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A question on consent - 1/11/2008 12:57:18 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		In reading some threads today, I noticed a particular trend that has caused some problems for a few out there, and I thought it might be interesting to discuss.  There seems to be common theme it what is triggering the problem.  It's something I'm calling 'they know, but they don't want to know'.  In other words, these are cases where a third person is getting involved with one of two primary partners where the situation is that consent is being given to explore BDSM, but the non-playing partner wants to remain ignorant. 


Now, I'm not saying that I happen to think this is an optimal situation.  In fact, in the threads I've noticed this in today, I open My own comments with the opinion that I think it's foolish for a person to do it blindly.  It opens the door to a lot of complications and drama that I would prefer not to have in My life whatsoever.  However, like with most other things, people will do what they will do, and My particular advise on the subject really doesn't mean much.


What it did make Me think of is this:  If a person is ignorant (pls see definition of the word as lack of education/knowledge) of what their partner is doing, can they really give consent?  If they have no idea of what's going on, how can they truly agree that it is ok for their partner to go out and engage in the activity?


For example, there are two people in a relationship.  One person wants to go out and explore BDSM.  The other has no idea of what that is.  After whatever discussion ensues, the partner gives consent to the other, but doesn't want to know anything about it.


Is that really giving consent?


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RE: A question on consent - 1/11/2008 1:03:55 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline 		It's not the books fault if a person won't pick it up and read it. Consent is simply being given the opportunity to decline, so yes, in that scenario, I would consider consent has been given.

Celeste

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"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


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RE: A question on consent - 1/11/2008 1:07:09 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline
quote:

For example, there are two people in a relationship. One person wants to go out and explore BDSM. The other has no idea of what that is. After whatever discussion ensues, the partner gives consent to the other, but doesn't want to know anything about it.


Is that really giving consent?


Absolutely.  If the partner consents without doing his homework, shame on him.

It may be foolish consent, it very likely is not informed consent, but it is still consent.


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RE: A question on consent - 1/11/2008 1:07:45 PM   
darchChylde


Posts: 5279
Joined: 9/28/2006
From: Warm Springs, GA but i live in San Francisco.
Status: offline 		i have to wonder how many times this consent is given just to make their partner happy and with the hope that their partner can read their mind and not really go through with it... sort of like any occasion a woman says "fine", seldom do that actually mean it

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RE: A question on consent - 1/11/2008 1:10:25 PM   
cautiousiasub


Posts: 199
Joined: 10/17/2005
Status: offline 		I have to agree with Celeste here. I would consider consent as being given.

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RE: A question on consent - 1/11/2008 1:15:23 PM   
Shawn1066


Posts: 987
Joined: 10/7/2007
Status: offline 		Just because a person consents to something doesn't mean the other party has free reign to do anything that they want.  There's a great deal of personal responsibility involved.  If a person, with obviously no experience, consents to something beyond their level...then the other party should keep their eyes open.  Post parties are supposed to be responsible.  So, I don't think anybody should hide behind, "Well, they consented to it" when bad things happen.

"Hypothetical Example: If I agreed to be flogged until I was bruised and bleeding the day I met my Owner.  She would have known that I was waaaay out of my level at the time and she wouldn't have done it just because I consented to it.  Had she done so, it would have been just as much her fault as mine.  Granted, it'd be my fault a great deal more...we'd both be at fault."

It's very hard to just place blame on one person.

Just my two cents.  It's also important to note that there are a lot of incidents that are almost impossible to avoid

< Message edited by Shawn1066 -- 1/11/2008 1:16:05 PM >

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RE: A question on consent - 1/11/2008 1:26:35 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

For example, there are two people in a relationship. One person wants to go out and explore BDSM. The other has no idea of what that is. After whatever discussion ensues, the partner gives consent to the other, but doesn't want to know anything about it.


Is that really giving consent?


Yes, they had an opportunity to learn more about it, decided it wasn't necessary, and offered their consent. It is no different than someone signing a contract without reading it... you had the opportunity to read it, didn't bother to, how can you complain when bad things happen as a result of your John Hancock?


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RE: A question on consent - 1/11/2008 1:33:26 PM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

Is that really giving consent?


Yes.


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RE: A question on consent - 1/11/2008 1:43:53 PM   
CuriousLord


Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

If a person is ignorant (pls see definition of the word as lack of education/knowledge) of what their partner is doing, can they really give consent? [..]

Is that really giving consent?


