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T..... You must not read my posts or you would know my feelings on this war... or maybe you just like to type then read your own words over and over again...damn you sure do a lot of that... longest and most rambling posts on CM.

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The Middle East Solution?

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ORIGINAL: Marc2b

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So you think that Palestinians... etc...

The Palestinians had the opportunity to have their own state in 1947. The rejected it because they refused to accept the existence of Israel. They continue to refuse to accept the existence of Israel. That, is what continues to drive this conflict. You focus on a root cause, reduced to a simplistic "good guy versus bad guys" scenario. I am looking beyond that. If you slip on some ice, fall onto to the sidewalk and break your arm, you can rant and rave about the negligent homeowner who didn’t clear his sidewalk all you want – it’s not going to solve the problem of the broken arm. You need to get up and go to the hospital. Likewise the Palestinians can throw rocks and blow up their children all they want, it’s clearly not solving the problem of securing a Palestinian state. In fact, it is showing itself to be counter productive.

If you read your history the Arabs of Trans-Jordania didn't refuse to accept Israel, they rejected the agreement on the table and the zionists then saw that as an excuse to claim rejection and declare the existence of the state of Israel and ethnically cleanse sections of the country that didn't evacuate. You are idley accepting the Israeli propaganda version so readily believed in much of the west, particularly the US because it is convenient for US policy. Even at the time, British and US intelligence knew the Arabs were military weak and couldn't do anything about the zionists so it was convenient for the UN to vote on ending the British mandate the British to cut and run rather than to bother to renegotiate and find common agreement. This conflict was created because the international community allowed the extremists to take the situation in their own hands rather than take the responsibility of governing the territory they administered properly and the world is still paying that price for that neglect and which is ongoing.


You continue to speak of the Israelis as if they all want to wipe out the Palestinians. Absolutes are seldom true and I’ve seen no evidence that even the majority of Israelis want to utterly destroy the Palestinians, your quoting of a few fanatics aside. I believe that the majority of Israelis would welcome (or at least accept) a Palestinian state – including the withdrawal of the settlements (the settlers will howl no doubt but nobody said this was going to be easy or fair) if it meant peace. The major problem from their point of view is that they don’t trust the Palestinians not to stop attacking them, which is why they want fences, military checkpoints, security zones and even the settlements for now (your enemy can’t use a particular piece of real estate to attack you from if he doesn’t control it).

The Israeli policy has been to destroy the idea of Palestine and ethnically cleanse the Arabs. This policy has been repeated by many Israeli leaders, they have never been shy about saying what they want. I can't help it if the unpalatable statements of Israeli leaders is not reported in the US because it would embarrass US policy.

You state that a return to the pre-1967 borders would be the only solution in the long run. I would go even further and say something resembling the 1947 partition plan (including Jerusalem as an international city) would be the more just solution. Granted the Israelis would not be as keen on this (particularly giving up Jerusalem) as they are in accepting the existence of a Palestinian state. And we know that the Palestinians won’t accept it. Which brings us back to the original problem. How do we get there from here?

Most of the Arab world has said it would accept the 1967 borders, it is Israel that won't accept them. Israel is worried that the US would come round to seeing the '67 borders as a solution which is why they are building as many settlements as they can so as to make a return to '67 borders nigh on impossible.

Since it is the Palestinians refusal to accept the existence of Israel that continues to drive the conflict, the power to end it lies in their hands. First, by giving up their desire to destroy Israel. It is not going to happen, at least, not in a way that doesn’t destroy themselves in the process. If they take that first step they open the door to a peaceful solution.

The end doesn't lay in their hands. It is the US that drives the conflict forward by bank rolling one side and demonizing the other rather than being an honest broker and seeking a just solution. While the US turns a blind eye to Israel ignoring UN resolutions, breaking internationally accepted human rights laws and running an apartheid state, they have no pressure to reach a just agreement. As I have pointed out, most Arab states would agree to pre '67 borders and if that should happen, Palestinian extremists would find it impossible to comply.

The next step would be the rejection of violence and the adoption of non-violent resistence. It helped free India from Britain and to launch the civil rights movement in America – who’s to say it won’t work in this situation. Remember Bull Connor attacking non-violent protesters with dogs and fire hoses? Imagine scenes like that playing out everyday in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. Any American President (of either party), not to mention leaders all over the world would soon find themselves heavily pressured by public opinion to lean heavily on Israel. Israel herself (and the pro-Israeli lobby) would stand shamed before the world. It’s hard to generate sympathy when you’re beating up on unarmed people who won’t hit back. It’s not so hard when your kids are being blown up by people who strap bombs on their own kids to do it.


