From the bottom up (Full Version)

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MistressVnus -> From the bottom up (1/19/2008 5:40:43 AM)

Which school are you from?  Do you think a Dominant should start from the bottom and go through he steps that he/she will someday walk somenone else through?
Or, do you think it isn't necessary.
If you are learning a new skill, do you have someone try it out on you so you can see "exactly" what it feels like?
The exception to this, of course, would be a female learning cbt or a male learning torments for the female genetalia.
What about the "head games" that some wish to partake in.  Should you have an excercise in that for yourself to comprehend the emotional/psychological intensity it can bring about?  And, if so, how would you do that?  Would you surrender yourself to another Dominant for a w/e of extended play to see how it can be, psychologically?
Curious about other's thoughts and suggestions.



Justme696 -> RE: From the bottom up (1/19/2008 6:10:18 AM)

Mmmm  I had luck..I was guided by 5 slaves,sub,kajira's when i was 16 till I was 18. Then one of them became mine.
Not sure why they did that for me, but it thought me a lott.
I came in their chatroom and in time, they took me under their wings so to say. But yes..it is good to see both sides, although I am no where submissive.

I do let my girl, when I have one, teach/advise me in their views. That is how i learned about Gorean. Never to old to learn.

*edit*

now I reread your question..I don't know if you meant this



MistressVnus -> RE: From the bottom up (1/19/2008 6:16:47 AM)

By no means does going through the steps, yourself, mean you are submissive.  It is just an excercise for learning.
I don't want anyone to think I was implying that you have to "be someone's submissive" first. 
I remember one of my mentors telling me how his mentor made him go spend the w/e with a particular Mistress "as" a submissive.  But it was very temporary and was required of him to learn certain things.
I had to get a chuckle out of his story, however, as he explained that he "hates" to have his nipples touched and she ended up tweaking them frequently over the w/e.  Needless to say, he didn't enjoy the experience very much, however, he says he learned so many things that w/e that he probably wouldn't have learned, or would have taken years to grasp, otherwise.



RCdc -> RE: From the bottom up (1/19/2008 6:24:39 AM)

I do not believe one should have to start from the bottom up.  But if it works for an individual, then go with the flow.
I don't believe there is only one way to do something.  I am not a believer of black and white all the time.
Necessary depends on the persons involved.  I often seen this question asked, yet I never see the question reversed asked - as in - submissives should be dominant first/at some point.
 
Steps walked through are different for everyone anyway.
 
the.dark.



Justme696 -> RE: From the bottom up (1/19/2008 6:28:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressVnus

By no means does going through the steps, yourself, mean you are submissive.  It is just an excercise for learning.
I don't want anyone to think I was implying that you have to "be someone's submissive" first. 
I remember one of my mentors telling me how his mentor made him go spend the w/e with a particular Mistress "as" a submissive.  But it was very temporary and was required of him to learn certain things.
I had to get a chuckle out of his story, however, as he explained that he "hates" to have his nipples touched and she ended up tweaking them frequently over the w/e.  Needless to say, he didn't enjoy the experience very much, however, he says he learned so many things that w/e that he probably wouldn't have learned, or would have taken years to grasp, otherwise.


I know how He felt. I was correct in public by subs, in front of Dominants...sigh..females are cruell



fullofgrace69 -> RE: From the bottom up (1/19/2008 6:29:35 AM)

i think sometimes it helps a Dom to have experienced what they are going to do to a submissive, but i dont think its necessary. i know that for some Doms the very idea of surrendering to someone else wuld freak them out and then what are they going to learn. like everything else i think its subjective and all about what is right for that particular person



Justme696 -> RE: From the bottom up (1/19/2008 6:29:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

I do not believe one should have to start from the bottom up.  But if it works for an individual, then go with the flow.
I don't believe there is only one way to do something.  I am not a believer of black and white all the time.
Necessary depends on the persons involved.  I often seen this question asked, yet I never see the question reversed asked - as in - submissives should be dominant first/at some point.
 
Steps walked through are different for everyone anyway.
 
the.dark.


I have to agree..depends on the person, situations. Some mutual understanding can be nice though



bipolarber -> RE: From the bottom up (1/19/2008 6:40:37 AM)

I believe in learning as much as you possibly can. If that means experiencing some of these techniques firsthand, by having them done to you first, is entirely up to you. When I'm getting to know someone, a Dom/me, and they tell me that they know exactly what a particular whip, or paddle, or device feels like, then I'm a little reassured. (It sort of goes hand in hand with the phrase "I'll never ask a sub to do something I wouldn't be willing to go through myself.") However, I don't feel they need to go so far as to be someone's sub for "X" amount of time before they can call themselves "dominant."



