RE: Submission. East Vs West

RE: Submission. East Vs West (Full Version)

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lablancsecret -> RE: Submission. East Vs West (1/14/2008 12:23:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty quote: ORIGINAL: thetammyjo I'm a big supporter of young people but to think that you had it figured out in only three years by age 19 is just laughable. Save your laughter for when he turns 21 and realizes that now he has it all figured out. There is nothing like the confidence of youth. Hell, I am thirty-mumble muble, and the only thing I know for sure about all women is there ain't no two alike. Taggard What about identical twins? Opening up a whole new can of worms, -E

toservez -> RE: Submission. East Vs West (1/14/2008 12:27:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Feric Having lived in the Orient, I can tell you quite honestly that while Westerners assume that there is a tradition for women to be submissive, the truth is quite the opposite. Eastern women couch their true nature beneath a cloak of docility while in actuality controlling events with almost Machiavellian complexity. Businesswomen from Bangkok to Osaka are more ruthless than their male counterparts, while exacting a heavy toll from those who underestimate them, leaving them penniless and bewildered before they realize the deal has even arrived. Between the sheets, the Oriental woman is a study in complexities. Japanese women, for example, will often withhold from an overt actions, at least in the beginning. In this fashion, if they change their mind they can claim they were forced. Once on the go, they are aggressive, and their appetites are rapacious. Oriental women are raised with a high degree of awareness regarding sexuality. While many cultures have an innate shyness about sex, such matters are considered part of life in the Orient, and much of the fencing around about sexual matters that are so prevalent in Western cultures are considered superfluous in Eastern ones. For the Asian woman, this means that direct action can be taken with few drawbacks. If they spot someone who catches their eye, however, watch out! They will pursue their quarry with a pace and plan of attack that would stagger their Western counterparts. So, no, submission is not natural in the East, despite what you may have heard! To quote and respond to this specifically, as an Asian who was born in an Asian country and even when moved here raised inside the house in Eastern culture there is truth and fiction in this. Asian culture has specific outward behavior rules that have strong D/s aspects in them but this does not make the women all submissive and men all dominant. We are regular people just like anyone else. We do not hide our true selves by being docile in public it is just the way our culture does things and we women have no problem in that. To say we hide our true selves is insulting the culture and us females in it as it infers we are faking. It is just different then Western culture and people who live or study our culture always make the huge mistake of trying to filter it through their own culture and then make conclusions on it. Asians are the same as everyone else. Put them in a bad relationship and they will be bad and do bad things including emotional and sexual blackmail. The roles are far more strict then Western roles and they in fact do include some D/s aspects but the problem with most westerners in the power exchange life is they take the term submissive as a literal translation from this life we live and not life in general. Most of these aspects are not about power but of accepting traditional roles and duties for which the men have just as much to do and probably even more stress to do them. To say Asian women are more ruthless in business is just another whopping stereotype. Just the same view as women executives in Western world are often looked on as being bitches. In terms of the OP topic, I do not buy men are naturally dominant over women but do buy men have many more dominant traits then women and traditional roles often make these traits stand out more. The difference to me though it is not males gender over the female gender but just certain traits or stereotyping of actions within a relationship that are called “submissive”. This is what to me separates the Eastern and Western cultures. In the East there is no or little judging of actions between genders within a relationship as right or wrong or dominant or submissive but just the way it is, which is also very much part of our spirituality. In the West like most things a lot of judging right or wrong and dominant or submissive that in my eyes clouds up a lot of things that in the end are just futile.

Justme696 -> RE: Submission. East Vs West (1/14/2008 1:39:31 PM)
quote: In terms of the OP topic, I do not buy men are naturally dominant over women but do buy men have many more dominant traits then women and traditional roles often make these traits stand out more. The difference to me though it is not males gender over the female gender but just certain traits or stereotyping of actions within a relationship that are called “submissive”. I wanted to post this too, but i thought it was decent to read all posts before...and yes..in the last post i found my opinion. Females themselfs can decide what to do, but you often see that they make a decision, but wait for approval/second opinion, of their male partner. Guess that is how people are raised. It gets less though with the new generations Even though the OP gets his ass kicked a lott, he gaves us a nice interesting topic to talk. ANd he doesn't give up easily...that i like .