Why is it that it is the Palestinians that have to reject violence and not the Israels? If you look at the death count, it is four Palestinains killed to every one Israeli so you can see who is real violent. It is the Israelis with the tanks, planes and missiles. All the Palestinians have are stones and home made rockets which one British officier called no more dangerous than fireworks and if you look at the deaths caused by Palestinian rockets, more British people have been killed on Bon Fire night than Israelis have been killed by home made Palestinian rockets. I accept the Palesttinians are stupid because such rockets give the Israelis an excuse to kill and cleanse Israel if yet more Palestinians.

That is the ultimate reason why violence is self defeating to their cause. People come to focus on the results of the violence and lose sympathy despite any legitimate grievances the Palestinians may have.

The loss of sympathy is in the west because the west wants an easy life but in most places around the world that have suffered or are suffering at the hands of western colonialism and capitalism, the sympathy is very much there for the Palestinians. Again, another reason why the west should try for a resolution, this conflict in large parts of the world is seen as created by the west which it was.

You can continue to rant and rave about Israel did this and Israel did that, the Palestinians can continue with the violence but the results will only be a continuation of the status quo for years – if not decades – to come, perhaps ending in annihilation. Or, the Palestinians can decide to take a different path. They can decide that they love their children more than they hate Israel. They can decide that peace with their Jewish neighbors and prosperity for themselves is worth more than revenge. From what I’ve seen I can’t say I am overly optimistic that they will make such a choice, but that choice is theirs.

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Japanese telivisions are how they beat us... etc...

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ORIGINAL: Marc2b

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If you read your history the Arabs of Trans-Jordania...

 
Once again you are reducing everything to a simplistic good guys versus bad guys scenario. What matters is not what some of Israelis leaders have said. It doesn’t matter what the Arab governments will accept. What matters is what the majority of the Israeli people will accept versus the what majority of the Palestinian people will accept. Everything I have read, seen or heard (including talking to actual Israelis and Palestinians) indicates that the majority of the Israel people are willing to come to terms but the Palestinians are not. That puts the power to continue the conflict or end it squarely in the Palestinians hands. You’re talking ideology, I’m talking tactics.

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

I don't know what you are reading because opinion polls and election results in Israel say they won't accept giving up land for peace and won't contenance pre '67 borders which is the only realistic solution.

If you ask them if they want peace, of course the Israelis will say yes, everyone answers yes to that simple question. If you ask them if they are willing to withdraw from the west bank, the answer is always no.

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ORIGINAL: kdsub

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

I don't know what you are reading because opinion polls and election results in Israel say they won't accept giving up land for peace and won't contenance pre '67 borders which is the only realistic solution.

If you ask them if they want peace, of course the Israelis will say yes, everyone answers yes to that simple question. If you ask them if they are willing to withdraw from the west bank, the answer is always no.

It seems to me the Israelis were happy enough with the pre 67 borders... look what it got them in 67. They will not allow themselves in that type of military disadvantage again…I can’t blame them. There has to be true compromise on BOTH sides.

Believe me I am not taking the Israelis side… they have an equal share in perpetuating this tragic war. But they will not and I don’t expect them to disarm and surround themselves in an indefensible position. You should not expect that either.

The Anti-Israeli nations have to understand there will be permanent repercussions for their past aggressions just as the Israelis will have to understand the same.

Butch

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ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

All these international alliances are bullshit. People need to be left alone, solve their own problems, and whoever wins, we deal with them. But NOOOOOO, like John Belushi used to say. We have to run the world. Our ideals and morality are the only right ones, and we must expand this morality to the edges of the Earth via military force.
 
T

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Read your history. The Israelis started the '67 war.

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ORIGINAL: kdsub

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Read your history. The Israelis started the '67 war.

No Syria started the 67 War by bombing from the Golan heights. Israel responded with aerial attacks and shot up the Syrian air force. Syria had a defense treaty with Egypt and asked for help. ...

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ORIGINAL: kdsub

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Read your history. The Israelis started the '67 war.

No Syria started the 67 War by bombing from the Golan heights. Israel responded with aerial attacks and shot up the Syrian air force. Syria had a defense treaty with Egypt and asked for help.

Jeez, now you are showing you really do know nothing. The first action of the '67 war was the Israelis air attacks on Egypt.

