RE: BDSM & Vanilla: Us VS Them or We Are Them?

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RE: BDSM & Vanilla: Us VS Them or We Are Them? - 1/14/2008 1:56:37 AM

BitaTruble

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

That is well said. So there is no us or them. If people are happy how they live, then it is good.

No matter what? No matter how negatively it may affect someone else?

I wouldn't say no matter what. If I'm filled by being a serial killer, certainly that is not a good thing!

Celeste

edited to add: I could have just said ditto to owned. ::laughs::

You two are just plain stuck with one another. A good thing, though.

Yeah. We realized a long time ago that we pretty much share a brain and I'm fairly certain that our respective Masters were separated at birth.

Celeste

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RE: BDSM & Vanilla: Us VS Them or We Are Them? - 1/14/2008 2:11:16 AM

BitaTruble

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

Are we talking about persons, or about 2 "opposing" groups. I see a lot of examples about "I" . Which is great also, but isn't it interesting to compare the view of the groups "them" and "us"

It's what got me to thinking about the OP in the first place. Us Vs Them on the one hand.. and on the other We Are Them.

Your use of the word opposing made a bit of a lightbulb go off in my head though. The term 'versus' does rather incite a combative mindset. Perhaps I should use Us and Them because I don't buy into the We Are Them mindset.

I think of "Us" (alternative) and "Them" (vanilla) and see them as completely separate ways to live out sexual (and all the letters that go with it) and/or authority dynamics regarding personal relationships. By my using 'versus' it does seem like it's a war and it's really not.

Celeste

< Message edited by BitaTruble -- 1/14/2008 2:15:16 AM >

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RE: BDSM & Vanilla: Us VS Them or We Are Them? - 1/14/2008 2:15:59 AM

Asherdelampyr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

Are we talking about persons, or about 2 "opposing" groups. I see a lot of examples about "I" . Which is great also, but isn't it interesting to compare the view of the groups "them" and "us"

It's what got me to thinking about the OP in the first place. Us Vs Them on the one hand.. and on the other We Are Them.

Your use of the word opposing made a bit of a lightbulb go off in my head though. The term 'versus' does rather incite a combative mindset. Perhaps I should use Us and Them because I don't buy into the We Are Them mindset.

I think of "Us" (alternative) and "Them" (vanilla) and see them as completely separate ways to live out sexual and/or authority dynamics regarding personal relationships. By my using 'versus' it does seem like it's a war and it's really not.

Celeste

that does make sense. for a war, we would have to hate them. I dont see any aspect of my life as "Vanilla" whether its going to the store to get a new knife to play with, or buying a new book on poly or S&M. Not sure where my "Vanilla" time would come in. I realize though that I am probably the exception, not the norm. Im compleatly out, mya family knows, even my boss knows what I do with my life (that ones actualy a really funny story involving and email getting sent to the wrong person) and nobody cares. It allows me more freedom, at least in my own mind, since I dont have to worry about hiding anything

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RE: BDSM & Vanilla: Us VS Them or We Are Them? - 1/14/2008 2:29:30 AM

BitaTruble

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Asherdelampyr
that does make sense. for a war, we would have to hate them. I dont see any aspect of my life as "Vanilla" whether its going to the store to get a new knife to play with, or buying a new book on poly or S&M. Not sure where my "Vanilla" time would come in. I realize though that I am probably the exception, not the norm. Im compleatly out, mya family knows, even my boss knows what I do with my life (that ones actualy a really funny story involving and email getting sent to the wrong person) and nobody cares. It allows me more freedom, at least in my own mind, since I dont have to worry about hiding anything

Actually, I completely agree with this and not because I'm out. I'm simply not vanilla. If I were, I'd like to think that I would be damn proud that I was!

I know that a lot of folks believe that going out shopping, paying bills etc. are vanilla things to do and I won't deny they may be a drudge but that's just life. Mundane and necessary.

When I'm at the grocery store, I'm not vanilla. There is no relationship between myself and the veggies aisle (well, there is, but that's not the point! lol) and the cashier who checks out my groceries. I'm there as a customer. Having a doctors appointment doesn't mean that I'm vanilla at the doctors office .. I'm a patient.

Regardless of any activity I may be doing that doesn't change my core personal relationship dynamic with my partner and 'that' relationship is the one in which I live my ultimate truth. It happens to be alternative in nature.