I wonder this all the time myself. But it doesn't just happen in BDSM. When you sign contracts with businesses, vote for elected officials, agree to certain policies in anything from entering a store with video cameras to when you buy an electronic device or software program.. there's so many things people consent to without fully understanding them. Heck, who in the hospital really understands the range of reasoning and consquences of what the doctor is going to do beyond a vague skimming in lay terms?

The question's really a great one, because it leaves us to consider how any of us can really knowingly consent to anything. So far, my working answer's been that informed consent necessitates having what most humans would consider to be the important points within the human knowledge pool. This said, the level of informed consent varies with the knowledge pool.

For instance, you have a right to know that letting a bug-killing spray on your hands will likely poisen you, so there's a label on the can. We know about that. However, what you may not know is that some food dye in a common product may cause you to be 5000% more likely for a heart attack, but it's such a minor part in some food products and affects only some people with a certain common gene that the connection isn't yet established. You could sue for the bug spray, but not for the food. (Well, successfully, anyhow.)

So it seems to me that consent, proper, implies informed consent; then informed consent implies being enlightened as to what is known by parties involved or foreseeably by parties involved.

In this post, we look at the question as to if a partner is able to consent to another's activity outside of their individual dynamic without being aware of the particulars of consent of them. This strikes me as begging two questions:
-Is it consent?
-Is consent meaningful or/and appropriate in this situation?

As to the question if it's consent, the population outside the BDSM world will likely consider it so, because the person knows as much as their general knowledge pool. Someone with an understanding of BDSM will likely see it as more of a grey area, as they're vaguely informed though not knowledgable on the details.. perhaps this is how doctors look at a patient's consent to most things?

Consent, in the general meaning, is often an important tool and social construct. Though does it apply to informed consent? That's a question open to opinion, I suppose; almost moot in practice, I feel.

(in reply to LadyPact)
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RE: A question on consent - 1/11/2008 1:46:59 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

For example, there are two people in a relationship.  One person wants to go out and explore BDSM.  The other has no idea of what that is.  After whatever discussion ensues, the partner gives consent to the other, but doesn't want to know anything about it.


Is that really giving consent?


I believe there is such a thing as "consensual ignorance", and that a great many people are consensually ignorant about a great many things.
 
John

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Sri da Avabhas

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RE: A question on consent - 1/11/2008 1:47:19 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		About 15 years ago, my Master sat down with his wife and explained to her his need to explore this side of himself and no longer stifle it.  He explained D/s to her and offered her the opportunity to submit to him in such a way.  She opted not to - she would not be true to herself if she tried to be something for him that she is not.  He told her he would go explore it safely outside of the marriage then.  She said she understood, but did not want to be a part of it.  She would rather not know than know.

When I first met my Master, he told me it was his intention to own more than one slave.  I agreed to it, but I also learned early on that I still had struggles with it, due to my insecurities.  I knew I was better off not knowing of his activities with others, because I would obsess on them, thus diverting focus on him and on learning to be the best slave I could be.  So often other girls would insist on talking to me, to be sure I was OK with it, and the few times he allowed that to happen, it caused me more distress than anything.  I viewed it as selfish on the other girl's part, and in their attempts to be considerate of me, they were actually being quite inconsiderate of my true needs.

Now I handle it just fine and I'm happy to talk to anyone.  His wife, however, prefers to live her life with him, unencumbered by the distractions of his other activities.  She doesn't want to have to deal with it, so he will not put her in the position to do so.

So yes, she consents, because she knows it happens and has not asked him to stop, and has not left.  She agreed to remain in their marriage on its new terms, so long as it does not interfere with her world.  Were I to show up at her door and introduce myself as his slave, it would be highly unfair, forcing her to deal with something she does not want in her life.

And how do I trust he is being truthful in that explanation?  Because I have different views on "cheating" than most, and whether or not he chose to tell her of his D/s and BDSM activities was not a concern to me back then. He could have said she didn't know, and it likely would not have made a difference at that time.

One does not need to know and be involved in every detail in order to consent to it.  I think sometimes we insist on involving someone who doesnt want to be involved, just to make ourselves feel good.  I no longer see the world as so black and white.  One can consent to such behavior and still ask to not know of it, until he/she is ready to handle it.  One can also ask to not have to deal with something, either.  This leads to another question - - is involving someone in something - even if that something is simply knowledge - without their consent fair??

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RE: A question on consent - 1/11/2008 1:48:38 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		Oops, double posted by accident.

