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RE: Some religions believe - 1/16/2008 9:38:14 AM   
FRSguy


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Joined: 9/4/2007
Status: offline 		As far as I know (which isnt much) they were considered married because they had sex.  In the new Testament a woman who was a whore was refered to as having many husbands and was told to return to her true husband which was her first.  So, the concept I was taught was that by having sex with a woman it, in a religeouse perspective, ment that the couple was married and was the only reference of what caused a man and a woman to be married as in there is no real mention of ceramony.  Now in the case of lilith it does not create a situation where Eve is a second wife.  This is because Adam and Lilith did not have sex because according to the Bible Lilith was incapable of reproduction ... humans could not reproduce until after Eve bit the apple so to speak which also kind of screws with the lilith legend later on in the legend with the Cane thing. Its not even certain if people even had genitals because there were no need for it, woman meaning only from man not different than man.

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RE: Some religions believe - 1/16/2008 9:42:00 AM   
Justme696


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From: Royal kingdom of the Netherlands
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FRSguy

As far as I know (which isnt much) they were considered married because they had sex.  In the new Testament a woman who was a whore was refered to as having many husbands and was told to return to her true husband which was her first.  So, the concept I was taught was that by having sex with a woman it, in a religeouse perspective, ment that the couple was married and was the only reference of what caused a man and a woman to be married as in there is no real mention of ceramony.  Now in the case of lilith it does not create a situation where Eve is a second wife.  This is because Adam and Lilith did not have sex because according to the Bible Lilith was incapable of reproduction ... humans could not reproduce until after Eve bit the apple so to speak which also kind of screws with the lilith legend later on in the legend with the Cane thing. Its not even certain if people even had genitals because there were no need for it, woman meaning only from man not different than man.



I gonna say this and then hide :P

So Females are bad .  The first 2 on Earth  were both sinners ( a score of 100% )    ;)



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RE: Some religions believe - 1/16/2008 9:44:25 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

How come Jesus did not write a book in the bible.


Merc's Top 10 reasons there is no 'Book of Jesus' in the Bible...
10. - He lived in a poor community, perhaps he was a child left behind?
  9.  - He used a laptop and before he could hit save - his battery died?
  8. - He had ADD and no Ritalin back then?
  7. - The dog ate it?
  6. - Similar to what's going on in Hollywood now, perhaps they had a 'Scribe's Strike' and, being in the 'Carpenter's Union'  he honored the picket lines?
  5. - Two words - "writers block".
  4. - He did, but the Pharisees refused to publish it - thus the first ever conspiracy theory.
  3. - His editors caught him plagiarizing some of the chapters and he got nailed for it?
  2. - He could only express himself in music, deferring to John to write the lyrics.
 
And the #1 Reason there is no "Book of Jesus" in the Bible...
 
He wrote a great one but he's on a 2000+ year 'waiting for approval' from his Mod?


< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 1/16/2008 10:10:48 AM >

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RE: Some religions believe - 1/16/2008 9:47:44 AM   
Asherdelampyr


Posts: 9556
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

quote:

ORIGINAL: FRSguy

As far as I know (which isnt much) they were considered married because they had sex.  In the new Testament a woman who was a whore was refered to as having many husbands and was told to return to her true husband which was her first.  So, the concept I was taught was that by having sex with a woman it, in a religeouse perspective, ment that the couple was married and was the only reference of what caused a man and a woman to be married as in there is no real mention of ceramony.  Now in the case of lilith it does not create a situation where Eve is a second wife.  This is because Adam and Lilith did not have sex because according to the Bible Lilith was incapable of reproduction ... humans could not reproduce until after Eve bit the apple so to speak which also kind of screws with the lilith legend later on in the legend with the Cane thing. Its not even certain if people even had genitals because there were no need for it, woman meaning only from man not different than man.