orfunboi -> RE: Submission. East Vs West (1/18/2008 2:51:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rover quote: ORIGINAL: Shadowkeeper\ It baffles me however, how some people take some of my words at face value. I am equally baffled as to why anyone would take anything you said at face value. John [sm=banana.gif][sm=banana.gif]

orfunboi -> RE: Submission. East Vs West (1/18/2008 3:08:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Shadowkeeper quote: ORIGINAL: msub4Domme Paraphrasing a quote a few posts back -- referring to the "nned" for a woman to submit to a man. Well, lets. see. From my knowledge of history i do not think that Catherine The Great was any more "submissive" than Ivan the Terrible. And we have Queen Victoria and Her consort Prince Albert (he of the piercing). And we have women warriors -- the Amazons who fought with the Trojans against the Greeks (not exactly submissive sisters) and those special, very secretive Chinese ladies who are hired as body guards who are quite adept at all sorts of behaviors, some rather brutal to aggressors. In recent times, i would have liked to have seen Willy Clinton's butt after Hillary found out about Monica! I never said anything about women lacking the ability to be leaders. What I said is that, even a strong female leader, in her personal life, needs a stronger male figure in her life. Maybe you would not be having such a hard time, if you would quit saying really stupid things like this.

orfunboi -> RE: Submission. East Vs West (1/18/2008 3:10:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub quote: ORIGINAL: Shadowkeeper quote: ORIGINAL: msub4Domme Paraphrasing a quote a few posts back -- referring to the "nned" for a woman to submit to a man. Well, lets. see. From my knowledge of history i do not think that Catherine The Great was any more "submissive" than Ivan the Terrible. And we have Queen Victoria and Her consort Prince Albert (he of the piercing). And we have women warriors -- the Amazons who fought with the Trojans against the Greeks (not exactly submissive sisters) and those special, very secretive Chinese ladies who are hired as body guards who are quite adept at all sorts of behaviors, some rather brutal to aggressors. In recent times, i would have liked to have seen Willy Clinton's butt after Hillary found out about Monica! I never said anything about women lacking the ability to be leaders. What I said is that, even a strong female leader, in her personal life, needs a stronger male figure in her life. So what about lesbians? They don't have gays in the middle east......

Justme696 -> RE: Submission. East Vs West (1/18/2008 5:09:58 AM)
They have them propably, but they are hunted down.

AquaticSub -> RE: Submission. East Vs West (1/18/2008 5:37:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: orfunboi quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub So what about lesbians? They don't have gays in the middle east...... If I was in the middle east, I probably wouldn't come out either all things considered. But I still want to know how the OP allows for women who simply don't need or desire men.

OrrisKitten -> RE: Submission. East Vs West (1/18/2008 8:45:24 AM)
So much of me is fighting against the main post that was put up... Women in the "west" being independent is a fairly new trend. In the past 30 years so much has changed and it is good that the OP narrowed down a time to being this current. Everything changes so fast. But regardless, you cannot look at the now without looking at what got us here. To look at things in a slightly different way, I don't personally believe that my submission is something that is biologically needed. It is something I desire, enjoy and have fun with, but I don't think it is biologically influenced. If it were biological then I would have been absolutely miserable in my vanilla relationships from the past. I did end those relationships, but they also lasted up to 2 years without any misery (not my fault some guys turn into assholes. Nor do I believe that all men turn into assholes.) In my relationships, both past and present, I have never been owned. Never. Nor, do I have any desire to be owned so I feel like although I fit into your little category, I am an oddity for not wanting to be owned and molded by a man. I influence my Dom as much as he influences me, this is normal in a relationship and something sociologists/psychologists/anthropologists qualify as a factor in determining what a "romantic relationship" is. I don't always agree with social scientists, but in this I do. You spend enough time with someone and make a connection with them, you are bound to rub off on them in some way. This is by no means a one way street. I have been changed, but so have the men and women I've been with. As to the direct and indirect need... I would say that it is believed by most people I have spoken to that men need the more direct kind of influence and women need and respond more to the subtle. It has become more instinctual for the women I know personally to rebel when given a direct order by a man, which kind of negates what you were suggesting, OP, about the submission/dominant methods of nurturing someone. I know I have become better being with my Dom, but I know he has also become better in being with me, so really, what creates the difference between us? I could possibly discuss the "East" vs. "west" thing, but don't know if I could put things better than any other people who have spoken to it here. My main curiosity is in the defining of a single culture where it has become clear a woman does not NEED a strong man to back her. This is damn clear in the number of single mothers raising successful children on their own, the number of females in positions of power there and and the number of women initiatives to create change without the absolute need of men. I know I work with a group where women have power and lead with the male figures in the group equal to them. So, when does our ship start sinking? The leaders in the group are absolutely equal, share the responsibility and make choices together. Equality has the possibility of happening. It will just take a long time and less close-mindedness towards the concept of equality. Also curious, what about Dommes? Are they freaks of nature? Do they not count as women? What about switches? Impossible to talk about MOST women without taking into account ALL women, buddy. Just doesn't add up.

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