RE: Submission. East Vs West

RE: Submission. East Vs West (Full Version)

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hardbodysub -> RE: Submission. East Vs West (1/10/2008 8:09:50 AM)
quote: The key is to give the women the choice to submit in the manner they so choose, according to thier compatibility with the man they choose to submit to. Interesting conclusion. They can submit any way they want to, but they must submit, and to a man. The choice you allow them isn't much of a choice, is it?

Shadowkeeper -> RE: Submission. East Vs West (1/10/2008 8:23:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thetammyjo quote: ORIGINAL: Shadowkeeper I am not speaking about the last one hundred years or even the last 50 years. I am speaking about the last 30 years and up until today. The normal in the Western society is to have no independence on men. May it be emotional, financial or in any means. Perhaps that is more evident in industrial and capital cities. Actually I think the "goal" whatever that is, at least in my part of the world was that each person in a relationship not be dependent on the other but that they work together to create a family, a household, and become better individuals. Sometimes one person is better at leading over all, sometimes leadership changes depending on the subject or need, and sometimes people can find a close balance. Life happens, people die or leave, each person has to be capable to live on her/his own. Of course life never stops. When a partner dies, may it be a dominant or submissive, their significant other should and must move on. I am not against that. Life does not end with losing the person you depended on. But life has a different feel, a different color and a whole different flavor with your partner. Dependence is not absolute.

hisannabelle -> RE: Submission. East Vs West (1/10/2008 8:25:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hardbodysub quote: The key is to give the women the choice to submit in the manner they so choose, according to thier compatibility with the man they choose to submit to. Interesting conclusion. They can submit any way they want to, but they must submit, and to a man. The choice you allow them isn't much of a choice, is it? very well said.

DesFIP -> RE: Submission. East Vs West (1/10/2008 8:27:35 AM)
Sure Indira Gandhi needed to kneel and be flogged while heading India's government. So did Margaret Chase Smith during her many years in the U.S. Senate and during her run for the presidency. Puh-lease! There are some women who are submissive, there are some women who are dominant, and a majority of whom wish to be considered of equal importance.

Shadowkeeper -> RE: Submission. East Vs West (1/10/2008 8:30:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hardbodysub quote: The key is to give the women the choice to submit in the manner they so choose, according to thier compatibility with the man they choose to submit to. Interesting conclusion. They can submit any way they want to, but they must submit, and to a man. The choice you allow them isn't much of a choice, is it? It is not a MUST. It is a NEED, built-in biological and psychological need. The male needs to dominate his female and his female needs to submit to him. I really like this quote that AquaticSub has as a signature “Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different." - My Beloved (AKA Valyraen)” Both roles are integral. However, both roles, but this post is specially about females, need to be allowed to flourish without force from cultural or social rules.

thetammyjo -> RE: Submission. East Vs West (1/10/2008 8:34:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Shadowkeeper quote: ORIGINAL: hardbodysub quote: The key is to give the women the choice to submit in the manner they so choose, according to thier compatibility with the man they choose to submit to. Interesting conclusion. They can submit any way they want to, but they must submit, and to a man. The choice you allow them isn't much of a choice, is it? It is not a MUST. It is a NEED, built-in biological and psychological need. The male needs to dominate his female and his female needs to submit to him. I really like this quote that AquaticSub has as a signature “Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different." - My Beloved (AKA Valyraen)” Both roles are integral. However, both roles, but this post is specially about females, need to be allowed to flourish without force from cultural or social rules. If it is a need why would there be people who do not have said need? If it's biology shouldn't it work for everyone in that biological group? I think you are attempting to make human being less complex than we really are. That's a very common thing to do.