MistressVnus -> RE: From the bottom up (1/19/2008 6:41:04 AM)

quote:

yet I never see the question reversed asked - as in - submissives should be dominant first/at some point.


That WOULD be an interesting idea.
Either way, it definately would require someone to step out of their comfort zone.
I have read some threads here where the submissive was asked by the Dominant to spank them, or some other topping activity, and they were extremely uncomfortable with it.
Do you think to do this, stepping out of your comfort zone, either way, would better edifty someone to understand what someone else might be going through when you are asking them to do something that is new, or outside of "their" comfort zone?
Or do you think that many can just grasp the dynamic instinctively?



GabrielleSlave -> RE: From the bottom up (1/19/2008 6:42:48 AM)

From my point of view i am grateful that my Master (many moons ago) had experience as sub to a Domme.  He understands so much more about where i go to because of it.  i believe He can guage how and when to push limits better in combination with His years of experience as a Master.  i also know that because He knows both sides, that this meant that i was able to trust Him quicker than may have otherwise been the case.  He has made me top Him a couple of times, and although He said i did a good job, i can appreciate even more what a huge responsibility it is and what hard work a scene can be both physically and mentally!!

Hope this helps some?




MistressVnus -> RE: From the bottom up (1/19/2008 6:46:18 AM)

quote:

before they can call themselves "dominant."


True.  You're either Dominant or your not.  Or, you switch, intrinsically.
There have been schools of mentorship that have, however, required it as one of the learning excercisse to acquire the "title" of Master/Mistress.



lauren0221 -> RE: From the bottom up (1/19/2008 6:54:07 AM)

I'm more concerned about who a Dominant is now than than the path they took to get there.



RCdc -> RE: From the bottom up (1/19/2008 6:56:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressVnus

quote:

yet I never see the question reversed asked - as in - submissives should be dominant first/at some point.


That WOULD be an interesting idea.
Either way, it definately would require someone to step out of their comfort zone.
I have read some threads here where the submissive was asked by the Dominant to spank them, or some other topping activity, and they were extremely uncomfortable with it.
Do you think to do this, stepping out of your comfort zone, either way, would better edifty someone to understand what someone else might be going through when you are asking them to do something that is new, or outside of "their" comfort zone?
Or do you think that many can just grasp the dynamic instinctively?



 
Personally I don't believe it would. Being submissive, I step outside my comfort zone all the time - I believe that is something I have submitted to when I give myself 'over' (as it were ) to Darcy.  Now, I can top -  I have learnt to top - but when I do so I am still submissive.  And I beleieve some submissive people have difficulty getting into the mindset that topping for a dominant is still a service and its one I personally can provide.  It's no different from giving good head or being able to cook a good meal.  When I do top, it doesn't make or cause me to understand where a dominants headspace would be whilst topping, because I am doing it from a submissive standpoint.  I don't believe many people understand that.

People react and have differing reactions to everything.  So when someone says to me, - say a kangeroo leather whip will feel great and they have experience of it I would say, fine - but that doesn't mean I will or that it will feel the same to me.  Domination and submission would be the same - different dependant on who is practising it from an individual POV.
 
*edit because I did not answer the last point

I do believe there are people who have enough empathy or 'mirrorsense' to grasp the dynamic instinctively.

 the.dark.



MissHarlet -> RE: From the bottom up (1/19/2008 7:02:33 AM)

I have over the years been contacted by what has been for me a surprizing number of Dominants ,15 -20, that wanted to submit to me.  Some just to see what it was like, others had a need and wanted discretion, others for their own reasons never to be learned.  It happens.   I know that 6 of them after sessioning with me and later submiting to me became full time submissives.  I think that the thought they should be Dominant as they were just that in their vanilla lives and it took a while to realize and accept where their true desires were. 

In my opinion it took courage to take that step.  I admit it made me uncomfortable at first to have them ask me to session them or to consider them as my submission.  I had to ask lots of hard questions of them and of myself.

Ultimately, I just chalked it up to a different path to get to where they belonged.



laurell3 -> RE: From the bottom up (1/19/2008 7:15:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressVnus

quote:

yet I never see the question reversed asked - as in - submissives should be dominant first/at some point.


