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RE: republicans slander John McCain and all veterans,in SC - 1/19/2008 8:03:40 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		Funny thing is McCain only signed the first of two confessions they wanted him to sign. He refused to sign the second one and they went back to torturing him. He never signed the second confession. Man can't reach high enough to comb his hair but he's somehow a coward and traitor.

I'm not voting for him for other reasons but I've now gone over his book again and see no problem with his description of carrier ops or any other aspect of his military service and do not have an issue with his behaviour as a POW. I also cannot find these others who were court martialed for similiar actions while POW's.

(in reply to Alumbrado)
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RE: republicans slander John McCain and all veterans,in SC - 1/19/2008 8:25:39 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

I really have to disagree with the notion that Veterans criticising a specific Veteran for specific actions are atacking all Veterans.  I think that is just shrill nonsense, and typical of its source.


It`s one thing, to criticize a soldier and/or make him(her) accountable for their conduct.

It`s quite another,to take the valiant service of heroic soldiers,and turn them into villains and cowards,decades later.

When someone denigrates the past service of good men,all people in the Armed Forces(and their service) are also denigrated.

Why should a GI do anything exemplary,if it will someday be stolen and used against him,by chicken-hawk cowards back in the states?That is the ultimate "knife in the back".

What happened to John Kerry and what is happening to John McCain now, at the hands of (his fellow) republicans,is beyond comparison and way beyond disgusting.

The natural disgust of this, keeps most people from doing it.Not this bunch.They can`t win elections on the merits.They can`t win without election fraud, without "going ugly" like Bush did w/ the "swift-boaters",without lying and cheating.That`s why they(the neo-cons) do it.They have to.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 1/19/2008 8:34:14 AM >

(in reply to luckydog1)
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RE: republicans slander John McCain and all veterans,in SC - 1/19/2008 8:41:23 AM   
HaveRopeWillBind


Posts: 514
Joined: 7/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
...The natural disgust of this, keeps most people from doing it.Not this bunch.They can`t win elections on the merits.They can`t win without election fraud, without "going ugly" like Bush did w/ the "swift-boaters",without lying and cheating.That`s why they(the neo-cons) do it.They have to.


Let's not forget that it was a group called "Vietnam Vets for Truth" that slandered McCain in 2000 and cost him the Republican nomination then by the same sort of attack on his POW record. Who founded and was behind that group? One John Roberts, who also was the founder of "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" and was rewarded for his efforts with a job as White House Attorney and eventually the job of Supreme Court Chief Justice.

(in reply to Owner59)
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RE: republicans slander John McCain and all veterans,in SC - 1/19/2008 9:47:30 AM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		owner, I don't think you have ever talked to a veteran.  Kerry has been hated by huge numbers of his fellow vets since his Winter Soldier testimony (that was attacking Vets in general, with vuage allegations, which you support), and his meeting with the North Vietnamese in Paris.  Kerry was only considered a valiant hero by the Anti War left.  Hard core POW MIA members are not big supporters of Bush and the Republicans.  They feel they were sold out by both parties, and have a personal hatered for Mc Cain for  (in thier eyes abandoning thier brothers).  Not that I concur, but they were the ones who got shot at, so I give them the consideration of having thier own opinion.  I can see how some would feel a huge betrayal by Mc Cain and the US gov giving up on thier brothers and friends

John Roberts had nothing to do with the SBVFT, I wonder why Have Rope wants to pretend so?

Kerry denigrated the service and charachter of our volunteer Soldiers, why doesn't that bother you owner?

(in reply to HaveRopeWillBind)
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RE: republicans slander John McCain and all veterans,in SC - 1/19/2008 10:31:35 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
The natural disgust of this, keeps most people from doing it.Not this bunch.They can`t win elections on the merits.They can`t win without election fraud, without "going ugly" like Bush did w/ the "swift-boaters",without lying and cheating.That`s why they(the neo-cons) do it.They have to.


I agree this kind of shit is ugly, unethical, and should not be tolerated. Didn't some of the MoveOn.org stuff bother you as well? You keep making it out that only republicans do this, when in fact humans of all shapes and sizes do this.

Another point about election fraud, didn't the supreme court state during all of that, that citizens did not even have a right to vote in a Federal election? That would mean that only the electorate counts on a Federal level. I agree that something needs to be done about voter fraud, because both parties have done unethical or even possibly criminal things.

Come on Owner, you are a smart guy, and I like opposing views, as it causes us to constantly examine our positions, but don't be a party cheerleader. It is going to take the American people to recognize the bad things that occur in both parties, if we ever want to change the political environment.

