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RE: From the bottom up - 1/19/2008 2:50:30 PM

MistressVnus

Posts: 1036
Joined: 1/4/2008
From: Central Florida
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quote:

Walking a mile in anothers shoes may let you know how the shoes feel, but it may not give you the same blister and it doesn't tell you how they deal mentally, physically, or emotionally with it if you do get one.

I really liked that analagy.
On the other hand, if you both walk the same mile with ill fitting shoes and you both get blisters....you're really gonna empathize with each other what those blisters feel like and what it took to endure the mile while the blister was forming.
I think Einstein's theory of relativity comes in to play here somewhere.

I feel like my examples may be lacking due to the fact that everyone is applying this "role-reversal" idea into their "specific" relationship instead of seeing it as "general" learning experience for the person.
In other words, perhaps the Dominant takes on this learning experiment and experiences a whipping that brings him/her to tears. I believe they will have understood what all that feels like and the process of getting there, regardless of the toy that induced it, or how it might be brought on "for you." However, when that Dominant finally takes someone else to that place of "tears" they might understand more omnipotently how vulnerable and open the subject feels.
Of COURSE each relationship is different, and everyone responds differently to different toys. And, many here have had the luxury of learning "together." However, if someone learns these lessons for themselves, PRIOR, to taking anyone to a certain place, perhaps they might be more confident in taking them there their first time around.
And of course, it isn't "essential." Just wondering if there may be more benefits than drawbacks.
Just kicking it around here.

_____________________________

In the ties that bind,
Mistress Venus
http://www.mistressvenus.com

"I'm not IN the lifestyle. The lifestyle is in Me!"

(in reply to SayaNereida)

Post #: 61

RE: From the bottom up - 1/19/2008 3:24:05 PM

mistoferin

Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressVnus
I feel like my examples may be lacking due to the fact that everyone is applying this "role-reversal" idea into their "specific" relationship instead of seeing it as "general" learning experience for the person.
In other words, perhaps the Dominant takes on this learning experiment and experiences a whipping that brings him/her to tears. I believe they will have understood what all that feels like and the process of getting there, regardless of the toy that induced it, or how it might be brought on "for you." However, when that Dominant finally takes someone else to that place of "tears" they might understand more omnipotently how vulnerable and open the subject feels.

I'm really not trying to be difficult, I do see what you are saying. However, I still have to disagree. I will use your scenario to attempt to explain. This Dominant is given a whipping that brings him to tears. Now you have to factor in the variables. Are his tears being caused by pain? embarassment? joy? cathartic release? Will he know what has caused his submissive to cry when he takes her there and be able to relate if he cried from pain and she cries from joy or cathartic release? Is he an extreme masochist and doesn't realize it? Will he expect his submissives to endure the same level of whipping because he endured it and possibly cause harm...or possibly see them as inferior because they can't? Is he possibly extremely sensitive to pain and it takes very little to bring him to tears? Will he know what to do when his submissive doesn't react the same way and needs much more? Will he hold back because of his own experience? Will that make him feel weak or inferior if that occurs?

I was at a play party once and I watched a scene in which a Dominant beat the living hell out of a submissive on the cross for a solid 45 minutes with a rabbit fur flogger. It was quite an incredible scene and the guy was giving it all he had, huffing and puffing and sweating and swinging. The submissive was writhing and screaming and crying in agony. The flogger came crashing down on her making these fluffy, poofy noises as it hit. She seemed to go into very deep space and had to be carried off the cross and didn't come back to the here and now for nearly an hour. As I sat watching that scene I thought to myself it surely must be some kind of joke. I wouldn't have reacted as strongly as she did if you were beating me with a bat. Now if that girl on the cross was a Domme who was trying out bottoming as a learning experience to help her better understand the perspective of a bottom in order to hone her Top skills, what on earth would she have learned from it that would help her be more skillful in topping someone like myself?

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to MistressVnus)

Post #: 62

RE: From the bottom up - 1/19/2008 3:59:54 PM

MistressVnus

Posts: 1036
Joined: 1/4/2008
From: Central Florida
Status: offline

quote:

The flogger came crashing down on her making these fluffy, poofy noises as it hit. She seemed to go into very deep space and had to be carried off the cross and didn't come back to the here and now for nearly an hour. As I sat watching that scene I thought to myself it surely must be some kind of joke. I wouldn't have reacted as strongly as she did if you were beating me with a bat. Now if that girl on the cross was a Domme who was trying out bottoming as a learning experience to help her better understand the perspective of a bottom in order to hone her Top skills, what on earth would she have learned from it that would help her be more skillful in topping someone like myself?

