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RE: Here's A Story..... - 1/12/2008 6:53:29 AM   
MistressOfGa


Posts: 2929
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

quote:

So he starts to manipulate the friendship by using inside knowledge of WIITWD on this woman. She questions every now and then as to his submissiveness but thinks better of it, since he seems so strong and takes the initiative when it comes to business dealings.


She questions this to herself. She doesn't question him.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressOfGa

[That's just it, he didn't let his submissive side out around her. He hid it from her intentionally.


No he didn't.  At least not according to what I make of your story.  You wrote:

quote:


So he starts to manipulate the friendship by using inside knowledge of WIITWD on this woman. She questions every now and then as to his submissiveness but thinks better of it, since he seems so strong and takes the initiative when it comes to business dealings.


Since she becomes attracted to him, I can only assume you mean he started acting submissive around her.  What else would have attracted her to him? 

This is my point exactly. This is where her confusion comes into play, why on earth would she feel this attraction to a dominant male, when she has never felt that way about any other dominant male before?

If you mean he hid the fact that he self-identifies as submissive, how on earth could she be mad at him? 

Because he hid it to manipulate the relationship. He  used his inside knowledge of wiitwd to draw her interest in him. But then again, according to your premise, he may not have done that.

One really can't tell for sure if someone self-identifies as dom, sub, or vanilla, no matter how they act in the real world.  Your story is a perfect example.  The man seems dominant, but isn't.  The woman, who also seems dominant, could just as easily have been submissive.  She might also not have a clue what BDSM is and the guy in the story would have just scared her away with his kinkyness.

Do you really think that submissive men should flop to the floor whenever they meet a seemingly dominant woman, or risk any future relationship?

lol of course not! The idea that a submissive would act this way around the general public is funny to say the least. But you do have a very good point. He did make the assumption that she is dominant, so why wouldn't she make the same assumption about him? Nice <s>

I really don't get the question, I think...

No, I think that you got it perfectly. There is no right or wrong answer here. I like your take on it though :)

Taggard



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RE: Here's A Story..... - 1/12/2008 6:58:58 AM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fluffyswitch
why he hid it. sorry. still sleepy lol.


Wouldn't it be obvious why he hid it?  I am pretty much out at work, but I don't expect every submissive woman at work to let me know they are submissive.  There is that old chestnut "I am submissive, but I am not your submissive", and I expect that to work both ways.

If someone at work was interested in being mine, I would expect them to act exactly as the guy in the story did.  I would expect them to start the courtship by "shaking their submissive tail feathers" at me and then seeing where that went.  Once it was determined that there was mutual interest, only then would I expect her to come out about any previous submissive experience.

At the work place, keeping your private life private should be the standard.

Again, what do you see as the "appropriate" response in this situation?  Let's say that the woman is a known dominant.  She gives highly publicized workshops at Janus on the weekends.  Let's also say the guy knows this and uses it to his advantage.  How is that, in any way wrong?  She might not be interested in him.  She might use it against him.  He doesn't know her...just what he knows of her.  What are you thinking he "should" have done?

Taggard


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RE: Here's A Story..... - 1/12/2008 7:01:03 AM   
fluffyswitch


Posts: 1108
Joined: 9/29/2007
From: Buffalo
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

quote:

ORIGINAL: fluffyswitch
why he hid it. sorry. still sleepy lol.


Wouldn't it be obvious why he hid it?  I am pretty much out at work, but I don't expect every submissive woman at work to let me know they are submissive.  There is that old chestnut "I am submissive, but I am not your submissive", and I expect that to work both ways.

If someone at work was interested in being mine, I would expect them to act exactly as the guy in the story did.  I would expect them to start the courtship by "shaking their submissive tail feathers" at me and then seeing where that went.  Once it was determined that there was mutual interest, only then would I expect her to come out about any previous submissive experience.

At the work place, keeping your private life private should be the standard.

Again, what do you see as the "appropriate" response in this situation?  Let's say that the woman is a known dominant.  She gives highly publicized workshops at Janus on the weekends.  Let's also say the guy knows this and uses it to his advantage.  How is that, in any way wrong?  She might not be interested in him.  She might use it against him.  He doesn't know her...just what he knows of her.  What are you thinking he "should" have done?