Shadowkeeper -> RE: Submission. East Vs West (1/10/2008 8:45:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP Sure Indira Gandhi needed to kneel and be flogged while heading India's government. So did Margaret Chase Smith during her many years in the U.S. Senate and during her run for the presidency. Puh-lease! There are some women who are submissive, there are some women who are dominant, and a majority of whom wish to be considered of equal importance. It is not that one gender is better or more important than the other. A man has a role, which a woman cannot fulfill, and the woman has a role, which the man cannot replace. Now logically speaking, there is no such thing as equality in any type of relationship. And I do not mean only in terms of men and women, I mean between teammates, companies, even countries. Equality simply does not work. You cannot have a ship with two captains because the conflicts would end up sinking it. A man is the captain, a woman is his CO. He needs her by his side because he can make better choices due to her insight. And she needs his firmness and leadership because on her own she navigating the ship is more difficult. The questions are, is the Captain more important than the CO.? No, the captain is not or more important. He simply has a different role, which is enhanced by the CO’s support. Does that mean the CO is less than the Captain? Of course not. The CO on her own can navigate the ship, yes if needed. But her abilities would be maximized under the guidance of her captain. Communication is essential between the two parties. The captain needs to not be arrogant and to listen to what his Co says and take it into consideration. Rather than thinking he always knows it all. The CO should not defy the captain. Instead the CO needs to provide advice, not out of ambition to replace her captain, but out of the need to make their journey the best possible, by pointing out with respect what the captain may miss once in a while.

Shadowkeeper -> RE: Submission. East Vs West (1/10/2008 8:52:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thetammyjo quote: ORIGINAL: Shadowkeeper quote: ORIGINAL: hardbodysub quote: The key is to give the women the choice to submit in the manner they so choose, according to thier compatibility with the man they choose to submit to. Interesting conclusion. They can submit any way they want to, but they must submit, and to a man. The choice you allow them isn't much of a choice, is it? It is not a MUST. It is a NEED, built-in biological and psychological need. The male needs to dominate his female and his female needs to submit to him. I really like this quote that AquaticSub has as a signature “Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different." - My Beloved (AKA Valyraen)” Both roles are integral. However, both roles, but this post is specially about females, need to be allowed to flourish without force from cultural or social rules. If it is a need why would there be people who do not have said need? If it's biology shouldn't it work for everyone in that biological group? I think you are attempting to make human being less complex than we really are. That's a very common thing to do. We all need to eat do we not? Some of us are allergic to peanuts though, others are vegetarian, some hate spaghetti, others love burgers. Point is, in our complexity we are simple and in our simplicity we are complex. I am not trying to simplify human beings. I am speaking of what I personally deem the common ground of most, not all.

CdnExplorer -> RE: Submission. East Vs West (1/10/2008 8:54:24 AM)
Sorry, but I have to call BS on this. All your arguments literally boil down to the idea that women should submit to men. I agree that neither role is more important, but you're assigning roles based on gender. That just doesn't work. To make use of your analogy here I am, relationship-wise, a CO. Yet...I'm a man. Not only that, but I'm heterosexual! I'm not a statistical anomaly either, there are scads of straight submissive men out there. The whole relationship dynamic that we live in doesn't exist in your little theory.

Leatherist -> RE: Submission. East Vs West (1/10/2008 8:59:30 AM)
The op draws a great many "logical conclusions", based purely on his personal assumptions. Do you know what they say about the word "assume"? Makes an "ASS of U and ME"

BruisedHick -> RE: Submission. East Vs West (1/10/2008 9:41:27 AM)
Here's his scientific reasoning: In a non peer-reviewed, unpublished, undocumented and mostly generalised observation of both hemispheres, he has concluded that all women need to submit, regardless of whether they show it or not. The most simple proof is that some people are allergic to peanuts. What is so hard to understand about this?????????????? Yours, benji

AquaticSub -> RE: Submission. East Vs West (1/10/2008 9:48:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Shadowkeeper quote: ORIGINAL: hardbodysub quote: The key is to give the women the choice to submit in the manner they so choose, according to thier compatibility with the man they choose to submit to. Interesting conclusion. They can submit any way they want to, but they must submit, and to a man. The choice you allow them isn't much of a choice, is it? It is not a MUST. It is a NEED, built-in biological and psychological need. The male needs to dominate his female and his female needs to submit to him. I really like this quote that AquaticSub has as a signature “Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different." - My Beloved (AKA Valyraen)” Both roles are integral. However, both roles, but this post is specially about females, need to be allowed to flourish without force from cultural or social rules. Please don't misuse that quote. 1. You aren't a woman. If you think know what is going on inside most women's heads you are deluding yourself. 2. No. Most women do NOT have a biological need to submit. How about you do the smart thing and actually listen to the people who are women who are telling you how women really work? Or would that threaten your precious worldview too much?

