Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: Greenpeace has tracked down the Japanese whaleing fleet.


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Greenpeace has tracked down the Japanese whaleing fleet. Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Greenpeace has tracked down the Japanese whaleing f... - 1/15/2008 10:30:42 PM   
Najakcharmer


Posts: 2121
Joined: 5/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
I have also butchered and prepared many animals; including hogs, deer, chicken, turkey, quail, duck, rabbit, squirrel, frogs (ever been frog gigging?), snakes, racoons, and opossums.  I grew up in the rural South, and this is not an uncommon thing for people here to learn at an early age.


I hunt and butcher also, but snakes are inappropriate to harvest for food.  They occupy the same environmental niche and reproduce as slowly as hawks and eagles.  If you wouldn't shoot a bald eagle, leave the reptiles alone.  Right now I'd suggest laying off the frogs in most areas as well, given the current epidemic level pressures on amphibian populations from chytrid.  There are seriously hard hit populations all over, and they need the recovery time.  Everything else on that list, chow away on, especially the hogs since they're a non-native destructive species.

One expensive, exclusive bird hunting club decided to eliminate rattlesnakes on their preserve.  The result was dismal, since game birds are ground nesters and rattlesnakes are primarily rodent eaters. The overrunning rodent population ate the expensive pheasants and their eggs right up, leaving not many for the hunters.  Financial disaster for the club.  Don't mess with nature; she's a mother.

Another group of farmers decided to dynamite the rattlesnake dens near their fields as they lost a couple head of livestock a year to snake bite.  The result was that their losses went from 2-3 head a year to 200-300 head a year when the population explosion of ground burrowing rodents made a honeycomb of tunnels under their pastures, causing a good many cattle and horses to fall through and break a leg. 

Could throw in a few more stories about hantavirus and people dying because dumbasses killed the snakes that would have protected them, but hopefully you're getting the picture.  If you harvest the top level predators in an ecosystem for food, seriously bad shit happens to that ecosystem.  Those species did not evolve to survive the pressures of predation and cannot sustain a harvest.

The concept of sustainable harvest is key here.  If a wilderness area can be well managed and a sustainable harvest taken by hunters every year, just so many and no more, you have good hunting and species survival for generations to come. If you fuck it up by taking the wrong animals out of the ecosystem, or by taking too many animals, you can really make a mess and impact everything down the chain.

Hunting and meat eating is fine, and sustainable harvest can substantially benefit a species and a ecosystem when managed intelligently.  But if you don't manage the ecosystem as a whole intelligently, there won't be anything left for your grandkids to hunt. Reptiles are *not* sustainable targets due to their slow reproductive rates, and right now amphibians are also a bad choice in most areas until their populations recover (if they recover) from chytrid and other pressures.  The frog situation will vary from area to area, but it's been pretty horrendous in the last few years in a lot of states. 

If you want to breed reptiles in captivity for food, go right ahead, and you'll soon figure out why birds and mammals are farmed but for the most part reptiles are not.  Their growth and reproduction rates are just too slow, so farming them isn't economically feasible.  Harvesting them from the wild isn't ecologically feasible either, for the same reason.  Breeding adults will not be replaced at any kind of reasonable rate when they are taken, and the population will be impacted.  A local habitat can be seriously impacted by the removal of even one or two animals that occupy a keystone niche, if an adult breeding pair cannot be naturally replaced from the population.  Reptiles generally do fall into that category.

I simply don't know enough about whale biology, populations or reproductive rates to determine whether a sustainable harvest is feasible.  If memory serves, most biologists think that it is not feasible, or that not enough is known to determine feasibility. 

< Message edited by Najakcharmer -- 1/15/2008 10:32:41 PM >

(in reply to slaveboyforyou)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Greenpeace has tracked down the Japanese whaleing f... - 1/15/2008 10:40:42 PM   
Najakcharmer


Posts: 2121
Joined: 5/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Muttling
I have also taken wild hogs (but they stink FAR too much to be worth hunting IMO)


Buh?  The ones in Florida are absolutely delicious.  I ate very little red meat other than wild hog when I lived in that state, since I was very actively involved in culling these non-native destructive animals to help protect local nature preserves and I wouldn't let any of the yummy stuff go to waste.  I can't stand supermarket pork, as it's flabby and nasty in comparison.   I'll eat home slaughtered/farm raised pork, but I much prefer wild hog.  The ones here in North Carolina are pretty tasty too. 