Taggard



i think we are actually in agreement here and it's not coming across.

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Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Here's A Story..... - 1/12/2008 7:02:57 AM   
velvetears


Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline 		It would never get past the "he manipulated me stage" - i don't like manipulation and games so i would be turned off.

But aside from that aspect you said she started to react to his dominance and was for the first time attracted to a dominant acting male.  If i try to put those roles and apply them to myself - i work with a seemingly submissive male who i know is hiding his dominance.  Than i start to become attracted to his submissiveness (not likely), we date and i find out i was right all along and he was actually what i thought he was - a dom.  i might be disappointed i couldn't explore the side of me he aroused with his seeming (acting) submissive behavior. 

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RE: Here's A Story..... - 1/12/2008 7:05:23 AM   
SayaNereida


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quote:

Should he tell her now?

What would your reaction be if something like this had happened to you?

Would you feel relieved to learn that the person you are/were so attracted to is indeed a submissive?

Or would you be so angry that you would end the friendship right then and there?

Of course he should tell, what else was the point in asking her out?

I'd be disappointed at the wasted time, but very pleased he finally felt comfortable enough with me to speak his heart and mind.
Saya


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RE: Here's A Story..... - 1/12/2008 7:06:25 AM   
MistressOfGa


Posts: 2929
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

This is certain not to go in the direction you intended, but once the genie is out of the bottle....


quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressOfGa
He wants to tell her that he is submissive and even hopes that she will accept him and possibly want to begin a D/s relationship with him, but he knows that it may endanger his job, so he keeps it to himself as he continues to act confident and sure of himself, making hard core decisions and really hiding his other half, even in the privacy of their friendship, while off work.

 
Why would anyone presume he is pretneding at work?  Why would anyone assume submissive in a relationship means submissive to everyone?  Why would anyone equate submissive with unconfident, unsure of themself, unable to make decisions, etc?  Honestly, this depiction is prejudiced and stereotyped on so many levels that it probably deserves a thread of its own.
 
Well of course it is! It was intended to be all that and much more. Aren't we all stereotyped outside of our own community? The basic slave in chains while the Mistress is dressed to kill in leather, carrying a whip and dishing it out like the slave has no physical feelings in his body at all.  The poor submissive so unsure as to act, feel, look and behave unless their is a big strong dominant to tell them how to do it.


quote:


So he starts to manipulate the friendship by using inside knowledge of WIITWD on this woman.

 
In the strictest sense, we all manipulate (influence) each other. 
 
Yes, but he is manipulating her using the very thing that she hides from public eye.
 
On the one hand, I don't think it's so cool to bring WIITWD to someone's workplace (it's not just his job in danger, it's hers as well).  And on the other hand I don't see any issue with relating to people about a common interest (though in a venue other than work).
 
quote:
She questions every now and then as to his submissiveness but thinks better of it, since he seems so strong and takes the initiative when it comes to business dealings.

 
Evidently she has bought into the stereotype and prejudice as well.  Doesn't she have any experience meeting folks at munches, etc. in order to know that submissives aren't all weepy wall flowers?
 
Of course she does. And she knows that submissives do not act out the stereotype in public. That is what makes him good at decieving her.

 
quote:
Yet, she finds herself becoming attracted to this rather domly man. She in fact starts to question her own predilection because of her ever growing feelings for a dominant male. There is just something about him that attracts her and it makes her uncomfortable, because she had never been attracted to a dominant male.

 
*If* she (or he for that matter, it's not a gender thing) were switch on some level and found Dominance attractive in some way, sure it *could* be possible on an emotional level to fall for someone's public personality.  Happens to vanilla folks all the time, only to find out that the book isn't much like the cover. 

quote:


So much time has passed and he has used his knowledge of what she is to manipulate his way into her heart.
 
Should he tell her now?

 
Judging by the narrative, although he may not have (to his credit if true) overtly discussed BDSM and their roles while at work, he has dropped more than a few hints.  Seems she even "questioned now and then as to his submissiveness".  My point is, what's to tell?  This doesn't seem like a big secret.

 
quote:


What would your reaction be if something like this had happened to you?

