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RE: Greenpeace has tracked down the Japanese whaleing f... - 1/16/2008 8:10:06 PM   
lablancsecret


Posts: 73
Joined: 11/27/2006
Status: offline 		I can understand objecting to harvesting in the Antartic, but again... please see previous post to see where I stand on that.

On the other hand, hunting as they used to? Thats just plain silly. I wouldn't demand a turkey hunter use a blunderbuss or bow and arrow (and I don't mean fancy bows made of carbon fiber and all that, although those are cool...), nor would I ask a cyote or deer hunter to stalk their game and throw spears at it like the cavemen did to similar prey so long ago.

If we go by that sort of philosophy, then we shouldn't farm animals, hunt with guns, use cars to get to hunting sites... and so on.


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(in reply to Daddysjezzy)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Greenpeace has tracked down the Japanese whaleing f... - 1/16/2008 8:27:41 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Domken, that is just not the facts on the ground in Alaska, where we do have a thriving Wild salmon fishery, and have for quite a long time.  I agree California/Washington can't support one, no matter how many hatcheries they install.

No. The unsustainable harvest in Alaska and parts of Canada just haven't driven the catch so low as to wipe out the fishery yet. You're lucky in that Alaska's watershed is not seriously industrialized so the effects haven't been as severe as in the US and southern Canada but it is only a matter of time.

Just to make clear how fragile the situation is check into research into long term reproductive impact of the Valdez oil spill on the Prince William Sound fishery.

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Greenpeace has tracked down the Japanese whaleing f... - 1/16/2008 8:37:21 PM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		Domken, in the 70s Alaskas salmon fisheries were almost wiped out, We choose to instittue tight managment (and fishermen had a very weak decade) and our stocks have rebounded incredibly.  BC choose to not limit fishing then, and now is paying the price.  The Valdez spill was terrible for the fishermen/fish, but there are still productive salmon fisheries in the Sound, and thousands of people make a decent living off them.  The reality though is that Sound fishermen blame Exxon for virtually everything they have to deal with.  You are right that if we dam all of our rivers and clear cut like Canadians we will have no fish.  Check out the reaction to the proposed Pebble mine, to see how we are protecting our fish habitat up here.

The fishery has been managed sustainably for a very long time.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Greenpeace has tracked down the Japanese whaleing f... - 1/16/2008 8:41:36 PM   
Muttling


Posts: 1612
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lablancsecret

I can understand objecting to harvesting in the Antartic, but again... please see previous post to see where I stand on that.

On the other hand, hunting as they used to? Thats just plain silly. I wouldn't demand a turkey hunter use a blunderbuss or bow and arrow (and I don't mean fancy bows made of carbon fiber and all that, although those are cool...), nor would I ask a cyote or deer hunter to stalk their game and throw spears at it like the cavemen did to similar prey so long ago.

If we go by that sort of philosophy, then we shouldn't farm animals, hunt with guns, use cars to get to hunting sites... and so on.




If the argument is that the Japanese should be allowed to hunt whales because it is a part of the historical culture and something that should not be lost, then they SHOULD hunt the traditional way of their culture.   This is what the Inuits do.

The international community SHOULD have every right to determine how to best protect international waters.   It is not he possession of a single country and not for a single country to exploit.   If the Japanese whaling limited whaling to their territorial waters, I would still be opposed but far less offended as that would happen within their country and they have a right to determine what happens in their own country.  On the same token, the international community has a right to collectively determine what happens in international waters.

(in reply to lablancsecret)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Greenpeace has tracked down the Japanese whaleing f... - 1/16/2008 8:42:58 PM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		Domi guy.  you may feel that you are as honest as possible when taking me to task.  That doesn't change the fact that most of you said I ignored, I actually directly adressed.  I guess that is honesty for someone like you.  Why bring up the Blue whale?  The Japanese are not attempting to harvest those, and are not an honest part of a discussion on Japanese whaling.

(in reply to Daddysjezzy)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Greenpeace has tracked down the Japanese whaleing f... - 1/16/2008 9:52:00 PM   
Najakcharmer


Posts: 2121
Joined: 5/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lablancsecret
I don't give a rat's ass if we hate whaling, because whales are super wonderful animals. I support the right of a soverign nation to make decisions in its waters and the waters where it is permitted to harvest/hunt/fish. If they refuse to follow international law on whale hunting, then thats absolutely fine with me.


The main problem with that is that the whale population as a whole - and thus the whale population in many other countries - is significantly affected by Japan's decision to take an unsustainable number of breeding adults out of the population both in and out of their local waters.  In short they are impacting not just "their" whales, but all whales everywhere of the commercially taken species.

Ecosystems, species and gene pools don't know from political boundaries.  If one nation depletes the population, it does affect everyone.  That's what international law is for, to make sure that there can be a fair and sustainable harvest for everyone in time, not a greedy grab for the next couple of years by one nation that destroys the resource completely. 

(in reply to lablancsecret)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Greenpeace has tracked down the Japanese whaleing f... - 1/16/2008 11:22:43 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lablancsecret
I support the right of a soverign nation to make decisions in its waters and the waters where it is permitted to harvest/hunt/fish. If they refuse to follow international law on whale hunting, then thats absolutely fine with me.

