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RE: Iran evidently aspires to becoming the hegemon of t... - 1/23/2008 9:16:57 PM   
Stephann


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

On a seperate note, as I asked before, should everyone be allowed to walk around with fully automatic weapons, just because some do? There is a reason weaponry is limited. Do you feel comfortable with the current Iranian regime having those weapons, given their current stance towards Israel, and The West (which includes the EU) ?

Live well,
Orion


Tal Orion,

I fully believe that everyone should be permitted to carry around automatic weapons if they choose to do so.  Thus, the assumption is that everyone has automatic weapons; rather than just guessing that they might, or trying to arrest people on their way to the gun shop.

As for Iran, I'll restate my position; if we had invested those trillions of tax dollars into alternative energy sources (like, say, buying Venezuela, or researching hydrogen, or requiring everyone drive ethanol/electric hybrid cars by 2010) then it really wouldn't matter to us if Iran had nukes or not, would it?

It would have been cheaper to simply buy Iraq outright, in fact.

Stephan




_____________________________

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"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Iran evidently aspires to becoming the hegemon of t... - 1/23/2008 10:20:17 PM   
luckydog1


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Stephan, or perhaps Nukes in the hands of a failing nation, whose economy is based on selling a now worthless commodity would be more dangerous, than a strong state with a large steady income.  They would seem to be to be more dangerous as they fall apart.

(in reply to Stephann)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Iran evidently aspires to becoming the hegemon of t... - 1/24/2008 1:54:33 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Our soldiers are dying,(almost 4000 now) to secure oil fields,which only profit private,multi-national companies.

Our GI`s are stuck in the middle of Arabia,getting shot up bad,and taking casualties,for oil profits.Thanks firmhanky

Hey firmhanky,are you going to move to Dubai,along with Dick Chaney and the Haliburton Headquarters,after '09'?

We need American loving patriots to stay here, and to the neo-cons and the rest,good luck in Dubai.I hear that Sharia law, is a blast.


Nice try owner, but trying to classify yourself as a patriot, but me as the opposite because we disagree politically is an old socialist trick. Nice to see that you are staying close to your roots.

As far as the oil resources in Iraq benefiting only "private,multi-national companies" ... I guess you'd be happier if Saddam was still taking all the profits and spending them to build more palaces ... paying off suicide bombers' families ... and paying for the Mukhabarat torture chambers?

Firm




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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Iran evidently aspires to becoming the hegemon of t... - 1/24/2008 2:21:29 AM   
Real0ne


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One word: Absofuckinlutely!

I would feel much safer than I do now with HLS protecting me and cops that show up 15 minutes after the perp is gone and the dirty deed is done.   At least the neighbors could take the little bastard out if I couldnt.


quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Don't disagree with no one should have nuclear weapons, but the fact is they exist.

So should everyone be allowed to carry fully automcatic weapons in public?

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

No I do not believe they should have nuclear weapons.


quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Do you think Iran shouldn't have a nuclear arsenal?




Neither should you.



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"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

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Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Iran evidently aspires to becoming the hegemon of t... - 1/24/2008 2:26:05 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
As far as the oil resources in Iraq benefiting only "private,multi-national companies" ... I guess you'd be happier if Saddam was still taking all the profits and spending them to build more palaces ... paying off suicide bombers' families ... and paying for the Mukhabarat torture chambers?

Firm


damn reading that I had this picture of wealthy oil men in office who build torture camps in gitmo paying mercernaries and rape the treasury and funnel all the money to hallyburton and the rest of the gang!

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 1/24/2008 2:27:38 AM >


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Iran evidently aspires to becoming the hegemon of t... - 1/24/2008 2:27:10 AM   
luckydog1


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So owner thinks Sharia is law in Dubai as well as Iraq.....wierder and wierder....Though it does show the level of knowledge of the region held by some.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Iran evidently aspires to becoming the hegemon of t... - 1/24/2008 2:27:50 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Greetings NG,

I knew the "but the US is the only country to have ever used them" would come up. Would you say the situation that the US used them was much different than any situation that appears today?

On a seperate note, as I asked before, should everyone be allowed to walk around with fully automatic weapons, just because some do? There is a reason weaponry is limited. Do you feel comfortable with the current Iranian regime having those weapons, given their current stance towards Israel, and The West (which includes the EU) ?

