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RE: republicans slander John McCain and all veterans,in SC - 1/18/2008 1:09:02 PM   
subtee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

The double-standard is pretty bad...

How about how the Democrats bash Bush non-stop about how he dodged the draft. Yet Clinton dodged the draft and he's treated like a god by the Democratic party.


HUGE difference...Clinton didn't start a war.

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RE: republicans slander John McCain and all veterans,in SC - 1/18/2008 1:22:35 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

The double-standard is pretty bad...

How about how the Democrats bash Bush non-stop about how he dodged the draft. Yet Clinton dodged the draft and he's treated like a god by the Democratic party.

No.

I bash Bush because he used influence and money to get into a safe ANG squadron. By the very nature of the military that squadrons existence meant a little less of everything for the legitimate units and therefore it is an inescapable conclusion that GWB's fake service contributed to the deaths of my brothers in arms. For that and that alone I hate him. That he then failed to maintain flight status, cut and dried dereliction of duty which should have earned him a Court, just contributes to the depth and breadth of my contempt. Add onto that that he was also UA for some extended period for which he received not even NJP makes it impossible for me to look at the man and see anything but a priviliged rich kid who has had someone else clean up his messes his whole life and I personally resent that I and the rest of the nation will now spend generations cleaning up the mess he has made.

Clinton's one real bad act in avoiding service was his getting a deferment by claiming he was going to join ROTC. Not something to be proud of and it certainly kept him from getting a draft number for several months. The rest of his maneuvering was perfectly legal and widely used by others. Once he did get a number he was lucky and got a number that was unlikely to ever get reached but he did eventually have a draft card and number and could potentially have found himself in harms way. Things that cannot be said for GWB.

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RE: republicans slander John McCain and all veterans,in SC - 1/18/2008 1:26:50 PM   
cyberdude611


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

The double-standard is pretty bad...

How about how the Democrats bash Bush non-stop about how he dodged the draft. Yet Clinton dodged the draft and he's treated like a god by the Democratic party.


HUGE difference...Clinton didn't start a war.


Mogadishu and Kosovo must have been my imagination then.... We had no business being in those conflicts.

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RE: republicans slander John McCain and all veterans,in SC - 1/18/2008 1:37:08 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
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Status: offline 		Such convenient memory.

Somalia was started by Bush I. His administration was the one that denied the troops on the ground the heavy armor they requested.

Kosovo however was Clinton and has been a success. We're not taking casualties and both sides live reasoably peacefully.

Compare to Iraq where the surge is deemed to be working because the rate of insurgent attacks has gone down not ceased and Afghanistan where Bin laden and the Taliban remain and are rebuilding their power base. As a matter of fact the Taliban is actually conquering sections of Pakistan as I write this.

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RE: republicans slander John McCain and all veterans,in SC - 1/18/2008 1:42:36 PM   
thompsonx


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Status: offline 		Ladies and Gentlemen:
We are drifting off topic...this is a bash "Ace McCain" thread. 
Yes I realize all the rest deserve their time in the pillory but all this finger pointing is depriving "Ace McCain" of his alloted time on the whipping post.
thompson

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RE: republicans slander John McCain and all veterans,in SC - 1/18/2008 1:51:50 PM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		I personally have no problem with McCain service or his actions as a POW, beyond his having been in the air force that is. 

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RE: republicans slander John McCain and all veterans,in SC - 1/18/2008 2:06:20 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I personally have no problem with McCain service or his actions as a POW, beyond his having been in the air force that is. 

DomKen:
"Ace McCain" was in the navy not the air farce. 
As a POW he gave "aide and comfort to the enemy"...last time I checked that is a court martial offense.  He gave interviews to Cuban journalists.  There are numerous cases where POWs of less privileged birth were court martialed and given dishonorable discharges for far less serious offenses.
You should read his book "Faith of My Fathers" where he describes his behavior both at the academy and as a pilot.  A self confessed liar and cheat.
thompson

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RE: republicans slander John McCain and all veterans,in SC - 1/18/2008 2:20:59 PM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

It's absolutely disgusting. And I wouldn't discount the potency of these efforts; they certainly impacted John Kerry's campaign.