Send me all your unwanted wild pork and I'll make it go away painlessly.  I make a Thai style lemongrass, garlic and chile wild boar sausage that is absolutely delicious. 

(in reply to Muttling)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Greenpeace has tracked down the Japanese whaleing f... - 1/15/2008 10:41:28 PM   
slaveboyforyou


Posts: 3607
Joined: 1/6/2005
From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
Status: offline 		Najak, I don't regularly kill snakes.  I have only skinned a rattlesnake once when I was a kid.  It's actually illegal to kill them here for no reason.  You can kill one if you feel threatened by it, but you can't harvest them.  I don't really have any special affinity for snakemeat.  I have been frog gigging a few times, but I haven't done it in many years.  I will have to confess that I love fried frog legs.  I eat them at a local restaurant here all the time along with catfish and crawfish.  I don't know that much about their commercial production.  The same restuarant also serves alligator meat, so I assume there is a sustainable way to harvest them.  I do know that my grandfather used to talk fondly about turtle soup.  I have never had it, and killing alligator snappers is illegal.  From my understanding, that's what they made the soup from.  So I can understand the need to stay away from reptile meat.   

Like I told Muttling, I don't do that much hunting any more.  About all I ever hunt is small game, and I limit that mostly to squirrels and rabbits.  I just have to much of a softspot for coons to shoot 'em .  I just don't have the time for it, and I prefer fishing anyway.  It's more relaxing to me, and you can drink beer while you do it.   

< Message edited by slaveboyforyou -- 1/15/2008 10:43:43 PM >

(in reply to Najakcharmer)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Greenpeace has tracked down the Japanese whaleing f... - 1/15/2008 11:02:14 PM   
Najakcharmer


Posts: 2121
Joined: 5/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

Najak, I don't regularly kill snakes.  I have only skinned a rattlesnake once when I was a kid.  It's actually illegal to kill them here for no reason.  You can kill one if you feel threatened by it, but you can't harvest them.


They are protected in most areas, yes.  As for feeling threatened by a rattlesnake.....um.  I don't understand that at all, since about the only way you can get bitten is if you make the physical move into the animal's strike range.  Granted this can happen without your knowing it or ever seeing the snake, but if you do see the snake, you can walk away.  If you can see the snake to feel threatened by it, you can walk away from the snake.  You don't even have to run.  They are slow movers.  Fast strikers, but remarkably slow movers.

quote:

I will have to confess that I love fried frog legs.  I eat them at a local restaurant here all the time along with catfish and crawfish.  I don't know that much about their commercial production.  The same restuarant also serves alligator meat, so I assume there is a sustainable way to harvest them.  I do know that my grandfather used to talk fondly about turtle soup.  I have never had it, and killing alligator snappers is illegal.  From my understanding, that's what they made the soup from.  So I can understand the need to stay away from reptile meat.


Frog legs are yummy, but I'm not sure anyone is commercially farming them.  I'm not sure there is a sustainable captive farmed source, so I'd avoid it if I didn't know.  I suspect it's not.  They do farm alligators for hides mainly, with meat as a by product, so alligator meat is okay to eat since it is sustainably captive bred.  I don't think it's all that tasty, and I have a personal soft spot for crocodilians, but it's not an ecological disaster to eat it.

It is a serious ecological disaster to eat turtles due to the insanely slow reproductive rate of most species.  This year some additional studies on just how bad it is are being completed.  Expect even stricter laws shortly.  I got an advance look at those studies in progress, and holy crap that's scary data. 

< Message edited by Najakcharmer -- 1/15/2008 11:03:34 PM >

(in reply to slaveboyforyou)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Greenpeace has tracked down the Japanese whaleing f... - 1/15/2008 11:44:52 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer
I simply don't know enough about whale biology, populations or reproductive rates to determine whether a sustainable harvest is feasible.  If memory serves, most biologists think that it is not feasible, or that not enough is known to determine feasibility. 