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to Owner59)
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RE: republicans slander John McCain and all veterans,in SC - 1/19/2008 11:01:31 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		I don't know about John Roberts but the fellow HaveRope is referring to sounds like John O'Neill who was involved in the 2000 attacks on McCain and is a founder of SBVFT and is a former hatchetman for Nixon. He obviously was never White House counsel or SCOTUS justice.

I'll ask this Orion, what did moveon.org do that rises to the level of illegally preventing 10K+ black men from voting as the bushies did in Florida in 2000? I'll need details and an estimates of how many votes were suppressed.

As a general response I'm not happy when a Dem is involved in fraud or stuff like push polling however I worked on the Dukakis capaign and saw first hand what happens when a candidate takes the high road in the face of determined mud slinging so I have no problem when a dem goes negative in response to GOP efforts and nothing from a major democratic candidate has come close to matching Roves actions on behalf of the GOP, SBVFT and the crap Chambliss used against Cleland being two that particularly disust me.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
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RE: republicans slander John McCain and all veterans,in SC - 1/19/2008 11:50:14 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		It's pissing down rain here today in Myrtle Beach, S.C., perfect voting weather.
And I won't be voting for John "Those jobs are gone forever, "Amnesty" McCain.
And I certainly won't be voting for Sen Lindsey "Amnesty" "I know better than you" Graham either!

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: republicans slander John McCain and all veterans,in SC - 1/19/2008 11:59:10 AM   
LifeAdventurer


Posts: 31
Joined: 9/17/2006
Status: offline 		Yet another good reason to vote Democratic.

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: republicans slander John McCain and all veterans,in SC - 1/19/2008 12:16:10 PM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		DomKen, I was pretty angry that the Dems attempted to throw out 50,000 Millitary ballots in Florida, in 2000.  And in Reality every questioned voter got to fill out a provisional ballot, no one was prevented from voting.

(in reply to LifeAdventurer)
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RE: republicans slander John McCain and all veterans,in SC - 1/19/2008 1:15:12 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline 		Anyone who promotes "Intelligent Design" to be taught in our classrooms is a knucklehead and should not be given the time of day or any further consideration....Who cares whether he was a traitor or not? The guy wants to suggest that natural selection is meaningless when compared to the will of God.....What a putz.

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RE: republicans slander John McCain and all veterans,in SC - 1/19/2008 1:31:45 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

DomKen, I was pretty angry that the Dems attempted to throw out 50,000 Millitary ballots in Florida, in 2000.  And in Reality every questioned voter got to fill out a provisional ballot, no one was prevented from voting.

You're simply wrong.

The Dems in 2000 tried to get all absentee ballots counted by the same rules. The GOP attempted to get votes counted by different standards than called for in state and federal law in counties likely to vote republican. That's vote fraud.
See this

As to the preposterous claim that illegally purged voter in 2000 could file provisional ballots that were counted, the law allowing provisional voting was passed after the 2000 election. Any even minor attempt to research the subject would clearly show that far more black voters who were documented to have registered and gone to their polling place with the intention of voting for Gore only to find themselves barred from voting by the incorrect purge than Bush's final margin in Florida.

(in reply to luckydog1)
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RE: republicans slander John McCain and all veterans,in SC - 1/19/2008 2:01:08 PM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		Dom Ken it is interesting that you state vote fraud, when the link you cite as evidence says,
" The Times study found no evidence of vote fraud by either party. In particular, while some voters admitted in interviews that they had cast illegal ballots after Election Day, the investigation found no support for the suspicions of Democrats that the Bush campaign had organized an effort to solicit late votes."

No, provisional voting procedures have been law in every state in America for over 150 years.  It is an old common practice, not something created after 2000.  Please cite a single person who was prevented from voting.

You are correct in a sense.  The Dems wanted all Absentee ballots counted exactly the same.  Including one from the Persian Gulf where through no fault of the Voters the mail did not get postmarked properly.  So the Dems demanded that those votes be thrown in the garbage.  Soldiers whose votes were late beause they were in a hot region being shot at, thrown in the garbage.  Put any lipstick you want on that, it sucks.

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: republicans slander John McCain and all veterans,in SC - 1/19/2008 2:09:09 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		Who was being shot at in the Persian Gulf in 2000? Also the law is the law and if absentee ballots arrived improperly for any reason they have to be thrown out or bias is entered into the process and that is vote fraud which is exactly what the GOP tried to do in 2000.