Live well,
Orion



Israel has a military comparable in size to a large European state and has nuclear weapons so it can defend itself. Before people say Israel is a western democratic state and deserves to be defended by the west, it isn't a western state, it is a typical middle east state that has nationality based on ethnicity and religion and like its neighbours, regularly commits human rights violations. I can't quite work out the US's insistence on defending Israel and calling it is a beacon in the ME, considering Israel's behaviour but I guess the US's support of Israel has more to do with the US's vital interest than protecting Israel.

Either way, if one country has the moral right to nuclear weapons, all countries do. The US deciding who should and who shouldn't have nuclear weapons is an imperialist position, as is the US's military presence in the gulf which is antagonizing Iran.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 1/24/2008 2:29:33 AM >


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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Iran evidently aspires to becoming the hegemon of t... - 1/24/2008 3:08:12 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

So owner thinks Sharia is law in Dubai as well as Iraq.....wierder and wierder....Though it does show the level of knowledge of the region held by some.


Yup.

There was so much wrong in his post that I had to pick and choose, but excellent point, lucky.

Firm


_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Iran evidently aspires to becoming the hegemon of t... - 1/24/2008 3:53:00 AM   
luckydog1


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Welcome back Firm.  Play nice....

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Iran evidently aspires to becoming the hegemon of t... - 1/24/2008 5:32:07 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Nice try owner, but trying to classify yourself as a patriot, but me as the opposite because we disagree politically is an old socialist trick.

Firm



Capitalists beat socialists to every dirty trick in the book and still do. Without the psychopathic nature of ideological capitalism, there wouldn't even be socialism.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Iran evidently aspires to becoming the hegemon of t... - 1/24/2008 5:53:53 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Welcome back Firm.  Play nice....


hehe, I always play nice ...

And it nice to see 4 "Awaiting Approvals" in this one page of the thread already.

I think Mod 11 has finally gotten feed up.

Kudos

Firm


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Some people are just idiots.

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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Iran evidently aspires to becoming the hegemon of t... - 1/24/2008 6:11:20 AM   
kittinSol


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KY, doesn't that constant rictus hurt your jaws  ?

_____________________________



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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Iran evidently aspires to becoming the hegemon of t... - 1/24/2008 6:33:56 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

KY, doesn't that constant rictus hurt your jaws  ?




naaaaahh ... I find life pretty humorous, most of the time. 

Not that everyone always sees the same humor, though ...

Firm


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Some people are just idiots.

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Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Iran evidently aspires to becoming the hegemon of t... - 1/24/2008 7:17:27 AM   
Stephann


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From: Portland, OR
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Greetings NG,

I knew the "but the US is the only country to have ever used them" would come up. Would you say the situation that the US used them was much different than any situation that appears today?

On a seperate note, as I asked before, should everyone be allowed to walk around with fully automatic weapons, just because some do? There is a reason weaponry is limited. Do you feel comfortable with the current Iranian regime having those weapons, given their current stance towards Israel, and The West (which includes the EU) ?

Live well,
Orion



Israel has a military comparable in size to a large European state and has nuclear weapons so it can defend itself. Before people say Israel is a western democratic state and deserves to be defended by the west, it isn't a western state, it is a typical middle east state that has nationality based on ethnicity and religion and like its neighbours, regularly commits human rights violations. I can't quite work out the US's insistence on defending Israel and calling it is a beacon in the ME, considering Israel's behaviour but I guess the US's support of Israel has more to do with the US's vital interest than protecting Israel.

Either way, if one country has the moral right to nuclear weapons, all countries do. The US deciding who should and who shouldn't have nuclear weapons is an imperialist position, as is the US's military presence in the gulf which is antagonizing Iran.


Israel is one of the more powerful lobbies in US politics.  Politically, it's safe to 'support our allies' especially when they're in a dangerous part of the world.  Since WWII, there has been an American heritage of intervention abroad; no few people today believe that the rest of the world is so screwed up, that we must hold their hand to help them cross the street.  Thus, the influence Israel exerts on our politicians (financially) is easy money to take, with very little perceived commitment beyond what we already expect.

I would suggest that the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan had very little to do with Israel and a great deal to do with the Military-Industrial complex holding hands with our own domestic oil interests.  Nobody profited more from the invasion than American oil companies.

Stephan


_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Iran evidently aspires to becoming the hegemon of t... - 1/24/2008 7:59:45 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Greetings NG,

I knew the "but the US is the only country to have ever used them" would come up. Would you say the situation that the US used them was much different than any situation that appears today?