Nasser kicked out the UN… put an Amy in the Sinia and closed the Strait of Tiran

Here is a quote from Egypt

Egypt had every right to expell the UN from the Sinai as it was their territory. The UN troops were there because of the combined aggression of Israel, Britain and France in 1956 which later became known as the Suez Crisis. Please note. Israel Britain and France made an unprovoked attack on Egypt. British paratroopers later said the whole affair was shaming, they thought they had been sent to fight an aggressive enemy but what they found was that they had been sent to murder civilian men and women who had obsolete weapons who were trying to protect their country. Once you read up on the Suez crisis, the unprovoked aggression and the murder of hundreds of defenceless Egyptian civilians, Egyptian rhetoric becomes understandable, if rather foolish.

“As of today, there no longer exists an international emergency force to protect Israel. We shall exercise patience no more. We shall not complain any more to the UN about Israel. The sole method we shall apply against Israel is total war, which will result in the extermination of Zionist existence”

Rhetoric, you will find similar rhetorical quotes made by Israel to prove they were the aggressors, you are being selective. The fact is that Israel attacked Egypt which was what started the war.

On June 5, 1967, the war broke out. Initially, both Egypt and Israel announced that they had been attacked by the other country.[5][6][7][8] However, soon it became clear that in fact it was Israel that had started the fighting, and had launched what is commonly viewed as a pre-emptive attack[9]
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War

Here is what Syria said the same day

Our forces are now entirely ready not only to repulse the aggression, but to initiate the act of liberation itself, and to explode the Zionist presence in the Arab homeland. The Syrian army, with its finger on the trigger, is united....I, as a military man, believe that the time has come to enter into a battle of annihilation.(7)

Egypt and Jordan made this announcement

The armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon are poised on the borders of Israel...to face the challenge, while standing behind us are the armies of Iraq, Algeria, Kuwait, Sudan and the whole Arab nation. This act will astound the world. Today they will know that the Arabs are arranged for battle, the critical hour has arrived. We have reached the stage of serious action and not declarations.(13)

Nasser again

"Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight," he said on May 27.(11) The following day, he added: "We will not accept any...coexistence with Israel...Today the issue is not the establishment of peace between the Arab states and Israel....The war with Israel is in effect since 1948

Yep Israel could set back and wait for an attack they did not know if they could stop or they could make a pre-emptive air strike on its greatest threat… the air forces of the Arab nations.

They were one nation against the combined forces of…Syria, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq, Algeria, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and the Sudan… these armies were supplied by Russia.

Actually this is just propaganda and not true. To say all Arab states are one nation and have one policy is like saying all European states are one nation, its a load of bull. If you look at the Arab armies you will see that they had no armies worth talking about at the time, they were just men in hats. Israeli, British and US intelligence knew at the time that a war between Arab states and Israel would be a no-contest. This is well recorded.

They were wrong…. Egypt was wrong…. Syria was wrong…. More action and reaction it continues today …Please reread my first post in this thread.

Again you are quoting rhetoric and only selecting rhetoric from one side to try and prove your point. I could give you a book load of similar quotes made by Israel to prove they were the aggressors. The fact remains, the initial attack was made by Israel in '67 and it was Israel along with Britain and France that made an unprovoked attack on Egypt in '56.

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ORIGINAL: HaveRopeWillBind

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ORIGINAL: kdsub

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Read your history. The Israelis started the '67 war.

No Syria started the 67 War by bombing from the Golan heights. Israel responded with aerial attacks and shot up the Syrian air force. Syria had a defense treaty with Egypt and asked for help. ...

In the interests of accuracy it was the Palestinians who were sending rockets into Israel from the Golan Heights with the financial and material backing of the Syrian government. This had been going on for years before Israel finally got tired of it and reacted. It also is a major part of why the Israelis have had such a hard time making peace with the Palestinians. Still too many Israelis alive who remember this.

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don't know what you are reading because opinion polls and election results in Israel say they won't accept giving up land for peace and won't contenance pre '67 borders which is the only realistic solution.

If you ask them if they want peace, of course the Israelis will say yes, everyone answers yes to that simple question. If you ask them if they are willing to withdraw from the west bank, the answer is always no.

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ORIGINAL: Marc2b

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don't know what you are reading because opinion polls and election results in Israel say they won't accept giving up land for peace and won't contenance pre '67 borders which is the only realistic solution.

If you ask them if they want peace, of course the Israelis will say yes, everyone answers yes to that simple question. If you ask them if they are willing to withdraw from the west bank, the answer is always no.

Would you withdraw if your enemy was determined to destroy you? As I said earlier, the Israelis like their fences and security zones for a reason – they don’t trust the Palestinians to keep their word and not simply advance forward and launch a new round of attacks. The bottom line remains that until the Palestinians accept the existence of Israel, this conflict continues.