Last I checked the consensus was the great whales, baleen and toothed, are simply too slow to mature for a commercially viable sustainable harvest . The freshwater cetaceans are far too endangered due to habitat loss to think they'll still be around in 5 years much less ever available for consumption. The smaller cetaceans, dolphins,  porpoises, Beluga etc., include some very common species and at present culling by native peoples around the world and some Japanese villages do not appear to be too detrimental but these are still slow reproducing animals and that makes them very poor choices as a food source.

Fundamentally the cetaceans and other marine mammals are just not good food sources. We'd all be better off making them off limits and getting serious about sustainably harvesting the fish that can be culled from the wild if done wisely. However we're on the brink of losing a whole lot of those species as well. Swordfish looks to be on the rebound but the shark species taken for food look to be in real trouble. The Patagonian Toothfish, Chilean Sea Bass, is in serious trouble and the illegal catch will likely wipe the species out in the next 5 years. Bluefin and bigeye tuna are in serious decline and other species, even the ubiquitous skipjack, are showing signs of decline from overfishing. Wild salmon is in bad trouble but wasn't ever a really viable commercial fishery.

(in reply to Najakcharmer)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Greenpeace has tracked down the Japanese whaleing f... - 1/16/2008 5:33:41 AM   
Muttling


Posts: 1612
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline 		Najak....



I would gladly send you the meat if I could stand to field dress it and put it in the back of my truck.   We don't have razor backs in Tennessee, we have the European Boars which were imported and are an invader species.    They stink like nothing I have smelt before.   I know a number of people who love the meat, but I'm not one of them.    I'll be happy to shoot one for you, but you'll have to do everything after I pull the trigger or let loose the arrow.

On the subject of reptiles, I agree with about 99% of what you have said (especially your comments on frogs.)   The only disagreement I hold is in respect to aligators and caymens.    Those buggers are HIGHLY reproductive and difficult to control.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Greenpeace has tracked down the Japanese whaleing f... - 1/16/2008 10:36:18 AM   
Najakcharmer


Posts: 2121
Joined: 5/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Muttling
I would gladly send you the meat if I could stand to field dress it and put it in the back of my truck.   We don't have razor backs in Tennessee, we have the European Boars which were imported and are an invader species.    They stink like nothing I have smelt before.   I know a number of people who love the meat, but I'm not one of them.    I'll be happy to shoot one for you, but you'll have to do everything after I pull the trigger or let loose the arrow.


That's my department actually.  I'm a lousy shot and an excellent butcher/game meat cook.  You'd be the perfect hunting buddy.  :)

quote:

On the subject of reptiles, I agree with about 99% of what you have said (especially your comments on frogs.)   The only disagreement I hold is in respect to aligators and caymens.    Those buggers are HIGHLY reproductive and difficult to control.


Depends on the locality.  Many species of crocodilians are seriously endangered due to habitat encroachment.  They are however the only reptile species that is really commercially feasible to farm due to their relatively high reproductive rate (for reptiles) and their size.

(in reply to Muttling)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Greenpeace has tracked down the Japanese whaleing f... - 1/16/2008 12:50:50 PM   
Najakcharmer


Posts: 2121
Joined: 5/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Swordfish looks to be on the rebound but the shark species taken for food look to be in real trouble. The Patagonian Toothfish, Chilean Sea Bass, is in serious trouble and the illegal catch will likely wipe the species out in the next 5 years. Bluefin and bigeye tuna are in serious decline and other species, even the ubiquitous skipjack, are showing signs of decline from overfishing. Wild salmon is in bad trouble but wasn't ever a really viable commercial fishery.


*nods*  The issue is not poor wittle fishy-wishies, but sustainable management of habitat and populations so that there can be a continuing harvest.  Humans are doing a truly piss poor job of managing these natural resources, and we will be seeing many extinctions in the next decade. 

Confusing the issue with emotional arguments is probably not a good idea, as those are too easy to dismiss.  Unfortunately one of the best friends that greedy harvesters have is the PETA type folks whose message is so extreme that it can be dismissed out of hand - right along with all the good and solid scientific arguments for not killing any whales right now.  If you really want to save the whales, lay off with the poor wittle fishy-wishy talk and lay on the hard science of population management and the economics of sustainable commercial viability.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Greenpeace has tracked down the Japanese whaleing f... - 1/16/2008 1:07:19 PM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		Interesting discussion.  I never knew how important rattlesnakes are, though it of course makes perfect sense.