On a seperate note, as I asked before, should everyone be allowed to walk around with fully automatic weapons, just because some do? There is a reason weaponry is limited. Do you feel comfortable with the current Iranian regime having those weapons, given their current stance towards Israel, and The West (which includes the EU) ?

Live well,
Orion



Israel has a military comparable in size to a large European state and has nuclear weapons so it can defend itself. Before people say Israel is a western democratic state and deserves to be defended by the west, it isn't a western state, it is a typical middle east state that has nationality based on ethnicity and religion and like its neighbours, regularly commits human rights violations. I can't quite work out the US's insistence on defending Israel and calling it is a beacon in the ME, considering Israel's behaviour but I guess the US's support of Israel has more to do with the US's vital interest than protecting Israel.

Either way, if one country has the moral right to nuclear weapons, all countries do. The US deciding who should and who shouldn't have nuclear weapons is an imperialist position, as is the US's military presence in the gulf which is antagonizing Iran.


Israel is one of the more powerful lobbies in US politics.  Politically, it's safe to 'support our allies' especially when they're in a dangerous part of the world.  Since WWII, there has been an American heritage of intervention abroad; no few people today believe that the rest of the world is so screwed up, that we must hold their hand to help them cross the street.  Thus, the influence Israel exerts on our politicians (financially) is easy money to take, with very little perceived commitment beyond what we already expect.

I would suggest that the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan had very little to do with Israel and a great deal to do with the Military-Industrial complex holding hands with our own domestic oil interests.  Nobody profited more from the invasion than American oil companies.

Stephan


 
I think we are in agreement, American policy in the ME is imperialist and its support of Israel is all part of its imperial strategy.
 
It is that imperial strategy that so provokes Iran because it has suffered before at the hands of American (and British) imperialism.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to Stephann)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Iran evidently aspires to becoming the hegemon of t... - 1/24/2008 8:30:50 AM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

"If Iran shows up with a nuclear weapon at some point in time, the world is going to say, what happened to them in 2007? How come they couldn't see the impending danger? What caused them not to understand that a country that once had a weapons program could reconstitute the weapons program? How come they couldn't see that the important first step in developing a weapon is the capacity to be able to enrich uranium? How come they didn't know that with that capacity, that knowledge could be passed on to a covert program? What blinded them to the realities of the world? "


.....i'm sure that some people will say that or sommat similar. Others will merely note that Iran has the same capacity for blowing things up as the USA, Russia, China, UK, France, Israel, India and Pakistan.
Denying Iran the right to do whatever research they choose is safeguarding whose hegemony?

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Iran evidently aspires to becoming the hegemon of t... - 1/24/2008 8:35:36 AM   
Stephann


Posts: 4214
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From: Portland, OR
Status: offline
Meat,

Quite right.  Yet I'm not quite ready to paint the Iranians as the poor oppressed victims here.  If the US chooses to withdraw from Iraq, I expect Iraq to be swallowed in part (if not in whole) by Iran.  That we are at odds with Iran because we stepped on our crank, doesn't mean we're not at odds with them.

Western politicians are (generally) clueless and hopeless when it comes to Eastern ideology and politics.  The assumption that we're going to 'let freedom ring' from Iraq extends only so long as Iraq pumps oil.  There are plenty of other terrible dictators throughout the world that we don't bother with (a glimpse of Africa and Asia tells this story.) 

Stephan


_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Iran evidently aspires to becoming the hegemon of t... - 1/24/2008 10:58:53 AM   
thetammyjo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Do you think Iran shouldn't have a nuclear arsenal?

(Personally, I believe in decommissioning ALL nuclear weapons EVERYWHERE, but I'm a hopeless idealist. In the meantime, I don't see why Iran shouldn't have the capability to defend itself, because god knows that it's under threat.)


I fully agree.

Lord knows that the USA dislikes any other nation telling it what to do. Why does it think it should have the right to tell others what to do?

Also in reference to the OP title of the thread:

What else is new?

How many thousands of years has there been competition in the Middle East?

How about other places on the Earth?

At least the nations who are in the Middle East are actually there and not half way around the freaking world.

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(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Iran evidently aspires to becoming the hegemon of t... - 1/24/2008 2:10:47 PM   
NorthernGent


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Greetings Orion,

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

I knew the "but the US is the only country to have ever used them" would come up. Would you say the situation that the US used them was much different than any situation that appears today?