 
I would long ago have pulled him aside and said that I do not appreciate him bringing his, or my, private life to work. 
 
I would have done the same thing. 


quote:

 
Would you feel relieved to learn that the person you are/were so attracted to is indeed a submissive?

 
I dunno, maybe I'm more perceptive but judging by the narrative this wouldn't come as much as a surprise.  But setting that aside, I suppose I might feel pleased/excited more so than relief.

quote:


Or would  you be so angry that you would end the friendship right then and there?


I would not be angry that he showed some discretion and respect for my employment and did not discuss my (or his) personal lifestyle at work. 

John 


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RE: Here's A Story..... - 1/12/2008 7:08:51 AM   
stripmymanhood


Posts: 124
Joined: 9/27/2007
Status: offline 		If that's the way the dominant feels...manipulated...then yes...maybe they wouldn't be comfortable having one serve them who they felt deceived them in the beginning....but men and women have always done this mating dance, whether BDSM was involved or not...i do think that given the backdrop of the workplace though...it might make me more comfortable with such a relationshp, as that person has shown they aren't necessarily going to blab everything at the first opportunity.

Regarding the knowledge of WIITWD...any sub or dominant has that knowledge...could it be that the Dominant may be upset that their radar wasn't working on this sub...and there is concern that they may not be able to read the sub in the course of BDSM play?..unless the dominant it looking for a newbie...knowledge of the subject shouldn't be held against them...after all...they didn't belong to the dominant before all came out.

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

It would never get past the "he manipulated me stage" - i don't like manipulation and games so i would be turned off.

But aside from that aspect you said she started to react to his dominance and was for the first time attracted to a dominant acting male.  If i try to put those roles and apply them to myself - i work with a seemingly submissive male who i know is hiding his dominance.  Than i start to become attracted to his submissiveness (not likely), we date and i find out i was right all along and he was actually what i thought he was - a dom.  i might be disappointed i couldn't explore the side of me he aroused with his seeming (acting) submissive behavior. 

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RE: Here's A Story..... - 1/12/2008 7:18:49 AM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

It would never get past the "he manipulated me stage"


How is showing his submissive side being "manipulative"?

Taggard


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RE: Here's A Story..... - 1/12/2008 7:19:45 AM   
sirguym


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Joined: 8/10/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHathor
bring it up in the context of politics, so how do you think Bill would feel to be the Mr First Lady 


At the risk of diverting the thread I was once involved in politics, and encouraged and enabled a fellow councillor to become Deputy Mayor. She was young, attractive, intelligent, local and married to an unreconstructed male chauvinist who was beating her up wenever he came home drunk from the pub. I felt she'd be wonderful in the role, (and she was), and it would do wonders for her self-confidence, (which it did).

I will forever remember the look on his face when she attended an event in place of the Mayor, because the (married, male) Mayor was indisposed, and this male chauvist was presented with the big bunch of flowers intended for the lady Mayoress! Absolutely priceless!

They split up soon after; and if my actions in their lives played a part, I remain unrepentant.

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RE: Here's A Story..... - 1/12/2008 7:26:02 AM   
velvetears


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Joined: 6/19/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

It would never get past the "he manipulated me stage"


How is showing his submissive side being "manipulative"?

Taggard



That in and of itself would not be, but this is a made up story so i am taking the "he manipulated" at face value - she never really gave that a thorough explanation.

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RE: Here's A Story..... - 1/12/2008 7:28:29 AM   
MsBearlee


Posts: 1032
Joined: 2/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressOfGa

...The man is a submissive, but because of his work he keeps that information to himself and he is extremely private about it. He acts in a manner that is consistent with one who is dominant in the work place so no one will guess that he is submissive. ...so he keeps it to himself as he continues to act confident and sure of himself, making hard core decisions and really hiding his other half, even in the privacy of their friendship, while off work.
 