The law that allowed provisional voting in federal elections was the Help America Vote Act of 2002

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: republicans slander John McCain and all veterans,in SC - 1/19/2008 3:19:20 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline
quote:

Also the law is the law and if absentee ballots arrived improperly for any reason they have to be thrown out


Completely untrue... partisan interpretations of local election regulations do not trump federal law or the rights of citizens in the military. Those attempts to throw out military votes failed because they were fraudulent.



Key issues for the contestants in the 2000 Florida recount were how and whether military absentee ballots would be counted.25 On both issues, courts ruled in favor of overseas citizens and service members. In Bush v. Hillsborough County Canvassing Board,26 plaintiffs George W. Bush, Richard Cheney, and the Republican Party of Florida alleged that the defendant canvassing boards in Hillsborough, Okaloosa, Orange, Pasco, Polk, Collier, and Walton Counties rejected overseas absentee state ballots and federal write-in ballots based on criteria inconsistent with federal law. Plaintiffs requested that the court declare the rejected ballots as valid. Agreeing with plaintiffs, the court invalidated Florida's postmark requirement on overseas ballots, stating that, "any state statute that requires its election officials to disregard the oath provided on the ballot, by requiring an APO, FPO, or foreign postmark, conflicts with federal law."27 The court also relied on the Uniformed and Overseas Citizens Absentee Voting Act28 (UOCAVA) to pre-empt a state requirement that election officials must have a record of the voter's absentee application in their files before counting his or her vote.29

In another case regarding the fundamental question of whether to count military overseas absentee ballots, a Florida court again ruled in favor of overseas citizens and service members. In Harris v. Florida Elections Canvassing Commission,30 plaintiff electors challenged the counting of overseas absentee ballots received after 7 p.m. on Election Day. The court upheld the counting of overseas ballots for 10 days past Election Day. In doing so, it explained the historical rationale for the 10-day extension and made a distinction between the actual casting and counting of votes. The court stated that "overseas absentee voters, like all the rest of the voters, cast their votes on Election Day. The only difference is when those votes are counted. Thus, this case comes down to having very little difference from the typical voting and vote-counting scenario." Had the court decided otherwise by excluding from the count all overseas absentee ballots received after 7 November, the Gore/Lieberman ticket would have had an advantage of 202 votes over Bush/Cheney. The U.S. Court of Appeals for the 11th Circuit upheld the lower court, opining that:

We also observe that to read Florida's law as plaintiffs ask us to do would be a significant change in the actual election practices of Florida. While Florida law seems to favor counting ballots, this change would take away the votes of thousands of Florida citizens-including members of America's armed forces on duty outside of the country pursuant to the nation's orders-who, to cast their ballots, just did what they were told by Florida's elections officials.
http://www.roa.org/site/PageServer?pagename=law_review_109

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 1/19/2008 3:22:40 PM >

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: republicans slander John McCain and all veterans,in SC - 1/19/2008 3:30:15 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
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quote:

Who founded and was behind that group? One John Roberts, who also was the founder of "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" and was rewarded for his efforts with a job as White House Attorney and eventually the job of Supreme Court Chief Justice.


Do tell?  Got a link to back that up? 

(in reply to Alumbrado)
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RE: republicans slander John McCain and all veterans,in SC - 1/19/2008 3:32:49 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline
quote:

HUGE difference...Clinton didn't start a war.



If either party were in the right, why do their supporters need to make up patently untrue BS?


With enough rabid partisans ignoring inconvenient facts and reality, I suppose the parties can accomplish anything...

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 1/19/2008 3:36:00 PM >

(in reply to Alumbrado)
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RE: republicans slander John McCain and all veterans,in SC - 1/19/2008 4:01:27 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

Also the law is the law and if absentee ballots arrived improperly for any reason they have to be thrown out


Completely untrue... partisan interpretations of local election regulations do not trump federal law or the rights of citizens in the military. Those attempts to throw out military votes failed because they were fraudulent.

The law was enforced and legal ballots counted correct? How is my statement then incorrect? What was at issue here was a group of canvassing boards trying to be too strict in counting absentee votes not the shenanigans the GOP pulled to get improperly cast absentee ballots counted.

The NYT article I cited above found 680 questionable absentee ballots out of the 2490 received after election day that were counted. Of those 4 out of 5 questionable ballots were in GOP counties. According to the NYT all failed to adhere to either state or federal requirements and still got counted. That is quite clearly unacceptable and is very close to the final official margin in Florida in 2000.