Yes, I would say the situation is different, but I'll add that it's irrelevant because the US government is bound up in such self-righteousness, that they're capable of doing it again (regardless of the situation being different). They do not respect other nations; there is no honour in bombing a place/civilians - it is bullying - that's the problem with the United States government: like all bullies and meglomaniacs, it's hard to tell where they'll draw the line.

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

On a seperate note, as I asked before, should everyone be allowed to walk around with fully automatic weapons, just because some do? There is a reason weaponry is limited. Do you feel comfortable with the current Iranian regime having those weapons, given their current stance towards Israel, and The West (which includes the EU) ?



Iran is not a threat to me. Just like Iraq, it's all bollocks - this may be short of a sterling argument, but it's all total bollocks all 'the same.

Governments have been using these same, old, tried and tested tactics for years, and they always work.......

Fear - we're all going to die!
Pride - these colours don't run.

Result - fall into line.

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Iran evidently aspires to becoming the hegemon of t... - 1/24/2008 4:51:36 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
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From: Dirty Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

So owner thinks Sharia is law in Dubai as well as Iraq.....wierder and wierder....Though it does show the level of knowledge of the region held by some.


I`ll refer you to my Post 40 reply.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

These are not for lucky,he`still in denial over being conned,by the neo-cons.



Iraqi Women Targeted by Campaign of Violence
http://abcnews.go.com/International/Story?id=3870202&page=1


http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=40510

Basra police chief Gen. Jalil Hannoon has told reporters and Arab TV channels that at least 40 women have been killed during the past five months in the southern city.

"We are sure there are many more victims whose families did not report their killing for fear of scandal," Gen. Hannoon said


http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,1890260,00.html

Abduction, rape and murder are the punishments for any woman who dares to hold a professional job. A month-long investigation by The Observer reveals the terrible reality of life after Saddam


New dark age for Iraqi women:


http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002172304_iraqpolitics06.html

"NAJAF, Iraq — With religious Shiite parties poised to take power in Iraq's new national assembly, leading Shiite clerics are pushing for Islam to be enshrined in the new constitution, governing such matters as marriage, divorce and family inheritance.
On other issues, opinion varies, with the more conservative leaders insisting that Shariah, or Islamic law, be the foundation for all legislation.
Such a constitution would be a sharp departure from the transitional law that the Americans enacted before appointing the interim Iraqi government led by Prime Minister Ayad Allawi. One focus of the U.S. effort then was to secure equal rights for women and minorities. Under Shariah, for instance, daughters would receive half the inheritances of sons"

"The clerics generally agree that the constitution must ensure that no laws passed by the state contradict a basic understanding of Shariah as laid out in the Quran. Women should not be treated as the equals of men in matters of marriage, divorce and family inheritance, they say. Nor should men be prevented from having multiple wives, they say."


http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/marshall200402190902.asp
The George W. Bush administration has welcomed statements by Iraq's senior Shiite religious authority, Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani, that he rejects the theocratic approach adopted by Iran's ayatollahs, in which religious authorities direct the entire government. However, it seems much less aware that Sistani and several other Shiite authorities are committed to ensuring that Iraq's constitution and legal system is based on Islamic law, as they define it, and that this poses major obstacles to President Bush's vision of establishing Iraq as a new paradigm of freedom in the Middle East.


http://www.cfr.org/publication/8034/#5
  • The constitution: Many Islamic countries acknowledge Islamic law in their constitutions by making Islam the official religion of the country or by stating that shariais a source--or the source--of the nation's laws. For example, Article II of the 1980 Egyptian constitution states that Islam is the religion of the state and "Islamic jurisprudence is the principal source of legislation." Iraq's interim constitution, passed under the U.S.-led occupation, makes Islam "a source of legislation" and stipulates that no law may "contradict the universally agreed tenets of Islam." The 1992 Basic Law of Saudi Arabia states that the nation's constitution consists of the Quran and the sunna, the actions and sayings of the prophet as recorded in the hadith. Article IV of the Iranian constitution states that "all civil, penal, financial, economic, administrative, cultural, military, political, and other laws and regulations must be based on Islamic criteria." And Article 227(1) of the Pakistani constitution reads, "All existing laws shall be brought in conformity with the injunctions of Islam as laid down in the Holy Quran and sunna ... and no law shall be enacted which is repugnant to such injunctions."
  • National law: Sharia has been also incorporated into Islamic national legal codes by decree or legislation. Depending on the country, sharia courts that oversee marriage and other personal law matters are headed either by a secular judge or by an Islamic judge called a qadi. In Saudi Arabia and Iran, supreme religious councils dictate how Islamic law is applied and, to a large extent, have veto power over legislation. In mixed religious-secular systems, such as in Egypt,sharia personal law courts are integrated into a Western-based legal system, and a secular supreme court has the final say, Brown says.