Perhaps she would have learned what "sub-space" was and what the effects of endorphines are all about. The symptoms of the body in endorphine overload, for example. The rabbit fur is almost a mute point to me.
However, your perspective is very reasonable and understandable.

< Message edited by MistressVnus -- 1/19/2008 4:02:17 PM >

_____________________________

In the ties that bind,
Mistress Venus
http://www.mistressvenus.com

"I'm not IN the lifestyle. The lifestyle is in Me!"

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 63

RE: From the bottom up - 1/19/2008 4:17:30 PM

SayaNereida

Posts: 152
Joined: 7/10/2007
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quote:

I feel like my examples may be lacking due to the fact that everyone is applying this "role-reversal" idea into their "specific" relationship instead of seeing it as "general" learning experience for the person. ... . However, if someone learns these lessons for themselves, PRIOR, to taking anyone to a certain place, perhaps they might be more confident in taking them there their first time around.
And of course, it isn't "essential." Just wondering if there may be more benefits than drawbacks.

I suppose I answered the way I did because I would, at this point, only be experiencing things with someone I was in a committed relationship with and therefore can/would only approach your 'plan'/thought in the form of 'role reversal'.

Do I think doing so might help me or Sir gain perspective/understanding of the others role?

No, not really because for us this is about us and how we can evolve/enhance each other, ourselves, as well as the relationship. Learning how another tops/bottoms may improve technique but we can do that together; with time, practice, patience, understanding and communication. For/to me, asking me or Sir to top/bottom another to learn technique would be akin to asking us to go have sex with someone else to learn technique; just wouldn't be able to wrap my body, head and heart around.

I believe, for us, the learning/exploring is something we should do together, even in moments of error success is found, if we are learning and evolving ourselves, each other and the relationship.

IMHO, it would be the same (or close enough) to being trained by one to prepare to serve another. (not that this is bad/wrong in general, but for me it is/would be)

Saya

_____________________________

Anais Nin: Love never dies a natural death. It dies because we don't know how to replenish its source. ...

(in reply to MistressVnus)

Post #: 64

RE: From the bottom up - 1/19/2008 6:06:24 PM

MistressVnus

Posts: 1036
Joined: 1/4/2008
From: Central Florida
Status: offline

quote:

even in moments of error success is found,

Oh, I agree wholeheartedly.
I think we've come to a concensus here that if one desires, and is learning "on their own" with no experience, this idea might be great. In order to prepare yourself for what is to come.
However, if you have the great priveldge of learning, together, with intimate "sharing" and steps, forward and back, it is just as impactful. From both sides.
This has been a very delightful exchange of ideas and perspective, for me.
And, there hasn't even been one sentence of animosty that I have seen on so many other threads.
That, in and of itself, has been ELATING!!
Thank you all, so much.

_____________________________

In the ties that bind,
Mistress Venus
http://www.mistressvenus.com

"I'm not IN the lifestyle. The lifestyle is in Me!"

(in reply to SayaNereida)

Post #: 65

RE: From the bottom up - 1/19/2008 6:11:53 PM

flowerinyourhand

Posts: 18
Joined: 8/31/2006
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My Master started on the bottom and as He said He would never subject me to something that He Himself had never experienced (as far as tools and such, not the head games). I found it comforting that He would do this and it helped me build trust in Him.

_____________________________

in service to HIM ever minute of every day

(in reply to MistressVnus)

Post #: 66

RE: From the bottom up - 1/19/2008 6:33:38 PM

MistressVnus

Posts: 1036
Joined: 1/4/2008
From: Central Florida
Status: offline

quote:

My Master started on the bottom and as He said He would never subject me to something that He Himself had never experienced (as far as tools and such, not the head games). I found it comforting that He would do this and it helped me build trust in Him.

Thank you so very much for that perspective. VERY MUCH

_____________________________

In the ties that bind,
Mistress Venus
http://www.mistressvenus.com

"I'm not IN the lifestyle. The lifestyle is in Me!"