< Message edited by ownedgirlie -- 1/11/2008 1:49:02 PM >

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RE: A question on consent - 1/11/2008 1:56:56 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

Oops, double posted by accident.


It was better the second time (jk).
 
John

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RE: A question on consent - 1/11/2008 2:02:08 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		 

Bah.  And here I thought you were nice. 

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RE: A question on consent - 1/11/2008 2:05:10 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover


I believe there is such a thing as "consensual ignorance", and that a great many people are consensually ignorant about a great many things.
 
John


I very much agree with this.  I posted a thread in Off Topics awhile back about principles and ethics, and how people in general profess certain views but tend to compromise them.  Example:  You can be against animal cruelty, but do you buy Gilette products?   Without knowing what goes on behind the products and food we buy, yet still buying them, we are "ignorantly" consenting to the activity.

And I respect that "ignorant" is not being used deragatorily (sp?) here.

Not to veer the thread off topic, but I thought you made a great point here. 

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RE: A question on consent - 1/11/2008 2:06:35 PM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline 		Ill informed consent is fine-provided one has the option of withdrawing it at any given time.

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RE: A question on consent - 1/11/2008 2:21:19 PM   
meticulousgirl


Posts: 969
Joined: 2/20/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: darchChylde

i have to wonder how many times this consent is given just to make their partner happy.


You hit the nail on the head right there.....

To many times we aren't ok with whatever but feel like if we say no then we're going to loose the Dom that we have grown to respect, trust, and sometimes even love among the many other things that we feel.

i know there are plenty of things that i've said yes to, that i'm scared to death of, plenty of things that i've let go way past my limits and then later have to find a way to get past any issues i've had from it alone because the fear of well you didn't safe word and you didn't tell me it wasn't ok would come up. 

It's all in the mindset, it's all in the communication (or lack thereof) between the two people involved.  So, to answer your question:  it does happen, and darchChylde got right to the point with his statement.

~meticulous~

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RE: A question on consent - 1/11/2008 2:25:58 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meticulousgirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: darchChylde

i have to wonder how many times this consent is given just to make their partner happy.


You hit the nail on the head right there.....

To many times we aren't ok with whatever but feel like if we say no then we're going to loose the Dom that we have grown to respect, trust, and sometimes even love among the many other things that we feel.

i know there are plenty of things that i've said yes to, that i'm scared to death of, plenty of things that i've let go way past my limits and then later have to find a way to get past any issues i've had from it alone because the fear of well you didn't safe word and you didn't tell me it wasn't ok would come up. 

It's all in the mindset, it's all in the communication (or lack thereof) between the two people involved.  So, to answer your question:  it does happen, and darchChylde got right to the point with his statement.

~meticulous~



Does this explain why men allow their women to watch "Fried Green Tomatos" for the umpteenth time?
 
On a serious note, everyone agrees to things in order to make their partner happy.  Even the Domliest of Doms does so on occasion.  If we don't have happy partners, eventually we don't have a partner.
 
John

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"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

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RE: A question on consent - 1/11/2008 2:30:56 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meticulousgirl


You hit the nail on the head right there.....

To many times we aren't ok with whatever but feel like if we say no then we're going to loose the Dom that we have grown to respect, trust, and sometimes even love among the many other things that we feel.

i know there are plenty of things that i've said yes to, that i'm scared to death of, plenty of things that i've let go way past my limits and then later have to find a way to get past any issues i've had from it alone because the fear of well you didn't safe word and you didn't tell me it wasn't ok would come up. 

It's all in the mindset, it's all in the communication (or lack thereof) between the two people involved.  So, to answer your question:  it does happen, and darchChylde got right to the point with his statement.

~meticulous~


We all have to pick and choose which consequences we're willing to pay. Saying yes because you're not willing to pay the possible consequence of saying no is still consent.

Celeste



_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


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RE: A question on consent - 1/11/2008 2:31:53 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover


Does this explain why men allow their women to watch "Fried Green Tomatos" for the umpteenth time?
 
On a serious note, everyone agrees to things in order to make their partner happy.  Even the Domliest of Doms does so on occasion.  If we don't have happy partners, eventually we don't have a partner.
 
John


LOL It's funny you use that as an example, because just the other day Mr. Wonderful said he will NEVER watch Fried Green Tomatoes again!  :)

And yeah, I do all sorts of things I would not normally want to do, to make him happy.  It makes our relationship richer for us.  He probably won't admit it, but he does does stuff he would prefer not to, just for my benefit, too.

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