I agree. Many believe that the 'Swift-boat' lies is what did Kerry in. Modern politicing is still not close to what it was in the past.

Remember kinkroids, for a thriving Republic...there must be an opposition.

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RE: republicans slander John McCain and all veterans,in SC - 1/18/2008 2:48:35 PM   
master69dragon


Posts: 10
Joined: 2/9/2006
Status: offline 		because people forget. We can turn the page, switch the channel, or slander a hero. I spent 8 years in the Army Rangers and finally had enough. They give us medals for following orders but these poor soldiers are just pawns in a worldwide chess game. Currently Americans have it too easy (and yes I can say that because I have the purple heart and silver star). Hell, to my best knowledge, we are the only country in the world with diet dog food. Even our pets are fat.

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RE: republicans slander John McCain and all veterans,in SC - 1/18/2008 2:59:28 PM   
DomKen


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Status: offline 		I've read the book Thompson and don't remember anything that really stood out as a serious crime so why don't you detail what you think he did that qualifies as aid and comfort to the enemy?

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RE: republicans slander John McCain and all veterans,in SC - 1/18/2008 3:40:04 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I've read the book Thompson and don't remember anything that really stood out as a serious crime so why don't you detail what you think he did that qualifies as aid and comfort to the enemy?

DomKen:
Perhaps you might want to reread the book. 
Perhaps you do not feel that signing a confession to being a war criminal or chatting it up with Cuban journalist is a big deal but they are serious breaches of the "Code of Conduct".  There are numerous websites that speak to the tenor of "Ace McCain's" character.  I will grant you that they have their own "axe to grind for what ever reason.  That is why I refer you to his own autobiography.  Read his own words then, if you choose, search the net and do some of your own research.
If you read his book first and then read some of the "I hate Ace McCain" websites, their characterization of his ethical timber seems to follow his own admissions of his shortcomings.
If you know anything about carrier combat ops then you might also question his version of his "combat record".
thompson

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RE: republicans slander John McCain and all veterans,in SC - 1/18/2008 4:13:33 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		He signed a coerced confession, so what? That isn't giving aid and confort and considering the physical abuse he underwent to get him to sign it I think he probably should have given in earlier. He did refuse to return home out of order or to appear with anti war activists who travelled to North Vietnam. As to talking to reporters of any sort what's the big problem? Or is it that it was Cubans specifically that you have an issue with? I do notice that the interview with him by a french reporter that got aired in the US doesn't seem to stir your ire.

As to his combat record I'll dig out his book and see what he says about carrier ops that doesn't sound right but I'm pretty observant of details like that and I don't remember anything standing out.

But don't you worry yourself over me voting for McCain it won't be happening for other reasons.

(in reply to thompsonx)
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RE: republicans slander John McCain and all veterans,in SC - 1/18/2008 5:23:56 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

He signed a coerced confession, so what? That isn't giving aid and confort and considering the physical abuse he underwent to get him to sign it I think he probably should have given in earlier. He did refuse to return home out of order or to appear with anti war activists who travelled to North Vietnam. As to talking to reporters of any sort what's the big problem? Or is it that it was Cubans specifically that you have an issue with? I do notice that the interview with him by a french reporter that got aired in the US doesn't seem to stir your ire.

As to his combat record I'll dig out his book and see what he says about carrier ops that doesn't sound right but I'm pretty observant of details like that and I don't remember anything standing out.

But don't you worry yourself over me voting for McCain it won't be happening for other reasons.