I gonna say this and then hide :P

So Females are bad .  The first 2 on Earth  were both sinners ( a score of 100% )    ;)


My mother always told me women are evil... :P


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RE: Some religions believe - 1/16/2008 9:49:00 AM   
Justme696


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quote:

My mother always told me women are evil... :P



Mine too, but I am so glad I never listened. I love them bad :D


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RE: Some religions believe - 1/16/2008 9:50:50 AM   
giveeverything


Posts: 348
Joined: 9/4/2007
Status: offline 		Perhaps we should all do what Thomas Jefferson did to the Bible and cut out the parts we think are inconsistant with our world view -- get an exacto (sp?) knife and have at it.  I always wonder how homosexuality became the religious right's great wedge issue when it's rarely mentioned.. yet feeding the poor, taking care of orphans and widows is all over the place and we are slashing and burning our social safety nets.  shrugs.. it remains a mystery to me. 

For interesting reading you might check out John Crossan's "God and Empire:  Jesus against Rome then and now."  Puts the bible in political/cultural context and a hell of a read from the foremost scholar on the historical jesus.  Don't paint all religious folks with such a broad brush.. some are thoughtful and considerate.

BTW.. good to see another recovering mormon on here.  Personally, I couldn't get out fast enough.  And getting out lent me a lot of room to explore my own moral codes, it's been an exciting ride ever since.

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Profile   Post #: 126
RE: Some religions believe - 1/16/2008 9:52:29 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		Women evil?  Nah.
Bad?  You better believe the hype...
 
the.dark.

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RE: Some religions believe - 1/16/2008 9:53:29 AM   
LadyLolly


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Joined: 5/21/2005
Status: offline 		What about the christian sects that practice flagalation(sp?).
It's OK to beat yourself but if some one lends you a hand its wrong?

Ths Spanish inquisition sure had some toys I'd give my left nut to own - if I had one, oh here's an extra.....

I've long held that Southern Baptist practice a male dominant form of D/s tho they might deny it -  traditional marriage vows do say love, honor and OBEY.   

Don't think it's so much about religions being against BDSM as it is as someone noted - people are.  Homozygeous zealots.  It's more comfortable for people in general, we all prefer and gravitate to our. "own" kind. US and them...  Like attracts like.  As "herd" animals we naturally respond to acceptance indicated by the validation and approval  of others.  Lone wolf's get labeled sociopaths....  

(most) People fear the unknown.  The "natural" animal instinct is to shun, drive off or even kill  those that are "too" different - percieved as a threat.  Tolerance/diversity acceptance is an acquired skill of the more highly evolved.  Still too many knuckle draggers out there... 


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RE: Some religions believe - 1/16/2008 9:53:54 AM   
OmegaG


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quote:

ORIGINAL: giveeverything

BTW.. good to see another recovering mormon on here.  Personally, I couldn't get out fast enough.  And getting out lent me a lot of room to explore my own moral codes, it's been an exciting ride ever since.


Yeah, but I had a lapse in judgement and got in when I was old enough to think.  It didn't last long

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Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable. Sydney J. Harris

Sex without pain is like food without taste.
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Profile   Post #: 129
RE: Some religions believe - 1/16/2008 9:56:55 AM   
Asherdelampyr


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From: The Desert
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyLolly

What about the christian sects that practice flagalation(sp?).
It's OK to beat yourself but if some one lends you a hand its wrong?

Ths Spanish inquisition sure had some toys I'd give my left nut to own - if I had one, oh here's an extra.....

I've long held that Southern Baptist practice a male dominant form of D/s tho they might deny it -  traditional marriage vows do say love, honor and OBEY.   

Don't think it's so much about religions being against BDSM as it is as someone noted - people are.  Homozygeous zealots.  It's more comfortable for people in general, we all prefer and gravitate to our. "own" kind. US and them...  Like attracts like.  As "herd" animals we naturally respond to acceptance indicated by the validation and approval  of others.  Lone wolf's get labeled sociopaths....  

(most) People fear the unknown.  The "natural" animal instinct is to shun, drive off or even kill  those that are "too" different - percieved as a threat.  Tolerance/diversity acceptance is an acquired skill of the more highly evolved.  Still too many knuckle draggers out there... 



Of course, if you beat yourself its sacrifice for God (or the solitary vise)
People were against doggie style for centuries, now look at it.
and I agree with everything you said (except I want to keep my nuts)

BTW most of the "tools" of the spanish inquisition can be made by a decent woodworker, try google to find some :P


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Profile   Post #: 130
RE: Some religions believe - 1/16/2008 9:57:01 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		Just because Lilith may have been incapable of reproduction (where is that written?) doesn't mean they never had sex.
Which they did.  Only way after eve came along.
Besides, the daughters in law are said to have come possibly from Liliths decent.
Plus Lilith is also have said to taken the punishment of 100 of her children a day to perish.
 