(in reply to flowerinyourhand)

Post #: 67

RE: From the bottom up - 1/19/2008 7:01:54 PM

MadRabbit

Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: flowerinyourhand

My Master started on the bottom and as He said He would never subject me to something that He Himself had never experienced (as far as tools and such, not the head games). I found it comforting that He would do this and it helped me build trust in Him.

When I hear this ideal (which certainly isn't a bad one), I always wonder if the Masters who make this claim (and not picking on you or your Master) will...

Suck a cock?
Swallow male cum?
Take a face full of urine?
Be anally penetrated?

Then I tend to wonder how they experience the things that are physically impossible due to anatomy...

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to flowerinyourhand)

Post #: 68

RE: From the bottom up - 1/19/2008 7:41:15 PM

MistressVnus

Posts: 1036
Joined: 1/4/2008
From: Central Florida
Status: offline

quote:

Then I tend to wonder how they experience the things that are physically impossible due to anatomy...

Hey Dog,
Go back to OP and see if certain cross-gender experiences weren't already ruled out, obviously, due to impossibility. I believe it was there. And, she said, "regarding "tools" and such.
*sigh*
Well, you there goes my excitement about no animosity in this thread.

< Message edited by MistressVnus -- 1/19/2008 7:44:38 PM >

_____________________________

In the ties that bind,
Mistress Venus
http://www.mistressvenus.com

"I'm not IN the lifestyle. The lifestyle is in Me!"

(in reply to MadRabbit)

Post #: 69

RE: From the bottom up - 1/19/2008 8:57:06 PM

MadRabbit

Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressVnus

quote:

Then I tend to wonder how they experience the things that are physically impossible due to anatomy...

Well, you there goes my excitement about no animosity in this thread.

No animosity here. Whatever you want to interpret from my posting style is on your end. It was just some devils advocates thoughts and there was a point to them.

< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 1/19/2008 8:59:18 PM >

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to MistressVnus)

Post #: 70

RE: From the bottom up - 1/20/2008 12:37:29 AM

BitaTruble

Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressVnus

Which school are you from? Do you think a Dominant should start from the bottom and go through he steps that he/she will someday walk somenone else through?

I don't believe it's a matter of 'should', but if a dominant wants to do so, they are certainly entitled. There may be a future consequence to that decision, however, and they will need to be prepared to pay that consequence by taking such an action. There are any number of submissives who will never be able to view, as dominant, anyone who has bottomed for any reason even if it was 20 years ago for 5 mins.

quote:

Or, do you think it isn't necessary.

No, I don't believe it's necessary.

quote:

If you are learning a new skill, do you have someone try it out on you so you can see "exactly" what it feels like?

I try things out on myself to see exactly what it feels like 'to me'. I am well aware of the fact that what it feels like to me won't be what it feels like to another. However, I can still get a fairly good idea of where to insert needles to create a particular design I'm after, which way to turn my knife if I'm doing a cutting and need to do a corner, the knot which is most pleasing to the eye for a particular piece I might want to try and things of that nature. In my opinion, it's not all about the sensation that a particular activity might entail as there are many other issues which can factor into using yourself as a guinea pig, so to speak.

quote:

What about the "head games" that some wish to partake in. Should you have an excercise in that for yourself to comprehend the emotional/psychological intensity it can bring about? And, if so, how would you do that? Would you surrender yourself to another Dominant for a w/e of extended play to see how it can be, psychologically?

I don't believe a dominant will gain understanding from bottoming or 'trying to submit' for an extended weekend unless they already have an inate desire for submission. That sort of weekend, however, can bring something to the surface of which they may be unaware. At the same time, it can be one of those things which just make them roll their eyes, get pissed off and say 'never' again.

Over all, I'd say if it the idea appeals, then go for it. If the idea repels, then don't. There are no rules. :)

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to MistressVnus)

Post #: 71

RE: From the bottom up - 1/20/2008 1:11:27 AM

laurell3

Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AFlyInYourWeb

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressVnus

Thank you.
I have also found it a big plus for the other side as well.
My current slave is military and I don't have to do much worry about his attention to detail and having discipline to follow through with rules and rituals. The military eased my training of him in those respects FOR SURE. And, enabled us more time to head right into some of the other areas we both fancy.