Time passes. He has developed an attraction for his friend simply because she is dominant. So he starts to manipulate the friendship by using inside knowledge of WIITWD on this woman. She questions every now and then as to his submissiveness but thinks better of it, since he seems so strong and takes the initiative when it comes to business dealings. Yet, she finds herself becoming attracted to this rather domly man. She in fact starts to question her own predilection because of her ever growing feelings for a dominant male. There is just something about him that attracts her and it makes her uncomfortable, because she had never been attracted to a dominant male.

...she agrees to a dinner date. He is a gentleman on this date, opening the doors for her, holding her arm as they are seated, ect..all the while his heart is pounding because he thinks that this is a good night to tell her of his own predilection.
 
...What would your reaction be if something like this had happened to you?
 
Would you feel relieved to learn that the person you are/were so attracted to is indeed a submissive?

Or would  you be so angry that you would end the friendship right then and there?
 
For the Dominants, you can reverse the situation, exchanging the male for the female roles. (If you want to). 
...

(italics are mine)
 
First let me say it is good to see you here more frequently, MoG  …you are always an asset here!
 
I’ve snipped up your post to profile the parts I want to address:
 
First of all, there are a great many people who ARE that private about their proclivities; nobody knows, in fact I would say they hardly know really.  Such people often have only their fantasies, know no one into such behavior; don’t go to munches, don’t even know books exist on the topic.  I’ve met several such people…and they are both overly excited, scared half to death; relieved and yet afraid to believe it could be true that they’d met someone who ‘might understand’.  Can anybody blame them for a) not really knowing how to go forward, and 2) trying to go forward without spilling the beans?
 
Secondly, as far as a man acting in the manner you’ve described; that is exactly the kind of submissive man I am drawn to.  I WANT a man who is both confident and able to make decisions…and who is submissive.  What about an ability to do a job makes this one ‘less submissive’?  Surely a man who is fawning and insecure is not a man demonstrating a characteristic of submissiveness.
 
The most important piece, to me, was the concern that this man was ‘hiding’ himself; keeping secret his submissiveness from a co-worker and friend.  To my mind, this just meant he was not yet sure he really trusted her yet enough to let her know his interest of being submissive to her and wanted to let a D/s relationship unfold very, very slowly.  We are always discussing a submissive is not submissive to everybody, I would be happy with the behavior of this man.
 
I am not clear what ‘…he starts to manipulate the friendship by using inside knowledge of WIITWD on this woman” actually means.  In my mind, it appears that gradually and occasionally he opened up a bit and let her see his potential as a submissive to her.  I agree with Taggard… “sounds like good old fashioned courting”, to me, too.
 
Again, “being so strong and taking the initiative when it comes to business dealings” does not a Dominant make.  And as someone else mentioned, she too was ‘keeping secret’ her interest in D/s; he’d only guessed this and really must have thought regularly “…what if I’m wrong!”  Who can blame a guy for going very slowly under such a situation?
 
As far as their date went…why wouldn’t he act like a gentleman, all the while continuing to show more and more bits and pieces of how interested he is in her…how much he cares.  While taking my arm and holding doors open for me have also been done by men who are Dominant…I would appreciate it from a submissive man, as well.  How else (in this day and age) does one try to be submissive in a vanilla setting?  Lordy…he better not grovel in public!!!
 
Were this to happen to me, I’d be tickled pink to find a bright, capable man THAT interested in the possibility of a D/s relationship…and who was such a gentleman.
 
It seems to me both parties were being discrete…I don’t see any manipulation what-so-ever; I see two people of similar bent becoming more and more attractive to each other.
 
What a lovely story…
 
K…that’s what I think.  LOL
Beverly


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RE: Here's A Story..... - 1/12/2008 7:30:36 AM   
MistressOfGa


Posts: 2929
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I would wonder how he could be so sure of her dominance that he could manipulate her with it. There are many submissive types of both genders that can be very dominant in the work arena. In fact I would say I doubt anyone can guess what another is based upon their work persona.

That being said, I do not know how anyone could be upset because someone did not want to share something that personal with their boss. It could just as easily turn out that she was a submissive too. I think I also have a hard time seeing how anyone can manipulate another with some sort of inside knowledge. Perhaps I am just not imaginative enough?