DomKen:
How many of "Ace McCain's peers signed confessions?
How many of "Ace McCain's peers had chats with Socialist journalist?
I mentioned earlier and you seem to ignore is the fact that numerous other "POWs" were court martialed and given dishonorable discharges for less egregious breaches of the code of conduct.
I don't have a problem with Cuba or Castro.  I have a problem with a two faced fuck like "Ace McCain" waving the "Bloody Shirt".
thompson

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 1/18/2008 5:46:17 PM >

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RE: republicans slander John McCain and all veterans,in SC - 1/18/2008 5:33:20 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
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Status: offline 		The cocksucker wants "intelligent design" to be taught in our schools along side of evolution....The guy is a nut job.

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RE: republicans slander John McCain and all veterans,in SC - 1/18/2008 5:37:33 PM   
UtopianRanger


Posts: 3251
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Owner59:
All we need to know about "Ace" McCain is in his book "Faith of My Fathers" in which he freely admits to being a liar and a cheat.  He also freely admits to collaborating with his captors at the "Hanoi Hilton"
thompson



Hey Thompson. I thought I'd pop in real quick and deliver up a few comments before I roll outa here for the night....

Anyways.....I'm about 50/50 with ya on the '' Ace ''.   But I don't dislike McCain right now because of what he did/what happened to him while in a prisoner of war camp thirty years ago.

No....I don't like McCain because with the exception of Wudy and Hiliary, he's the only other candidate who---like Bush--- will continue to drain our treasury and deplete our resources, by committing us to this endless, preemptive war campaign.

And not to mention..... Every time I see his face or hear his voice, I feel like I'm watching Steven King's '' Dreamcatcher.''   With McCain being a cross between Morgan Freeman's character and the character known as ''Jonesy'' when he morphs into ''Mr. Gray.''


You’d have to see the movie…..


- R


[Mod Note:  over the top comment removed]


< Message edited by ModeratorEleven -- 1/18/2008 11:56:48 PM >

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-General George S. Patton


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RE: republicans slander John McCain and all veterans,in SC - 1/18/2008 8:57:54 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

The double-standard is pretty bad...

How about how the Democrats bash Bush non-stop about how he dodged the draft. Yet Clinton dodged the draft and he's treated like a god by the Democratic party.


He did dodge service in Viet Nam,as did Clinton.

Bush was also AWOL and tossed out of the military.
What was said about Bush`s lack of service,was in comparison to John Kerry`s actual service.

That`s why they did the swift-boat thing,to Kerry.

Because,..1. Kerry joined the Navy(unlike Bush`s line ditching,which put him safely into a NG unit).

And 2.Kerry commanded a fighting boat,and fought the enemy,taking shrapnel and winning battle fields citations.

And 3.He saved men who were in harm`s way,by exposing himself to enemy fire.

Bush flew a jet,one weekend a month,and two weeks a year,in Texas,and couldn`t even finish his term,because he refused to take a regular physical exam.

Kerry finished his tour.

There was absolutely no comparing the two men`s service.Hands down,Kerry`s service was much more impressive and substantial, and actual.

That`s why they attacked Kerry`s service(and all vets,btw)and belittled his achievements.The technique, was to attack the strengths of the opponent,with the most outrageous lies and innuendo.It puts them on the defensive and gets the media douche-bags, all sexed up and smelling blood.A bonus in Kerry`s case,was the attack totally obfuscated Bush`s lack luster military service.

The same techniques, are now being used by McCain`s opponents in SC.As they were used against him in 2000,by Bush in SC,by saying that McCain had an illegitimate black UM.The gist being,that McCain was fucking around with black women,when in reality,McCain had adopted her.

When the primaries are over,we will see those techniques used on the Democrats,in spades.

We`ll also hear the same, tired old bull shit,that both parties do these ugly things,from the naive,and from dishonest republicans.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 1/18/2008 9:02:30 PM >

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RE: republicans slander John McCain and all veterans,in SC - 1/18/2008 9:24:22 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

He signed a coerced confession, so what? That isn't giving aid and confort and considering the physical abuse he underwent to get him to sign it I think he probably should have given in earlier. He did refuse to return home out of order or to appear with anti war activists who travelled to North Vietnam. As to talking to reporters of any sort what's the big problem? Or is it that it was Cubans specifically that you have an issue with? I do notice that the interview with him by a french reporter that got aired in the US doesn't seem to stir your ire.