thetammyjo -> RE: Submission. East Vs West (1/10/2008 9:52:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Shadowkeeper quote: ORIGINAL: thetammyjo quote: ORIGINAL: Shadowkeeper quote: ORIGINAL: hardbodysub quote: The key is to give the women the choice to submit in the manner they so choose, according to thier compatibility with the man they choose to submit to. Interesting conclusion. They can submit any way they want to, but they must submit, and to a man. The choice you allow them isn't much of a choice, is it? It is not a MUST. It is a NEED, built-in biological and psychological need. The male needs to dominate his female and his female needs to submit to him. I really like this quote that AquaticSub has as a signature “Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different." - My Beloved (AKA Valyraen)” Both roles are integral. However, both roles, but this post is specially about females, need to be allowed to flourish without force from cultural or social rules. If it is a need why would there be people who do not have said need? If it's biology shouldn't it work for everyone in that biological group? I think you are attempting to make human being less complex than we really are. That's a very common thing to do. We all need to eat do we not? Some of us are allergic to peanuts though, others are vegetarian, some hate spaghetti, others love burgers. Point is, in our complexity we are simple and in our simplicity we are complex. I am not trying to simplify human beings. I am speaking of what I personally deem the common ground of most, not all. Then there isn't a need for women to submit. There might be a need for people to be social -- though frankly there have been people throughout history who once they are old enough become hermits or live lives away from others. One might argue that even those people rarely do make contact with others for goods or services they can't make on their own. So is there a need to be social? Maybe. That does not dictate how that plays out.

ravennfyre -> RE: Submission. East Vs West (1/10/2008 10:15:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Shadowkeeper quote: ORIGINAL: hardbodysub quote: The key is to give the women the choice to submit in the manner they so choose, according to thier compatibility with the man they choose to submit to. Interesting conclusion. They can submit any way they want to, but they must submit, and to a man. The choice you allow them isn't much of a choice, is it? It is not a MUST. It is a NEED, built-in biological and psychological need. The male needs to dominate his female and his female needs to submit to him. I really like this quote that AquaticSub has as a signature “Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different." - My Beloved (AKA Valyraen)” Both roles are integral. However, both roles, but this post is specially about females, need to be allowed to flourish without force from cultural or social rules. I don't "NEED" to submit. I CHOOSE to submit. Big difference here, buster.

Tantriqu -> RE: Submission. East Vs West (1/10/2008 3:52:10 PM)
quote: "An "Internet troll" or "Forum Troll" or "Message Board Troll" is a person who posts outrageous message to bait people to answer. Forum Troll delights in sowing discord on the forums. A troll is someone who inspires flaming rhetoric, someone who is purposely provoking and pulling people into flaming discussion. Flaming discussions usually end with name calling and a flame war. He is divisive and argumentative with need-to-be-right attitude, "searching for the truth", flaming discussion, and sometimes insulting people or provoking people to insult him. Troll is usually an expert in reusing the same words of its opponents and in turning it against them. He (and in 90% of cases it is he) tries to start arguments and upset people. Negative emotions stirred up by trolls leak over into other discussions. Trolls create a paranoid environment, such that a casual criticism by a new arrival can elicit a ferocious and inappropriate backlash. When trolls are ignored they step up their attacks, desperately seeking the attention they crave. Their messages become more and more foul, and they post ever more of them. Alternatively, they may protest that their right to free speech is being curtailed." Trolling is a form of harassment that can take over a discussion. Well meaning defenders can create chaos by responding to trolls. The best response is to ignore it, or to report a message or profile to a site moderator who usually deletes troll messages or blocks trolls." Let's not waste our time here on a little troll: let's we billy goats gruff butt him into the river, and triptrap triptrap over the bridge to volunteer for a women's shelter, or women's literacy, or help men cope with anger workshop, or just buy another strapon :-) Boo yah!