Me neither lol but remember I was basing this story on something I read on the boards today. In that thread, the sub said that he wasn't sure if he should tell her that he was submissive and that he felt scared to after all this time because he had inside knowledge of wiitwd regarding her. Maybe he knew she held classes at expo shows. I don't know. I can't get into my email to find the original post and I forgot where it was posted. But at the time, I thought it would make a great thread on it's own.
Like I said, there is no right or wrong answers here. But it does have y'all thinking <s>

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RE: Here's A Story..... - 1/12/2008 7:35:03 AM   
lablancsecret


Posts: 73
Joined: 11/27/2006
Status: offline 		I agree 100% with Taggard; so many people put on similar shows around people they work with, or with friends.

Just because someone is sub, doesn't mean that in their public, and perhaps also private, lives they behave as if they were some sort of "weak" person. Hell, half the subs I know can be very pushy and domineering when outside of the "proper" relm of assuming roles. I know I am.

Doms can kind of blend in in situations like this, especially if their job requires them to be pushy, agressive, demanding, or just "in charge".

Neither side is being deceptive, they are simply assuming the roles their jobs require them to have.


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RE: Here's A Story..... - 1/12/2008 7:44:10 AM   
MsElle


Posts: 20
Joined: 4/1/2005
Status: offline 		I find it interesting how people fly to the word 'manipulation' with such anger and defensiveness - Everyone naturally uses what knowledge they have to further their own wants and needs.  This is not wrong - it is human nature and, more simply, common sense.  In this case I think it is perfectly natural for the submissive male to keep those predelictions to himself in the workplace (as many have mentioned, a desire to submit has no necessary effect on effective decision making or confidence and strength of personality) as that is really just not the place for it.

If, on a personal level, he wants to 'test the waters' with a female colleague he suspects is dominant - he takes it outside of the office, then - as we like to call it - 'shakes his submissive tail feathers' at her.  In other words, his submissive desires are displayed in subtle ways with her, to send her signs through his behavior and see if they are responded to.  That, too, is human nature.  Chances are he was sending subtle signals all along, and the attractions that the woman felt towards him are likely the simple combination of intelligence and personality that would make for a 'vanilla' attraction, plus the undercurrent of submission that is present in his interactions with her - whether overt or subconscious. 

At any rate, I don't think that it would be offending in any way if the male 'came clean' with his desires to her, and I wouldn't think that she would have much trouble understanding his need to keep his work persona consistent and separate, nor would I think she would be bothered by the fact that he chooses to expose that side of himself only to those he feels a powerful desire to submit to - I'd rather like that *smile*

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RE: Here's A Story..... - 1/12/2008 8:00:11 AM   
MistressOfGa


Posts: 2929
Status: offline 		~~FR~~
I apologize, the site went down for me and then I couldnt check my email. After checking my email I realized I had left out some very important things to this story. I am not sure as to whether to post them or not now. It would certainly make the story have more sense. I can't tell jokes either! lol In any case, you all seem to be having a good time with this story by itself but if you would like the additional information, please let me know.




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RE: Here's A Story..... - 1/12/2008 8:24:32 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I would love additional info, these are the sorts of situations I used to think about when I was a novice... could I tell just by looking at someone? Were there signals? I started looking for that sort of information in many social situations... and it was very interesting at the time

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RE: Here's A Story..... - 1/12/2008 8:24:35 AM   
slavegirljoy


Posts: 1207
Joined: 11/6/2006
From: North Carolina, USA
Status: offline 		Well, i know this is a made up story and these are fictional characters but, i do take exception with the notion that someone who is submissive (whether male or female) can't also be "confident and sure of himself" and needs to "act" that way at work.  As a lifelong submissive woman, who spent 12 years working shoulder-to-shoulder in the male dominated arena of the U.S. Army Signal Corps, i have always felt confident in myself and my abilities.  Otherwise, i would not have felt comfortable being in the leadership positions that i was put into, where i needed to make "hard core decisions" for myself and the people (men and some women) who i was responsible for.  As i have said before, i am submissive within my intimate relationship and only within that relationship.
 