I do have to comment on a few things.  Dom Ken why would you think there never was (or isn't) a viable wild salmon industry? 

The fact is that Whales have been harvested for thousands of years, so they clearly can stand some degree of Human harvest.  They can be hunted sustainably.   But not commercially/industrialy. 

I see absolutly no moral difference in killing a whale and a mosquito.  There are very good reasons to ban commercial whaling and I agree with that 100%.  But I also support the rights of People who have cultural ties to whaling to continue to do so.  I was honored to have a Yupik friend of mine bring some Beluga Whale meat (Muktuk) to my Christmas eve dinner this season, and had seconds of it.  Didn't taste paticularly good, but who cares.  The cultural meanings of sharing it was the point.

Interestingly the Japanese of the Northern most Islands are part Innuit (even though they don't like to admit it, lots of Europeons have Innuit ancestry <way back> also, groups like Sami are blended into most of the northern Europeons), and I really do think that they should get permits to take a few whales (several small species a year, larger ones every few years, dependant on the numbers, just like we do with the Eskimo Whaling Commision)  with some limits on technology.  Places where the taking of whales has a cultural/community meaning should be respected.

I thought it was disgusting when Sea Sheppard went and attacked the Natives in Washington state, what was that 15 years ago, and are simply cultural imperialists.  Greenpeace does far better and more important work.

(in reply to Najakcharmer)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Greenpeace has tracked down the Japanese whaleing f... - 1/16/2008 1:44:27 PM   
MsBearlee


Posts: 1032
Joined: 2/15/2006
Status: offline 		Funny, when they tore out the walls of my kitchen for the remodel, we found hundreds and hundreds of snake skins IN the walls.  It was wayyyyyyy cool!  Well, the desiccated one was sad; I wonder why he died…but they don’t stink and they’re quiet room-mates.  I’ve lived here 4 years now and have never seen outside the walls and inside a room.  Sure, I live by a river and have bunches of ‘em in the yard; sort of like black garter snakes…about 18” long.  I have to move ‘em when I mow, but who cares, I have a barn-like structure (actually it did used to be a barn) out back and as Hanta Virus is rampant in Southern Colorado…I’m happy to have the snakes.  While there are rattlers in the area, perhaps they prefer to be away from people…or closer to the rocky places; I’ve never seen one around here.
 
And never a frog…and only 2 lizards: horned toads, actually; but that was up at the cabin.  I'm hoping to build another koi pond here: perhaps 12x15x5' deep.  If I build it, will they come?
 
As far as hunting goes, I don’t have the patience; but I have raised rabbits and chickens and harvested them.  I’d like to do that again.
 
Oh…and the feral boar in California is delicious, too!  We mixed fresh horseradish with home-made applesauce as a side; was awesome!
 
B


_____________________________

A must read for submissives! (click here)

This one, as well!

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Greenpeace has tracked down the Japanese whaleing f... - 1/16/2008 1:45:55 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1


I see absolutly no moral difference in killing a whale and a mosquito. 



That is a classic line. I dig the fact that you possess the inability to decipher morally between the two. Classic just classic.

I suppose since they are both God's creatures there lives are of equal value or relevance...Then what could possibly be the difference between a dung beetle and a human? Who cares about the population, the animal's interaction within it's environment , the spread of disease, how long it lives, how complex of a creature it is, it's intelligence...Why even consider shit such as this?....It might make your head hurt.

Though you don't even try...You are one of my favorite posters.

< Message edited by domiguy -- 1/16/2008 1:48:43 PM >

_____________________________



(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Greenpeace has tracked down the Japanese whaleing f... - 1/16/2008 2:40:27 PM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		Glad you are a fan Domi,  you strike me as one of the least interesting posters.   I notice you ignore most of my post where I clearly point out that factors such as ecological niche and population do matter.  Thats why your posts are so boring, you ignore most of it, and try to simply focus on one small part, and try to tie this as some sort of right wing religous thing.  If it came down to it elimanting mosquitos would be an ecological disaster, probably worse than the loss of whales.  The  complexity of the creature???  The intelligence?  That's some sort of value judgement on your part, have at it, my opinions on this are not based on a a cutsey movie.