But, he is deploying to Kuwait a the end of the month....*sigh* I will be forlorned. Again, another thread.

If you would, please convey to your slave my sincere "thank you" for his service to our country, and my hope that he has a safe return home.

Ditto from me as well.

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to AFlyInYourWeb)

Post #: 72

RE: From the bottom up - 1/20/2008 5:36:17 AM

MistressVnus

Posts: 1036
Joined: 1/4/2008
From: Central Florida
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quote:

I try things out on myself to see exactly what it feels like 'to me'. I am well aware of the fact that what it feels like to me won't be what it feels like to another. However, I can still get a fairly good idea of where to insert needles to create a particular design I'm after, which way to turn my knife if I'm doing a cutting and need to do a corner, the knot which is most pleasing to the eye for a particular piece I might want to try and things of that nature. In my opinion, it's not all about the sensation that a particular activity might entail as there are many other issues which can factor into using yourself as a guinea pig, so to speak.

I'm really with you on this part. It isn't necessarily what it will be like for "another" nor is it all about the sensation itself. It does help in making other observations about that type of play, or item. And, "any" observation, I believe, is learning somthing.

_____________________________

In the ties that bind,
Mistress Venus
http://www.mistressvenus.com

"I'm not IN the lifestyle. The lifestyle is in Me!"

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 73

RE: From the bottom up - 1/20/2008 5:41:24 AM

MistressVnus

Posts: 1036
Joined: 1/4/2008
From: Central Florida
Status: offline

quote:

No animosity here. Whatever you want to interpret from my posting style is on your end. It was just some devils advocates thoughts and there was a point to them.

Then the typed word has done it's notorious misrepresentation.
Thanks for clarifying.

_____________________________

In the ties that bind,
Mistress Venus
http://www.mistressvenus.com

"I'm not IN the lifestyle. The lifestyle is in Me!"

(in reply to MadRabbit)

Post #: 74

RE: From the bottom up - 1/20/2008 7:12:11 AM

kyraofMists

Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
While I agree that people experience things in different ways, I don't think the degree of difference between experiences is so wide that any experience on the bottom end is futile. I don't think there is such a huge variety of ways to experience a paddle that there is no common denominator and no way for any of us to relate or have some degree of a shared experience.

Yes, you still have to ask questions and come to an understanding of how exactly your partner experiences something, but unless a paddle feels like clamps for one person and clamps feel like a paddle for another, the information provided by experiencing your own toys still has some use.

For some people, bottoming may indeed be a good way to gain appreciation for a particular toy and what they can do with. Watching my Lord over the last several years, his main method of gathering information about a new toy is to test it on Alandra and me and then ask for our opinion and information on what it felt like. They perceptions that she and I have of toys are very different. It may be that she and I are so different in this aspect and that colors my perception on the usefulness of him knowing what the toy feels like.

Having been a bottom over the last several years, I do not have much appreciation about being a top and it did not really help me the time that he had me top someone at his direction. Feeling how hard I have been hit did not translate into how hard I could hit someone else. What translated, was him taking the toy and saying "do it like this" and then watching how hard he hit with that toy. That was when it clicked. It was fun as hell and I would love to play like that again with him.

Other people may learn differently and may prefer to experience something first before trying it themselves.

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to MadRabbit)

Post #: 75

RE: From the bottom up - 1/20/2008 7:28:00 AM

daddysliloneds

Posts: 1351
Joined: 6/28/2006
Status: offline

my belief is that the top tops and the bottom bottoms, and there is no way in hell that it's necessary, or even logical, to try getting to where you want, let alone try to understand how another person is going to be feeling, from trying it all out from the opposite side of the scale. no matter what, if you're a top and a sadist, for example, are you ever going to feel mentally, emotionally, physically, what a masochistic bottom, for example, feels...

if you're a top, and you want to gain a better understanding of how much damage you can do to someone and at what impact level, with a whip, cane, etc., then i see no problem with slapping yourself on the leg, arm, or what-have-you.

(in reply to MistressVnus)

Post #: 76

RE: From the bottom up - 1/20/2008 9:07:37 AM

LadyLolly

Posts: 140
Joined: 5/21/2005
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Much of what I know, I'd come to terms with and understood through extensive self analysis.  Finding the community solidified, filled in the gaps, provided a cohesive aha, bigger pictures - and more toys! Origionally I  resisted the formal styles. Guilty of ridiculing them (much as I see others do on here) , after all I didn't step out to a different drummer just to step in with another societies' "rules".