But hey - it's all metaphor anyhoo.
 
the.dark.

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Profile   Post #: 131
RE: Some religions believe - 1/16/2008 10:13:41 AM   
Justme696


Posts: 3236
Joined: 1/7/2008
From: Royal kingdom of the Netherlands
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

Just because Lilith may have been incapable of reproduction (where is that written?) doesn't mean they never had sex.
Which they did.  Only way after eve came along.
Besides, the daughters in law are said to have come possibly from Liliths decent.
Plus Lilith is also have said to taken the punishment of 100 of her children a day to perish.
 
But hey - it's all metaphor anyhoo.
 
the.dark.


lol good point 100 children without reproduction?


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RE: Some religions believe - 1/16/2008 10:21:14 AM   
Wheldrake


Posts: 477
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quote:

ORIGINAL: takenbyjohnr07

that it is against God to do any BDSM. Does anyone know why? Is it because of the sexual pleasure that they object to or is it something else? Thanks


As an atheist, I sometimes think God must be the ultimate dominant - an omniscient being who makes complicated and seemingly arbitrary rules, rewards obedience, and punishes infractions. He makes you get down on your knees when you talk to him, and if you don't do as you're told he'll send you off to be tortured eternally. He's capable of immense sadism (ask Job) and he rarely bothers to explain himself. Even if I were attracted to invisible men, I don't think I could ever belong to him, since I have hellfire as one of my hard limits. (A hot dominant goddess like Artemis, Hecate or Kali might be another matter.)

Conversely, I suppose a religious person might argue that BDSM is immoral because it allows a mere human to usurp authority that rightly belongs to [insert deity of choice]. After all, another one of God's traditional attributes is jealousy. From this point of view, the dominant partner in a BDSM relationship would be guilty of the sin of pride, and the submissive partner would be guilty of something like idolatry.





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RE: Some religions believe - 1/16/2008 10:22:38 AM   
FRSguy


Posts: 653
Joined: 9/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Asherdelampyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

quote:

ORIGINAL: FRSguy

As far as I know (which isnt much) they were considered married because they had sex.  In the new Testament a woman who was a whore was refered to as having many husbands and was told to return to her true husband which was her first.  So, the concept I was taught was that by having sex with a woman it, in a religeouse perspective, ment that the couple was married and was the only reference of what caused a man and a woman to be married as in there is no real mention of ceramony.  Now in the case of lilith it does not create a situation where Eve is a second wife.  This is because Adam and Lilith did not have sex because according to the Bible Lilith was incapable of reproduction ... humans could not reproduce until after Eve bit the apple so to speak which also kind of screws with the lilith legend later on in the legend with the Cane thing. Its not even certain if people even had genitals because there were no need for it, woman meaning only from man not different than man.



I gonna say this and then hide :P

So Females are bad .  The first 2 on Earth  were both sinners ( a score of 100% )    ;)


My mother always told me women are evil... :P




LOL, it actually get a lot worse than that... Because the method of division in early church was seen as a seperation from an original source with the end product being less than the whole of the original.  In other words they believed for instance that the Angels were seperated from God and with each seperation the Angel in turn would be less than (as in contain less of God) than the previousely created entity.  So if the rib was a phisical representation of that process Eve would be both less than Adam and less than Lilith.

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RE: Some religions believe - 1/16/2008 10:27:55 AM   
FRSguy


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Joined: 9/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

Just because Lilith may have been incapable of reproduction (where is that written?) doesn't mean they never had sex.
Which they did.  Only way after eve came along.
Besides, the daughters in law are said to have come possibly from Liliths decent.
Plus Lilith is also have said to taken the punishment of 100 of her children a day to perish.
 
But hey - it's all metaphor anyhoo.
 
the.dark.


lol good point 100 children without reproduction?



Yeah thats what I mean by it screwing with the rest of the legend.  The lack of reproduction is that if you read the punishment laid out by God.... reproduction is one of the punishments. Remember in some of the old legends it was the philosophy that Earth was created for the Angels and Man was created as the gardians of the animals that lived here (park managers) made half Angelic and half animals in order to acomplish this task.  There was no reason to reproduce.