    http://frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID={F23015E4-9F97-4F22-A557-72B55B120D8B}


    Charles Krauthammer declared in October 2005: “The idea that it creates an Islamic theocracy is simply false. Its Islamist influence is relatively mild….No law may contradict Islam. But it also says that no law may contradict democratic principles and that the constitution accepts all human rights conventions.”
     
    Unfortunately, the intervening year has not been kind to this assessment. The Abdul Rahman apostasy case in Afghanistan gave a sobering indication that when the Sharia provisions of these nascent Constitutions came into conflict with “democratic principles” and “human rights conventions,” it was not Sharia that would fall by the wayside. The Iraqi government has thus far shown little interest in enforcing Sharia principles in Iraq, but it has also shown itself unwilling or unable, at least so far, to keep others from doing so – to the immense detriment of women and religious minorities in Iraq.
     
    The crisis for Christians in Iraq has become so severe that Bishop Thomas G. Wenski of Orlando, Florida, the chairman of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops’ Committee on International Policy, recently wrote to Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice on behalf of the USCCB, asking her to act to protect Christians and other embattled religious minorities in Iraq. “We are especially and acutely aware,” wrote Wenski, “of the deliberate violence perpetrated against Christians and other vulnerable minorities. Christians continue to decline from a pre-war population of over 1.2 million to a current estimate of about 600,000. The growing and deliberate targeting of Christians is an ominous sign of the breakdown in Iraqi society of civil order and inter-religious respect and represents a grave violation of human rights and religious liberty.”
     
    Wenski noted that “the recent beheading of a Syriac Orthodox priest in Mosul, the crucifixion of a Christian teenager in Albasra, the frequent kidnappings for ransom of Christians including four priests--one of whom was the secretary of Patriarch Delly, the rape of Christian women and teenage girls, and the bombings of churches are all indicators that the situation has reached a crisis point. The United Nations High Commission for Refugees estimates that approximately 44% of Iraqi refugees are Christian, even though they represent only about 4% of the total population of Iraq.” Christians are being victimized, and some even killed, for selling alcohol – which they are forbidden to do under Sharia law. Christian women have been threatened with death unless they wear the hijab, in accord with Islamic norms.


    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/03/AR2005080302035.html

    Iraq's new democracy will be crippled from the outset if the drafts of the country's permanent constitution being circulated are any indication of where things are headed. In a significant rollback from language in the interim constitution, known as the Transitional Administrative Law (TAL), current drafts would threaten regional stability and thwart stated U.S. goals of promoting freedom and democracy. They would establish a constitution under which dissent and debate would not be protected. As the deadline for a constitution approaches, the United States and the international community must redouble their efforts to ensure that an Iran-like theocratic state is not established in Iraq.
    Current drafts would limit Iraq's international human rights obligations to those that do not contradict Islam or Islamic law. They assert that an undefined version of Islamic law, or sharia , is the main source of law. They make no reference to freedom of religion or belief for every Iraqi, and they provide no guarantee of individual freedom of thought and conscience. One clause in the constitution would forbid any law contrary to sharia, leaving the door open for interpretations by unelected Islamic "experts" to be considered sacrosanct

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/iraq/2003/06/iraq-030604-rfel-164005.htm
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    The willful ignorance,and ability bend reality of neo-cons,has no end.

      Wouldn`t be cool,if all neo-cons and Bush policy supporters could be identified,and made to wear a "hijab",like women are(at the threat of death) in Iraq?
    That would be a just dessert,wouldn`t it,lol?

    Wouldn`t that be a goof?You could hurl insults and rotten vegetables,at the ass holes who drove into this ditch.

    Remember those dopey republicans, who colored their index fingers purple, in solidarity with Iraqi voters,after the phony election they held recently?

    I`d start with them.Hey,I can dream.....


     
     

    < Message edited by Owner59 -- 1/24/2008 5:13:58 PM >

    (in reply to luckydog1)
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