he wrote, but because he wanted to get everybody riled up and start a flame war. His premise is so ludicrous that it's difficult to conceive of someone actually believing it.

< Message edited by hardbodysub -- 1/14/2008 6:22:45 AM >

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Submission. East Vs West - 1/14/2008 6:27:04 AM   
sunshinemiss


Posts: 17673
Joined: 11/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Feric

So, no, submission is not natural in the East, despite what you may have heard!



points up to my part of the thread... he's talking about the MIDDLE EAST... I had the same misunderstanding, but I'm with you ...

and don't forget, he had it all clear in his mind when he was 19... I forget everything I knew when I was 19.. I gotta start living backwards or somehting. 

< Message edited by sunshinemiss -- 1/14/2008 6:29:18 AM >

_____________________________

Yes, I am a wonton hussy... and still sweet as 3.14

(in reply to Feric)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Submission. East Vs West - 1/14/2008 7:22:56 AM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline 		I just still want to know if he thinks lesbians need stronger men in their lives.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to sunshinemiss)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Submission. East Vs West - 1/14/2008 7:36:48 AM   
YesMistressIrish


Posts: 1135
Joined: 5/1/2007
From: Calif
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeggyO

Hello,

The issue here really isn't that the OP has an opinion - it's the unsubstantiated statement of "fact" and applying this "fact" to all members of a particular gender that is creating the problem. 

Not all women have a biological imperative to be submissive to men.  That is an accurate statement of fact.  The OP's statement that all women need to be submissive to men is simply not accurate.  It cannot be substantiated by any study of biology, anthropology, psychology or human sexuality.  The OP would have a similarly negative response if he were to state that the earth is flat - for similar reasons.  Simply put, his facts are wrong.

Based on my observation, some women have a biological imperative to submit.  Some men do too.  However, to hard code submission into gender is not only factually incorrect, it's pretty disrespectful to the significant number of people who simply don't fit that pre-defined gender role.

Be well,

Peggy

  
Tantriqu wrote:
'Lol, dude, naturally or nurturingly, genetically or environmentally, I could snap your will like a twig!  Trust Me. 
being a bully doesn't mean you get to call yourself a dom.  Let's chat with your [imaginary] girlfriends and see how you chalk up to their other partners with finding their g-spots and your aftercare. 
Remember the debate is not east/west, but religion/smart.  Religious women may be publicly passive but manipulative at home.  Smart women are publicly active and open at home.  I'd debate more, junior, but you have some SAM narcissistic tendencies that suggest you totally get off on this anonymity.
Wouldn't be surprised if the OPP will be calling you for a DNA sample sometime.  Go talk to a therapist before you hurt someone.  '
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I had some of the same thoughts and the above post gave me a great fit of giggles...



_____________________________

"Fortes fortuna iuvat” Virgil
Fortune favors the strong/bold.

(in reply to PeggyO)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Submission. East Vs West - 1/14/2008 9:49:51 AM   
Stephann


Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline 		You've obviously never tried to tell your grandmother 'no.'

Once upon a time, before technology enabled 3% of a country to feed the rest, with surplus to sell to other countries, most people spent a great deal of his day creating food.  The work required muscle; muscle to kill animals, muscle to pursuade obstinate animals, muscle to punch holes in the ground, muscle to carry heavy sacks, muscle to push millstones, muscle to put up house frames.  Men were that muscle; women's lives depended on the muscles (and to some degree, the brains) of men.

Today, that muscle has given way almost wholly to brains.  Women don't require men to erect houses or corral animals.  Women are just as capable as men of punching holes in circuits or coding software or presenting marketing plans.  Thus, countries that have experienced technological leaps also show women in prominent roles of leadership in business and politics.  There's no longer a biological necessity for women to be submissive, and society follows biology.

While our Western society works towards equilibrium, personality traits that were once socially enforced (dominance in men, submission in women) no longer have a biological requirement.  Thus, sons are no longer pushed to be dominant, nor are daughters forced to be submissive.  They become what they were genetically (supplanted by their environmentally) determined to be. 

The assertion that 'all women are submissive' or 'all men are dominant' is pure fallacy.  A similar prepossessed statement would go "since the most powerful life drive is to reproduce, all men and women are heterosexual."  Nature shows this assertion, too, fails.  If you're looking for justification of why you enjoy submissive women, you don't need to prove all women are submissive; you simply need to understand that some women are submissive.  Indeed, I'd agree that more women prefer to be submissive than there are dominant women, and there are statistics that support that position. 

Stephan


_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to Shadowkeeper)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Submission. East Vs West - 1/14/2008 9:54:05 AM   
charlotte12


Posts: 471
Joined: 5/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shadowkeeper


Both roles are integral. However, both roles, but this post is specially about females, need to be allowed to flourish without force from cultural or social rules.


The notion that it is only cultural pressure that pushes women to gain independence from men is a little complicated in my mind. I think in our society today there are mixed messages. Sure you see women encouraged to be independent, pursue a carreer, chose their own path but you still have the images of women being delicate and flighty pervading our lives as well. Have you ever picked up a magazine like Cosmo? There are more articles about "How to please your man" and the clothes you MUST have NOW to be sexy than about strong women in roles of power. I think there are very mixed messages these days.

But if you look back into the past you won't see any cultural pressure on women to form the womens rights movement. Women decided to fight for indepence and equality all on their own. Unless i missed the hidden chapter in history in which womens rights was headed by a slave being ordered by her Master to bring about change.

I am not saying that there aren't many women who desire to submit but have been told by their parents and friends and people around them that they mustn't ever be dependent on a man. But i think there are just as many women who long to run the world but have had lipstick and marraige shoved down their throats since birth. Not to mention women who desire other women  or many of the other possibilities of relationships that exist.

These opinions are coming from a self-proclaimed slave who desires to submit to her Master completely. So please don't take this as a rant against submission by any means. Simply a suggestion that if women didn't want independence they wouldn't have spent decades fighting for it or continue to fight for it today.

charlotte


_____________________________

Stephan's slaveling

"I'm not superior, I'm just more important." Master (Stephann)

"When you are your freest self, who are you?" Jack Rinella

(in reply to Shadowkeeper)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Submission. East Vs West - 1/14/2008 11:47:23 AM   
tulitukka


Posts: 95
Joined: 10/11/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shadowkeeper


Apparently I am a young inexperienced and immature idiot. Yet it seems none of the post replies had any actual intellect behind them. WOW impressive, older and more experienced Dominants and submissives.

I grew up in the Middle East, traveled to a few places in Europe and lived in North America half my life. During that time, I observed, and dated women and girls of various ages and backgrounds. But especially the most exploring I did was during my 16th and 19th years. I am not going to elaborate on my personal experiences because this post was not intended to inflame, brag or insult anyone.

This post’s purpose was to have an intelligent conversation. But it seems I misplaced my post in a high school forum on myspace.com or perhaps it’s facebook.


Now why don't you go and do some real tests of your hypothesis. You know, in science, it's customary to try to break one's hypothesis. And the stronger candidates for breaking one you have tried the more confident you can be about it. One of the strongest indicators that all women are not submissive is that there are women who claim to be dominant. So you should go to that group of women and then somehow show that they love being dominated, instead. It doesn't prove things, but it's a start.

(in reply to Shadowkeeper)
Profile   Post #: 80
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