But that's the rub.

Japan is not legally allowed to harvest a single whale outside of its territorial waters. Not one of any species at any time. What Japan is doing is calling commercial whaling 'whale research.' Even under the rules laid out for allowable cetacean research by the international community the Japanese hunt is far outside their allowed quota. Besides which no published research is emerging from this so called research.

Then there is the dirty little secret of the Japanese whaling industry, they have to practically give away most of the meat they do harvest. Most Japanese only started eating whale after WWII when the nation was on the verge of starvation. Now most Japanese have reverted back to their more traditional protein sources. The only good reason the Japanese whaling industry survives is due to the Japanese fisheries bureaucracy subsidizing it to keep the fisheries staff that oversees whaling employeed.

(in reply to lablancsecret)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Greenpeace has tracked down the Japanese whaleing f... - 1/17/2008 12:17:46 AM   
Najakcharmer


Posts: 2121
Joined: 5/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Then there is the dirty little secret of the Japanese whaling industry, they have to practically give away most of the meat they do harvest. Most Japanese only started eating whale after WWII when the nation was on the verge of starvation. Now most Japanese have reverted back to their more traditional protein sources. The only good reason the Japanese whaling industry survives is due to the Japanese fisheries bureaucracy subsidizing it to keep the fisheries staff that oversees whaling employeed.


Knowing Japanese food culture, I'm not sure I can believe that.  I've seen whale meat preparations and recipes talked about with great culinary enthusiasm by various Japanese folks ranging from housewives to chefs.  I would not knowingly purchase the meat of a threatened species if my money were subsidizing an unsustainable harvest, but were it already on the table before me, I would eat.  I understand that it is quite good, though it can be easily spoiled with improper cooking methods.  As it is very fatty, a sashimi preparation is recommended. 

Dammit, now I'm all hungry and I'm going to have to go out for toro sushi.  And as far as I've been able to determine when talking cuisine with native Japanese, that's a pretty typical attitude towards whale meat.  It's yummy and they want some.   Like me, some would refrain from buying whale meat because they respect the conservation status of the species, but I simply have never run into any Japanese who said that whale meat was bad to eat.  I'm sure that individual preferences do apply, but it seems to be pretty well recognized as "good food" in Japanese culture.  I can't imagine that it would go cheaply. 

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Greenpeace has tracked down the Japanese whaleing f... - 1/17/2008 2:04:40 AM   
Feric


Posts: 227
Joined: 1/9/2008
From: San Francisco
Status: offline 		For the record, I have tried whale meat. While in Japan, one of my Japanese friends insisted I eat some. It was already prepared, so i figured "What the Hell?"

It's good! Damn good! Sort of like seagoing beef, with a slightly salty-sweet taste. I can see why some nations continue to hunt whales.


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(in reply to wankerforuse)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Greenpeace has tracked down the Japanese whaleing f... - 1/17/2008 2:08:55 AM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		From a sustainability viewpoint, isn't there a problem with not enough fish for historicall numbers of whales to eat.  So many large ocean stocks are down.  That is happening with walurus, and the popuations are showing a lot of stress from not enough food.

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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Greenpeace has tracked down the Japanese whaleing f... - 1/17/2008 6:24:50 AM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		Personally, I am against whale hunting, as I see there being no need to hunt whales as there are many alternatives to the traditional products whales give up in their processing.

Hunting whales under the pretence of scientific research I find dishonest, I would be keen to know what information is it they require to condone the killing of these creatures, that information I believe should be put to the world, there may well be an answer if they chose to look for it elsewhere. There by doing that, the world can see and there tell the Japanese the scientific research idea is basically crap and we all know they are hunting for wealthy people to eat as a delicacy, a profiteering venture.

Whaling is banned worldwide I think, get rid of the scientific research bluff and then Japan is acting illegally and should be dealt with as a criminal.

But from what I have seen of the various protest vessels, Green peace and Sea Shepherd, fine in following, getting in the way etc, but boarding ships,throwing things on ships, could that not be looked upon as a form of piracy ?

If stopping the hunt is the aim, I do believe it should be done by legal means, for I would hate to see the 'Good guys', being criminalised for their belief.

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Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

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(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Greenpeace has tracked down the Japanese whaleing f... - 1/17/2008 7:18:26 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

From a sustainability viewpoint, isn't there a problem with not enough fish for historicall numbers of whales to eat.  So many large ocean stocks are down.  That is happening with walurus, and the popuations are showing a lot of stress from not enough food.

Most of the big whales, the baleen whales, do not eat fish as a major part of their diet. Their primary food is plankton. Their teeth and jaws have become adapted to taking mouthfuls of seawater and then pushing it out through the baleen which acts as a filter. They're left with a mouthful of the tiny stuff that forms the base of the ocean food chain.

As to the Japanese diet I didn't say that whale was not part of the Japanese diet prior to 1945 but that it was not a significant portion of the cuisine prior to that. Which is pretty easy to verify.
http://luna.pos.to/whale/jwa_trad.html

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Greenpeace has tracked down the Japanese whaleing f... - 1/17/2008 1:26:48 PM   
Muttling


Posts: 1612
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline 		Looks like Sea Shepard has gotten into the act as well....

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/01/17/activists.ship/index.html

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 53
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