(in reply to domiguy)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Greenpeace has tracked down the Japanese whaleing f... - 1/16/2008 3:08:29 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

IThe fact is that Whales have been harvested for thousands of years, so they clearly can stand some degree of Human harvest.  They can be hunted sustainably.   But not commercially/industrialy. 

I see absolutly no moral difference in killing a whale and a mosquito.  There are very good reasons to ban commercial whaling and I agree with that 100%.  But I also support the rights of People who have cultural ties to whaling to continue to do so.  I was honored to have a Yupik friend of mine bring some Beluga Whale meat (Muktuk) to my Christmas eve dinner this season, and had seconds of it.  Didn't taste paticularly good, but who cares.  The cultural meanings of sharing it was the point.

Places where the taking of whales has a cultural/community meaning should be respected.

I thought it was disgusting when Sea Sheppard went and attacked the Natives in Washington state, what was that 15 years ago, and are simply cultural imperialists.  Greenpeace does far better and more important work.


quote:

luckydog1
Glad you are a fan Domi, you strike me as one of the least interesting posters. I notice you ignore most of my post where I clearly point out that factors such as ecological niche and population do matter. Thats why your posts are so boring, you ignore most of it, and try to simply focus on one small part, and try to tie this as some sort of right wing religous thing. If it came down to it elimanting mosquitos would be an ecological disaster, probably worse than the loss of whales. The complexity of the creature??? The intelligence? That's some sort of value judgement on your part, have at it, my opinions on this are not based on a a cutsey movie.


Well I am a fan...What can I say, when I was a kid I would watch Hee-Haw. So much for taste.

Actually when I take someone to task I try and be as honest as possible....

You comment on the fact that they have been hunted...That apparently when small amounts of whales are taken that it doesn't have an adverse effect on the population.

well here we go, for many of the whale species it will take hundreds or even thousands of years with no hunting to even begin to see the populations before they were hunted "commercially or industrialy."

That still doesn't account for the fact that you cannot differentiate between the life of a whale or a misquito....No one was talking about having the mosquito "go extinct." Doesn't look like this is an incredibly realistic proposition or even something worth of consideration at this time.

Hmmmm ....Lets look at a blue whale...How about there being somewhere in the vacinity of 12,000 blue whales still in existence.....There are only estimates that this population could at one time exceeded 250,000 animals or more.

Now take a mosquito....There are only 12,000 mosquitos alive on the Earth.....I help subsidize my income by taking Chicagoans and visitors to the city on mosquito watching expeditions....It is a chance of a lifetime for a person to enjoy the elusive mosquito as it beautifully sets down upon their skin to take a nip of their blood. A moment frozen in time...Never to be forgotten.

Rarely do those who contract the West Nile Virus complain because they realize that though they might endure some pain or even death their blood helped to propagate a species whose numbers have been decimated by the reckless conduct of man.


I agree with you wholeheartedly there is little difference twix the two...If I misconstrued your response, I'm sorry.

At least we can both agree to vote for Obama.

< Message edited by domiguy -- 1/16/2008 3:12:42 PM >

_____________________________



(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Greenpeace has tracked down the Japanese whaleing f... - 1/16/2008 3:17:13 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Interesting discussion.  I never knew how important rattlesnakes are, though it of course makes perfect sense.

I do have to comment on a few things.  Dom Ken why would you think there never was (or isn't) a viable wild salmon industry? 

The problem is how wild salmon reproduce vs how we manage watersheds in their habitat. Every dam makes it a little harder for them to get upstream to successfully reproduce. Chemical runoff and dumping stresses the fish which further reduces reproduction rates. Logging and farming have changed how much flooding occurs in their spawning streams meaning even those that do lay and fertilize eggs have a worse chance for hatching fry than they are adapted to. There is even emerging evidence that the reduction in the beaver population has adversely affected juvenile salmon survival rates. Making all these problems worse is the twin issues of Pacific salmon taking several years to reach maturity, slower maturing animals are more difficult to successfully manage, and those same salmon die after spawning so successful individuals only breed once.

Some benefit might be had by the US and Canadian government greatly expanding the salmon hatcheries in order to support a commercial fishery but that would be a significant tax payer expenditure in support of a single industry. Alternatively commercial salmon fishers could band together and fund a hatchery system themselves but AIUI the margins may just be too small to allow for that sort of investment.