Celeste

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RE: BDSM & Vanilla: Us VS Them or We Are Them? - 1/14/2008 2:40:15 AM

Asherdelampyr

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RE: BDSM & Vanilla: Us VS Them or We Are Them? - 1/14/2008 3:12:57 AM

Level

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
You two are just plain stuck with one another. A good thing, though.

She's not a bad person to be stuck to....heh...

No, she isn't. Neither of you are.

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RE: BDSM & Vanilla: Us VS Them or We Are Them? - 1/14/2008 3:41:05 AM

Justme696

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quote:

When I'm at the grocery store, I'm not vanilla. There is no relationship between myself and the veggies aisle (well, there is, but that's not the point! lol) and the cashier who checks out my groceries. I'm there as a customer. Having a doctors appointment doesn't mean that I'm vanilla at the doctors office .. I'm a patient.

I love how clear you described that. We could say ït is in "our blood". It has no on-off button. We can all happily live together, there are always people with an opion on both sides. But we are used to that not?

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RE: BDSM & Vanilla: Us VS Them or We Are Them? - 1/14/2008 4:57:35 AM

AquaticSub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

If We Are Them, and just as closed-minded as our vanilla counterparts, why do we feel so comfortable talking about our cocks, pussy's, bruises, parties, limits, Golden showers, blood play, bondage .. well, the list goes on and on, doesn't it?

*snip*
It is often said that there is some grain of truth to sterotypes, so if the stereotype, the assumption, the expectation from someone entering BDSM (and from many who have been here a while as well) is one of honesty, integrity and openess.. from where does it stem?

Celeste

Because of my own personal experiences, I have a hard time thinking this is a BDSM thing. My own coming of age was surrounded by other young people who were open to exploring their sexuality, there was plenty of playful smearing of frosting and looking things up to see what was true and what wasn't. Even now I am out to most of my friends and most aren't into all this, some kinky sex every now and then, but not all the time. But we still talk about it and we have fun talking about sex and sharing all those juicy details.

It's possible I've been incredibly lucky but I have found a lot of "vanilla" people who were just as happy to talk about sex in as much detail as BDSM folks.

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RE: BDSM & Vanilla: Us VS Them or We Are Them? - 1/14/2008 6:03:30 AM

RCdc

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I am from the we are them mindset hey, but I guess you know that Celeste.

I have to say I have never seen a difference in so called 'vanilla' people having the ability to talk about their sexual and not sexual happenings in their relationship. They do so all the time. There are those I consider prudes in BDSM circles too. I do not believe that the openess to 'cocks and pussys' is purely a BDSM thang. Not in my experience anyway.

But then, I do not believe there is a segregation - but more of levels of 'kinkiness' or 'sexual awareness'-which is where the whole 'its better/open blah' stems from.

the.dark.

< Message edited by Darcyandthedark -- 1/14/2008 6:07:59 AM >

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RE: BDSM & Vanilla: Us VS Them or We Are Them? - 1/14/2008 6:12:14 AM

catize

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I was one of those who entered BDSM believing in the ideal that it was different; more open and honest. I soon learned that a more cynical approach was called for.

It doesn’t matter if it is ‘us’ or ‘them’. Any relationship that is working well is based on honesty and integrity, trust and open communication.

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RE: BDSM & Vanilla: Us VS Them or We Are Them? - 1/14/2008 6:31:00 AM

breatheasone

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quote:

why do we feel so comfortable talking about our cocks, pussy's, bruises, parties, limits, Golden showers, blood play, bondage .. well, the list goes on and on, doesn't it?

Speaking to this part of the OP...I'm really not overly confident and comfortable talking about this stuff....I have gotten better since participating on the forum board, Hence I've gotten more comfortable with "other" asspects of WIITWD.

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RE: BDSM & Vanilla: Us VS Them or We Are Them? - 1/14/2008 8:00:47 AM

JDEmpath

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To bring up the Us and Them issue...

Humanity is addicted to Us and Them. It does not matter what the criteria for Us-ship and Them-ness are, people seem to have an innate need (human nature?) to identify with a group in opposition to another group of humans. This is part of the reason we are so successful in the Darwinian sense. But the fact that many of us are questioning the validity of it seems to indicate that we may be in the midst of a fundamental shift in "human nature". Evolution, including cerebrally-directed evolution, requires many generations to have an effect however.

I, for one, hope that we will eventually evolve past the need for "Us and Them". Perhaps this is why I can not really identify myself in any group, BDSM or otherwise.