As to his combat record I'll dig out his book and see what he says about carrier ops that doesn't sound right but I'm pretty observant of details like that and I don't remember anything standing out.

But don't you worry yourself over me voting for McCain it won't be happening for other reasons.



DomKen:
How many of "Ace McCain's peers signed confessions?
How many of "Ace McCain's peers had chats with Socialist journalist?
I mentioned earlier and you seem to ignore is the fact that numerous other "POWs" were court martialed and given dishonorable discharges for less egregious breaches of the code of conduct.
I don't have a problem with Cuba or Castro.  I have a problem with a two faced fuck like "Ace McCain" waving the "Bloody Shirt".
thompson



So,a big tough guy,with tough talk and swagger,great.....

I bet I could get you to sign anything,do anything,say anything,given enough "private time",between you and I.

I`d have you crying for mommy, in no time.

If you seemed to be anti-bush,anti-neo-con,that`s only an unfortunate coincidence, and means absolutely nothing,given what you`ve said about John McCain.

What branch of the Armed Forces did you served in?Unit name and number,and the base where you did most of your service,please.

Something tells me you`ve never even broken a sweat,let alone served in the military.

You disgust me.

This is why I said,"it takes all kinds".

It`s true.

(in reply to thompsonx)
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RE: republicans slander John McCain and all veterans,in SC - 1/18/2008 9:54:03 PM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
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Status: offline 		I really have to disagree with the notion that Veterans criticising a specific Veteran for specific actions are atacking all Veterans.  I think that is just shrill nonsense, and typical of its source.

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RE: republicans slander John McCain and all veterans,in SC - 1/18/2008 10:16:08 PM   
HaveRopeWillBind


Posts: 514
Joined: 7/15/2006
Status: offline 		To be honest I won't be voting for McCain, but it has nothing to do with his time as a POW. It's because of his stand on illegal immigration.
No matter what some think of his POW experience I was also in the Air Force during the Vietnam era and during training we were all told that if captured it was not a question of "if" you would be broken, only a matter of when. At the Air Force Academy we were told that we were expected to break and talk. There was no suggestion that this was dishonorable in any way unless you failed to try and hold out as long as possible. We were flat out told that every pilot POW in North Vietnamese hands would be broken eventually. We were also given very realistic training in a simulated Vietnamese village where we were held as supposed POW's captured after a shoot down. In this "practice" scenario we were physically beaten, baseball bats to the face while having a pillowcase covering one's head so it couldn't be seen coming. I saw men in this training camp get burned with lighted cigars, others were hit hard enough to break out teeth, one friend had a blow to the lower back that ruptured his kidney. There were many broken bones. There was a lot more, some worse. This was all just a training scenario so you could be mentally prepared for what would be much worse if you were captured. It was training based on intelligence regarding the treatment of US prisoners in North Vietnamese hands. At the time I was going through this McCain was going through it for real. Anyone held under these conditions long enough would take a crap on the US flag if ordered to by their captors. I respect McCain for surviving the experience and getting home intact. Anyone suggesting he was traitorous while in captivity is speaking from ignorance of the actual experience. Let's not forget that McCain was there and put himself in harm's way for his country in the first place. How many of the other candidates have put their lives on the line for their country. I don't agree with McCain's politics, but that doesn't make him any less of an American hero.

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RE: republicans slander John McCain and all veterans,in SC - 1/19/2008 6:26:43 AM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

No matter what some think of his POW experience I was also in the Air Force during the Vietnam era and during training we were all told that if captured it was not a question of "if" you would be broken, only a matter of when.



Anyone who has ever served has been taught this. The goal is to make the enemy expend the most effort and resources to get the least possible out of you.

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