juliaoceania -> RE: Submission. East Vs West (1/10/2008 4:07:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Shadowkeeper Apparently I am a young inexperienced and immature idiot. Yet it seems none of the post replies had any actual intellect behind them. WOW impressive, older and more experienced Dominants and submissives. I grew up in the Middle East, traveled to a few places in Europe and lived in North America half my life. During that time, I observed, and dated women and girls of various ages and backgrounds. But especially the most exploring I did was during my 16th and 19th years. I am not going to elaborate on my personal experiences because this post was not intended to inflame, brag or insult anyone. This post’s purpose was to have an intelligent conversation. But it seems I misplaced my post in a high school forum on myspace.com or perhaps it’s facebook. Here is the flaw in your thinking.... you have generalized all women in all cultures as being naturally submissive to men, when any sort of look into how cultures operate will show you that women are far more empowered than one would think them to be. There are cultures that celebrate the "submissive" female, but all one has to do is look at the structure within even these cultures to see that women are not "naturally submissive". Even in cultures in the ME women have power over each other, and they use this power as a pecking order. I remember one of my professors spoke to some rich girls in a Saudi all woman's college about the stringent rules regarding how they dress... and their response was to laugh at men looking at them. You see, Saudi women will tell you men are dogs undeserving of a glimpse of the female visage, and only one's husband should get the honor of gazing at their beautiful clothing and face... and these women wore gorgeous clothing to compete with each other. Women are also known to be the ones that enforce modesty garments in Saudi society... it is the WOMEN who will beat the crap out of other WOMEN if one dares to dress immodestly. I think that one has to look at how people actually interact before one can classify them as submissive or dominant. Look at Bible stories for example, some of those Old Testament women really wore the pants, and the same has been true no matter what the culture or the time... some women are just more bossy and controlling than other women... same with men... some men are just more bossy and controlling than other men. So you see, your thinking is off because you generalize one gender as being "naturally" submissive, when anthropology has shown repeatedly and in many ways that this just isn't so.

CelticPrince -> RE: Submission. East Vs West (1/10/2008 5:23:54 PM)
Shadow, chuckles, now do one on the East coast vs West Coast, als a pretty big difference. CP

DominaSmartass -> RE: Submission. East Vs West (1/10/2008 7:36:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Shadowkeeper By the age of 19 it was all clear to me. Women in general are submissive, yes. Regardless if a woman is a seven eleven cashier or the president of the USA. Women have the ability to lead if they need to on many fronts. However when it comes to a relationship, no matter how powerful a woman is, she needs a man who would allow her to feel her fragility as a woman. [/font][/size] Wow, you must have been really something to have it all figure out at age 19. I'm not usually this abrasive, but tonight it's that time of the month, and considering we are the weaker sex I can't help but give in to my impulse to tell you to go fuck yourself. I guess you have degrees in fields like history, sociology, cultural anthropology, women's studies, asian studies, american studies and human sexuality with sources to back you up here? Oh...no? Just your opinion? And don't even get me started on the idea of "east" vs. "west" as completely incoherent categories for comparison anyway considering you've just grouped every person in the world into a set of binaries that are meaningless except as stereotypes. It's America vs. Ching-Chong-China everybody! Of course we're better cause our women are free to express their inner desires to be owned by men as well as to pretend those desires don't exist.

msub4Domme -> RE: Submission. East Vs West (1/10/2008 7:54:33 PM)
Paraphrasing a quote a few posts back -- referring to the "nned" for a woman to submit to a man. Well, lets. see. From my knowledge of history i do not think that Catherine The Great was any more "submissive" than Ivan the Terrible. And we have Queen Victoria and Her consort Prince Albert (he of the piercing). And we have women warriors -- the Amazons who fought with the Trojans against the Greeks (not exactly submissive sisters) and those special, very secretive Chinese ladies who are hired as body guards who are quite adept at all sorts of behaviors, some rather brutal to aggressors. In recent times, i would have liked to have seen Willy Clinton's butt after Hillary found out about Monica!

AtlantisKing111 -> RE: Submission. East Vs West (1/10/2008 9:18:21 PM)
A very insightful posting and one which I agree with.

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