That WOULD be an interesting idea.
Either way, it definately would require someone to step out of their comfort zone.
I have read some threads here where the submissive was asked by the Dominant to spank them, or some other topping activity, and they were extremely uncomfortable with it.
Do you think to do this, stepping out of your comfort zone, either way, would better edifty someone to understand what someone else might be going through when you are asking them to do something that is new, or outside of "their" comfort zone?
Or do you think that many can just grasp the dynamic instinctively?



 
Personally I don't believe it would. Being submissive, I step outside my comfort zone all the time - I believe that is something I have submitted to when I give myself 'over' (as it were ) to Darcy.  Now, I can top -  I have learnt to top - but when I do so I am still submissive.  And I beleieve some submissive people have difficulty getting into the mindset that topping for a dominant is still a service and its one I personally can provide.  It's no different from giving good head or being able to cook a good meal.  When I do top, it doesn't make or cause me to understand where a dominants headspace would be whilst topping, because I am doing it from a submissive standpoint.  I don't believe many people understand that.

People react and have differing reactions to everything.  So when someone says to me, - say a kangeroo leather whip will feel great and they have experience of it I would say, fine - but that doesn't mean I will or that it will feel the same to me.  Domination and submission would be the same - different dependant on who is practising it from an individual POV.
 
*edit because I did not answer the last point

I do believe there are people who have enough empathy or 'mirrorsense' to grasp the dynamic instinctively.

 the.dark.

 
Ditto to what the dark said...except the parts about Darcy (of course) [8D]   I don't think you can know what it is emotionally to be a submissive or dominant from merely topping/bottoming, but I definitely think it could have value.  I know many beliefs I had I found to be erroneous when I started switching.



MistressVnus -> RE: From the bottom up (1/19/2008 7:16:50 AM)

Let me say this before I go any further,  not preaching any "right way" to do things.  Just kicking the ball around for the sake of discussion.
I agree that some "get-it" empathically.
I've seen the spectrum, as well.
I've also seen some who couldn't get it if you pounded it into their heads with a brick.
And, I agree, everyone is different and learns things in different manners.
I do find, however, some credence in the "role reversal" technique, as well.
It's kind of like going to college.  You want a degree in something so there are certain classes you must take to get it.
Although you might not have an interest in a particular class, you have to go anyway.  And, if you stay openminded and not let the fact that you have to go get in the way, you'll probably learn things you wouldn't have otherwise.  Mainly, because you didn't have an interest to investigate in the first place.



RCdc -> RE: From the bottom up (1/19/2008 7:18:35 AM)

[;)]
 
the.dark.



RCdc -> RE: From the bottom up (1/19/2008 7:21:46 AM)

I ditto laurell that it can have value - and I do understand MistressVnus that you aren't pushing a certain way - like I said, I do believe if it works for someone then they should do it - it's like all things, take what works for you and discard the rest.
 
the.dark.



AFlyInYourWeb -> RE: From the bottom up (1/19/2008 7:24:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressVnus

Which school are you from?  Do you think a Dominant should start from the bottom and go through he steps that he/she will someday walk somenone else through?
Or, do you think it isn't necessary.



I do not think it is "necessary"; I do believe it is "desirable".

In the military, one must learn to follow in order to learn how to lead.  Even at West Point and Annapolis, future generals and admirals have to survive "Plebe Summer", where they spend several weeks being treated like the lowest form of life on Earth.

It isn't a fool-proof system. Not everyone learns the right lessons from this exercise, and anyone who has been in the Armed Forces can recount at least one horror story of a "ring-knocker" who wasn't a good leader. On the whole, however, the system produces generally competent leadership.

If a Domina reveals to me that at one point she subbed or bottomed, I consider it a plus, but the absence of such experience is not a negative.  What matters to me is her level of caring and competence NOW. 



MistressVnus -> RE: From the bottom up (1/19/2008 7:36:37 AM)

quote:

I do not think it is "necessary"; I do believe it is "desirable".


We have very similar thoughts on this.
And some of mine are based on my military training, too, as well as from having to take classes for degrees that I didn't necessarily want to take or have an interest in.
It's funny what we can find out about ourselves when we have to do things we didn't necessarily see a point in.
For example:  I remember in high school having to take a History Civilization class.  I HATED history.  I was so closed minded and disgruntled about having to go. It ended up being one of my favorite classes.  My preconceived notions about the class and myself would have prevented me from finding this out, or learning anything in this area had the decision been all mine of whether I thought the class was "for me."  This has actually happened several times in the course of my education.
I no longer "wince" at the idea of having to take a class, or trying to implement a suggestion someone has given just because I don't see the point........yet.
You know what they say...hindsight is 20/20.  *chuckle*




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