If the population was healthy and the habitat secure I'm sure there would be a sustainable catch but still doubt it would be sufficient to support a commercial fishery. The sheer abundance during a run makes it too easy to dismiss fishery management rules for short term profit.

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Greenpeace has tracked down the Japanese whaleing f... - 1/16/2008 3:45:35 PM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		Domken, that is just not the facts on the ground in Alaska, where we do have a thriving Wild salmon fishery, and have for quite a long time.  I agree California/Washington can't support one, no matter how many hatcheries they install.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Greenpeace has tracked down the Japanese whaleing f... - 1/16/2008 4:58:33 PM   
Najakcharmer


Posts: 2121
Joined: 5/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1
I see absolutly no moral difference in killing a whale and a mosquito.


It's not a matter of morality, but the impact on a population of removing a single adult breeder.  Whales and mosquitos are at rather opposite ends of the reproductive spectrum. 

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Greenpeace has tracked down the Japanese whaleing f... - 1/16/2008 6:20:03 PM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		Najak, that is of course a true point.

(in reply to Najakcharmer)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Greenpeace has tracked down the Japanese whaleing f... - 1/16/2008 7:07:51 PM   
Najakcharmer


Posts: 2121
Joined: 5/3/2004
Status: offline 		There are several entirely separate issues to consider in situations like this.  One of them is animal welfare and the morality of taking the life of a living creature or causing it suffering.  An entirely different issue is maintaining the long term health of the gene pool of that species.  Still another albeit closely related issue is the long term health of the ecosystem and the habitat. 

Wildlife management programs that work in the real world do invariably involve culling and/or limited commercial harvest that directly financially supports the preservation and patrolling of the habitat.   Sometimes they also involve captive breeding to supply a demand for products (like alligator skin) without impacting wild populations.  Some animal welfare folks are violently opposed to these kinds of programs because they involve the deaths of some animals in order to preserve the species and the ecosystem in the long term.  Unfortunately when the animal rights people get laws successfully passed that ban commercial harvest of sustainable species, the end result is generally that since the habitat is no longer directly producing income, it is no longer protected, and it tends to get utterly trashed by other types of commercial interests that have nothing to do with animals. 

No tickee no washee, no money no habitat, no habitat no animals.  Ecotourism is a great concept, but it doesn't bring in anywhere near enough dollars (or pesos, or rubles, or what have you) per acre for viable land management and protection.   Sustainable commercial harvest and controlled hunting/cull programs based on solid population data is literally the only hope that most wild species have of survival in the world we live in today.  The animal rights folks may think it sucks, and I agree that it rather does.  But if you live in the real world you need to look at the hard data and understand that in many cases there is no other hope and no other alternative to extinction.  Hyper-focusing on the morality of what gets done to individual animals at the expense of considering the long term survival of the species is not helpful. 

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Greenpeace has tracked down the Japanese whaleing f... - 1/16/2008 7:49:18 PM   
lablancsecret


Posts: 73
Joined: 11/27/2006
Status: offline 		We can't expect to enforce our beliefs and morality on another culture, especially one where whaling has been a culturally acceptable practice for centuries.

I don't give a rat's ass if we hate whaling, because whales are super wonderful animals. I support the right of a soverign nation to make decisions in its waters and the waters where it is permitted to harvest/hunt/fish. If they refuse to follow international law on whale hunting, then thats absolutely fine with me.

I mean, its not like Pakistan, India, and other nations comply with directives of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights...


_____________________________

Just remember this: I'm not asking for it, I'm pleading for it.


(in reply to slaveboyforyou)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Greenpeace has tracked down the Japanese whaleing f... - 1/16/2008 8:01:33 PM   
Daddysjezzy


Posts: 54
Joined: 7/4/2005
Status: offline 		If you want to play the centuries old tradition of whaling card then I think they need to do their hunting in the traditional whaling grounds of their people, using the traditional boats and harpoons that they used.  That way both the Japanese and the whales start on a level playing field.  I object to them whaling in a parts of the world their ancestors never had the capacity to hunt in,  especially the Antartic which is meant to be a sanctuary.  You want to kill whales, then do it in your own part of the world, in your own waters.

(in reply to lablancsecret)
Profile   Post #: 40
Page:   <<   < prev  1 [2] 3   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Greenpeace has tracked down the Japanese whaleing fleet. Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.110