In time as I became more informed, educated and familiar - I got the point. Rather than re-invent the wheel - there was a history, a culture, generations and centuries of gathered knowledge that would enable Me to be a better Domme and Master myself. To the many friends, mentors and teachers willing to extend themselves - I will forever be grateful to them. Since name dropping is poor form - suffice to say they know who they are. I feel a continuing obligation/duty to pass on, teach and guide in kind to those desireing to learn.

I tend to rely on empathic connection not just technical skill and know how. Wanting to know, understand in order to be the best and all I can be - I have bottomed on a very few occasions (and I think they did sell tickets actually). The last was fireplay. I love fire and other than a few house and grass fires, all my experiences have been positive. The warmth, flickering - lovely.  So, I didn't "get" , couldn't imagine, what headspace would or might result from the experience. Actually experiencing it helped considerably in relating and transferring.

Not a submissive bone in my body but along the previous reasoning and due to close association with the leather community.  I chose to serve - briefly. Was not a good experience. Bound and helpless, the master (deliberately not capped) announced he intended to cross the line on a hard limit. I fully believed he intended to. There was nothing I was in a position to do that could stop him. Decided I would survive - he, however would not, and I told him so. Fortunately his slave interveined and I'm still a free woman and he's still breathing. This was someone I thought I knew well.
Did I learn something - absolutely. Much. Re-reading this, to avoid the wrong impression, should add such behavior is not condoned nor typical of the community.

We can all only offer from what we know and understand.  With few exceptions, until we are not only very knowledgable about something but comprehend it as well - we can at best only state that "I don't believe it's for me" not that something is wrong or absolutely unacceptable. (smile) I can remember when I didn't get S & M Had squelched that facet of my nature because it was "wrong" to hurt people, "nice" people didn't do that.  It time I came to understand if you learn your craft it not about harm but intensity.

For those that get hateful and hostile with a concept that dosen't "fit" them personally (at least at this point in time of experience, understanding and growth) - what are you so afraid of and threatened by?    A closed mind is like a closed book - neither will further education, understanding or growth. I'm still learning and hope always will.

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 77

RE: From the bottom up - 1/20/2008 10:40:46 AM

Evility

Posts: 915
Joined: 12/19/2007
Status: offline

Which school are you from? Do you think a Dominant should start from the bottom and go through he steps that he/she will someday walk someone else through? Or, do you think it isn't necessary.

I don't think it's necessary to bottom to someone to be a good top, but some experience from the other side of the spectrum can be a valuable educational tool.

If you are learning a new skill, do you have someone try it out on you so you can see "exactly" what it feels like?

I have done that. It's not an exact representation of what someone will feel when I am doing it to them, but it's close enough for jazz. I don't do it all the time. There are certain things that I love doing to other people that I have no interest whatsoever in experiencing for myself firsthand.

Would you surrender yourself to another Dominant for a w/e of extended play to see how it can be, psychologically?

Only if she would return the favor.

By no means does going through the steps yourself mean you are submissive.

Agreed.You should always clarify top/bottom from dominant/submissive.

(in reply to MistressVnus)

Post #: 78

RE: From the bottom up - 1/20/2008 4:06:18 PM

DaggerDom

Posts: 38
Joined: 1/1/2004
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I would never recommend any dom who said that he started as a submissive unless I knew him really well. All that he learned was his own reactions and those cannot be translated to another person. On the contrary, it is more likely to make him ignore such niceties as safe words figuring that if was able to take something everyone else should be able to as well.

The idea is pernicious and those who ascribe to it are usually dangerous.

(in reply to MistressVnus)

Post #: 79

RE: From the bottom up - 1/20/2008 4:13:05 PM

MistressVnus

Posts: 1036
Joined: 1/4/2008
From: Central Florida
Status: offline

quote:

Only if she would return the favor.

*chuckle*
That might make it worth it in and of itself. A delightful thought. Thanks.

_____________________________

In the ties that bind,
Mistress Venus
http://www.mistressvenus.com

"I'm not IN the lifestyle. The lifestyle is in Me!"

(in reply to Evility)

Post #: 80

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