Other than that, i would just say that people usually do "act" differently at work, where they have a different role and different standard of behavior than when they are on their own time and able to do as they please.  So, it wouldn't surprise me to find out that someone i worked with had another side to their personality that hadn't shown through at work.  In fact, i couldn't tell you whether anyone i have ever worked with was either dominant or submissive, except maybe when their spouse or significant other calls them on the phone.  Also, i don't think you ever really know someone until you spend a lot of time with them in more than one setting and, even then, maybe not entirely.
 
But, i think anytime 2 people can find a satisfying relationship with each other, even if it's by meeting at work and forming a friendship and then seeing each other outside of that environment and finding out what each other is all about, it's a good thing.  It doesn't matter to me that there wasn't 'full disclosure' of each other's 'true identity' before the date.
 
slave joy
Owned servant of Master David

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RE: Here's A Story..... - 1/12/2008 8:26:12 AM   
kc692


Posts: 3701
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressOfGa

quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

I am not sure I get why anyone would be mad.  She never told him she was dominant, he just guessed it and then let his submissive side out around her.  Sounds like good old fashioned courting.

Taggard



That's just it, he didn't let his submissive side out around her. He hid it from her intentionally.
 
Thanks for the response! :)


The only thing I see that kind of doesn't jive with me is"He acts in a manner that is consistent with one who is dominant in the work place so no one will guess that he is submissive. The woman on the other hand is a Dominant, he can tell by her words and actions that she is. He wants to tell her that he is submissive and even hopes that she will accept him and possibly want to begin a D/s relationship with him, but he knows that it may endanger his job, so he keeps it to himself as he continues to act confident and sure of himself, making hard core decisions and really hiding his other half, even in the privacy of their friendship, while off work.
 
Time passes. He has developed an attraction for his friend simply because she is dominant. So he starts to manipulate the friendship by using inside knowledge of WIITWD on this woman. She questions every now and then as to his submissiveness but thinks better of it, since he seems so strong and takes the initiative when it comes to business dealings.
 
My problem with the above statements is this:  I have known (and had) many submissives that act in the above manner naturally.  Just because one is submissive in their personal arena, does not mean they are not comfortable running a board room.  I personally want a strong, self confident submissive, not one that "has to have a dominant" but one that wants me as their dominant, because they crave ME, not my dominance.
 
As far as the situation,even if a work buddy, it would be someone that I felt I liked outside of work, and therefore would have the maturity if I were to make any comment of anything non work related, would keep it between us, so I could see bringing up at least the subject of WIITWD without fear of repercussion at work, and that would be his opening to bring up how he felt about the subject, and therefore Me.

edited to add:  I am now going to read the rest of the responses, and see how everyone else feels, I stopped at the above post and posted, so I have no idea if someone else has already said what I did.

< Message edited by kc692 -- 1/12/2008 8:27:51 AM >

_____________________________

Anyone can overpower; not many can INSPIRE.....

This is only MY opinion. If it's not yours, let's agree in advance to agree to disagree, OR, you can just get the fuck over what I had to say:)

(in reply to MistressOfGa)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Here's A Story..... - 1/12/2008 8:36:52 AM   
CalifChick


Posts: 10717
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: California
Status: offline 		FR ~~

I'm not seeing the problem either, so maybe the additional details would help.

Cali
(can't get the vision of "shaking her submissive tailfeathers" out of her head)


_____________________________

AKA "The Undisputed Goddess of Sarcasm", "Big Bad Cali" and "Yum Bum". Advisor to the Subbie Mafia, founding member of the W.A.C. and the Judgmental Bitches Brigade, member of the Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair-a's and Team Troll

(in reply to kc692)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Here's A Story..... - 1/12/2008 8:37:46 AM   
kc692


Posts: 3701
Joined: 3/24/2005
Status: offline 		I want the additional info, smiles, might make more sense why he was "acting" instead of behaving with his own natural persona. Good thread btw, MoGA!

_____________________________

Anyone can overpower; not many can INSPIRE.....

This is only MY opinion. If it's not yours, let's agree in advance to agree to disagree, OR, you can just get the fuck over what I had to say:)

(in reply to kc692)
Profile   Post #: 40
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