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RE: Some religions believe - 1/16/2008 10:43:19 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FRSguy
LOL, it actually get a lot worse than that... Because the method of division in early church was seen as a seperation from an original source with the end product being less than the whole of the original.  In other words they believed for instance that the Angels were seperated from God and with each seperation the Angel in turn would be less than (as in contain less of God) than the previousely created entity.  So if the rib was a phisical representation of that process Eve would be both less than Adam and less than Lilith.


Hi FRSguy
 
I am surely not the only one getting confused.
Where in the 'bible' does it talk about Lilith being uable to reproduce?
Who are 'they'?
Where was reproduction a punishment.
Could you also list your sources/legends ?
 
Thanks in advance.
the.dark.

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love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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Profile   Post #: 136
RE: Some religions believe - 1/16/2008 10:45:04 AM   
Justme696


Posts: 3236
Joined: 1/7/2008
From: Royal kingdom of the Netherlands
Status: offline 		Amen

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Profile   Post #: 137
RE: Some religions believe - 1/16/2008 10:55:42 AM   
OmegaG


Posts: 1474
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FRSguy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

Just because Lilith may have been incapable of reproduction (where is that written?) doesn't mean they never had sex.
Which they did.  Only way after eve came along.
Besides, the daughters in law are said to have come possibly from Liliths decent.
Plus Lilith is also have said to taken the punishment of 100 of her children a day to perish.
 
But hey - it's all metaphor anyhoo.
 
the.dark.


lol good point 100 children without reproduction?



Yeah thats what I mean by it screwing with the rest of the legend.  The lack of reproduction is that if you read the punishment laid out by God.... reproduction is one of the punishments. Remember in some of the old legends it was the philosophy that Earth was created for the Angels and Man was created as the gardians of the animals that lived here (park managers) made half Angelic and half animals in order to acomplish this task.  There was no reason to reproduce.


In which denomination did you learn?  I'm not familiar with much of what you've talked about.

There were protocols for marriage in the bible, Mary was promised to Jopeph and awaiting the marriage when she got pregnant, Jesus turned water into wine at a wedding ceremony.

Labor pains were the punishment for eating the fruit

Lilith was never mentioned in the Bible as Adam's first wife.

And Paul was the one who really made women subservient.

_____________________________


Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable. Sydney J. Harris

Sex without pain is like food without taste.
- de Sade

(in reply to FRSguy)
Profile   Post #: 138
RE: Some religions believe - 1/16/2008 10:57:37 AM   
FRSguy


Posts: 653
Joined: 9/4/2007
Status: offline 		I dont think Lilith is actually mentioned in the Bible.  There were several books that were writen that never became a part of the Bible we use today and for really good reasons.  I've read most of them over the years so I am just pulling from memories of those. In one book it was kind of like a re-telling of what was in the Kink James version but it was really stupid because Adam & Eve are allways trying to comit suicide in it. Thats why I refer to them as Legends as in they were books writen a long time ago where I suppose someone tried to remove the discrepencies or something like that and made it up as they went along... which could somewhat be where we got the King James version.  Anyways when you read these everything becomes wild shades of grey so to speak and add to the confusion.  Lilith from what I understand is common to the Vampire stories and few ancient monster legends and from what I understand was worshipped at some point but the only reference I have found to her does not appear in the King James version but in the discarded versions. If you watch the Discovery channel they actually mention these a lot but Discovery tends to try to sell people on these books without actually mentioning some of the really weird shit that is in them like Eve throwing herself off from a cliff because she was so ashamed of what she had done but not being able to die because she was the only woman.  I use to collect odd works when I was a teenager... everything from books not in the bible to old witches black books  from colonial times to books writen by people that just tried to explain everything in the other books ...LOL. Like I said in my begining post I dont know much but that is more because I am pulling from memories from way back.... so to speak. I think the last one I read in passing was the Judas book which I didnt really find very impresive...lol

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 139
RE: Some religions believe - 1/16/2008 10:58:50 AM   
FRSguy


Posts: 653
Joined: 9/4/2007
Status: offline 		And ya gotta love that kink james version huh???....lol

(in reply to FRSguy)
Profile   Post #: 140
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