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RE: BDSM & Vanilla: Us VS Them or We Are Them? - 1/14/2008 8:02:20 AM

juliaoceania

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quote:

It is often said that there is some grain of truth to sterotypes, so if the stereotype, the assumption, the expectation from someone entering BDSM (and from many who have been here a while as well) is one of honesty, integrity and openess.. from where does it stem?

I do not know who said that, but I do not think that is right. In fact if one were to look at penis size stereotype and Black men, Black men do not have larger penises than any other people on average. That is just one example. Jewish people are not greedy tightwads either.

I do not think that people in any lifestyle are more intrinsically honest, etc, from doctors to clergymen. I suppose I am just jaded. On the other hand we are not less honest either. I think these myths that we tell about ourselves are precisely because of persecution complexes some people feel as a part of a subculture like this one. It also glamorizes a person's lifestyle choice. At its worst it is a myth that makes some people easy prey for those who have bad intentions.

My mom told me when I was a teen that if anyone said "Trust me, I am an [insert pro-noun here]" I should run the other way because people who deserve trust do not have to announce it. Insert Christian, doctor, teacher... or yes... even dom, in that sentence.

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RE: BDSM & Vanilla: Us VS Them or We Are Them? - 1/14/2008 8:08:45 AM

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I really dislike the term vanilla as many (I am not accusing you of this) who use it use it in such a way as to be demeaning and somehow less because they don't get the lifestyle.

I think we are very similar to "them" in many ways because I have discovered that many of us are very judgmental even while proclaiming that we need to be open-minded.

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RE: BDSM & Vanilla: Us VS Them or We Are Them? - 1/14/2008 8:15:14 AM

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I agree, I think, with your statement. There is nothing wrong with wanting to be a part of "us" until it becomes hurtful and exclusionary and used to demean others. And sadly, I see that quite a bit amongst "us".

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RE: BDSM & Vanilla: Us VS Them or We Are Them? - 1/14/2008 8:25:25 AM

HizBabyGirl

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I'm sorry for taking up three posts here but there are many valuable and honest comments her that capture my attention and make me think.

I think one of the main reasons why I feel I cannot be "out" with my family is that I had the misfortune to become involved with a very cruel, sick and twisted "dom" early in my acknowledgment of my d/s nature. It went very badly and really messed me up for quite some time afterward. So I feel that if I were to tell my family about my involvement it would confuse them and they might wonder if I did not secretly enjoy the mental and physical abuse I suffered from my previous relationship. I think also I have this fear that somehow that wil happen to me again and then I would have no support for people might say I asked for it?

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RE: BDSM & Vanilla: Us VS Them or We Are Them? - 1/14/2008 10:02:23 AM

Justme696

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HizBabyGirl

I really dislike the term vanilla as many (I am not accusing you of this) who use it use it in such a way as to be demeaning and somehow less because they don't get the lifestyle.

I think we are very similar to "them" in many ways because I have discovered that many of us are very judgmental even while proclaiming that we need to be open-minded.

I am vanilla, the Master part is my extra's.

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RE: BDSM & Vanilla: Us VS Them or We Are Them? - 1/14/2008 10:14:45 AM

Missokyst

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I must know different nilla friends. Most people I talk to have no issues about sex, talking about it, bragging about it, mentioning cock size.. heck.. even my mother jokes about bulges in jeans. I wonder where the idea that nillas are prudish, closed minded and shun sex came into being? It sure isn't evident in the people I know.
Kyst

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RE: BDSM & Vanilla: Us VS Them or We Are Them? - 1/14/2008 10:17:55 AM

Jeffff

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RE: BDSM & Vanilla: Us VS Them or We Are Them? - 1/14/2008 11:30:12 AM

ownedgirlie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
I do not know who said that, but I do not think that is right. In fact if one were to look at penis size stereotype and Black men, Black men do not have larger penises than any other people on average. That is just one example. Jewish people are not greedy tightwads either.

You obviously haven't met my Master (ha, kidding).

This does bode the question though, of where stereotypes come from, in any facet? Is it because of displayed behavior? It is what we want to see or believe? I think the stereotype of honesty and integrity in the D/s or BDSM lifestyle may come from fantasy chat room conversations - the same place of ancient training homes in Europe, kind of stuff. How many Yahoo chatrooms used to exist of various "Homesteads" in which words like honor and integrity were bandied about like gospel?

It's a fine notion, but hardly reality. And perhaps that is the case for any other stereotype as well.

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