(in reply to Alumbrado)
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RE: republicans slander John McCain and all veterans,in SC - 1/19/2008 5:14:26 PM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		Domken, in 2000 Us troops enforcing the No fly Zones in Iraq were being shot at.  American troops conducting bombing raids on Iraq for violations of sanctions were being shot at.  As well as the constant threat of simply being in the Gulf in range of Iranian Excocet missles.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: republicans slander John McCain and all veterans,in SC - 1/19/2008 5:25:32 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HaveRopeWillBind

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
...The natural disgust of this, keeps most people from doing it.Not this bunch.They can`t win elections on the merits.They can`t win without election fraud, without "going ugly" like Bush did w/ the "swift-boaters",without lying and cheating.That`s why they(the neo-cons) do it.They have to.


Let's not forget that it was a group called "Vietnam Vets for Truth" that slandered McCain in 2000 and cost him the Republican nomination then by the same sort of attack on his POW record. Who founded and was behind that group? One John Roberts, who also was the founder of "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" and was rewarded for his efforts with a job as White House Attorney and eventually the job of Supreme Court Chief Justice.


Good point.

One of the guys involved in producing the ad,is a long time friend and assosiate of Karl Rove.There was a direct link from the white house,to Swiftboat Veterans for Truth.

They tried to make it look like an independent group,working on there own,but that wasn`t true.Not even close to true.


http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/20/politics/campaign/20swift.html?ex=1250740800&en=7bf4b27a124c8daf&ei=5088

"Records show that the group received the bulk of its initial financing from two men with ties to the president and his family - one a longtime political associate of Mr. Rove's, the other a trustee of the foundation for Mr. Bush's father's presidential library."

http://www.pensitoreview.com/2006/08/27/swift-boat-bankrollers-in-trouble-with-the-feds/

During Mr. Bush’s 2000 primary fight with John McCain, the brothers backed a $2.5 million television ad campaign praising Mr. Bush’s environmental record in Texas and attacking Mr. McCain’s Senate votes. Until that point, it was Mr. Bush whose record had come under fire from environmental groups.

The ad’s sponsor was identified only as “Republicans for Clean Air,” a new group at the time…

“They should be ashamed,” [McCain] told a Boston audience on a campaign stop. “Tell ‘em to keep their dirty money in the state of Texas.”

…Two years ago, the brothers’ political activity again attracted notice when they contributed to Swiftboat Veterans for Truth, which sought to discredit Sen. John Kerry’s military service in Vietnam. Each contributed $10,000 to the controversial campaign that became one of the most acrimonious elements of the 2004 presidential race.

Sam says they decided to pay for the attack ads because, ultimately, they back their friends.

“It’s a kind of clan loyalty,” said Sam, who is proud of his Scottish-Irish roots
.
Before you get all choked up about John McCain’s valor, though, hang on. As always, McCain is more than willing to sell his soul to the highest bidder, as long as he won’t get in trouble for it.

Earlier this year, the Wylys’ relationship with Mr. McCain took a surprising turn. They each sent $10,000 checks to his political action committee and were set to co-sponsor a Dallas fundraiser on his behalf.
Mr. McCain said he bears no ill will toward the Wylys.
“I didn’t like what happened, but I’ve moved on,” he said. “I’ve put all that behind me.”
Still, after publicity about the Wylys’ newfound support, Mr. McCain’s campaign returned the contributions in May, citing a policy not to take funds from people under investigation. Republican Sen. Bill Frist of Tennessee also returned a Wyly contribution as the brothers came under increasing attention for their offshore trusts.

Don`t be fooled by the 1st thing that comes out of a crooks mouth.Of course Bush wanted to look clean,while his front group savaged McCain.Bush gets to look presidential,all the while,it`s he (and Rove)that`s behind all of the smearing.

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/president/articles/2004/03/21/the_anatomy_of_a_smear_campaign/

This is a good artical,showing another Rove front group,called(would you believe,lol) Veterans for Freedom.That Rove is one slick opperator,with his fake groups and their fake names.

http://www.prwatch.org/node/5077

(in reply to HaveRopeWillBind)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: republicans slander John McCain and all veterans,in SC - 1/19/2008 5:31:52 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		Just to be clear while we had US troops in the Persian gulf in 2000 none were ever under fire from what I can find. The Iraqis fired on US aircraft in 2001 not 2000. No matter though the fact is absentee ballots are supposed to be mailed long enough ahead that the sorry military postal system gets them where they're going on time.While I served I mailed mine in every election and to this day have no idea if any were actually received and counted. Those that arrived postmarked with US postmarks clearly weren't valid overseas absentee ballots but GOP lawyers got them counted. Read the whole article I cited above and try and tell me that the GOP isn't guilty of shenanigans from 2000.

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 60
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