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RE: 935 lies: 3929 American deaths - 1/24/2008 8:34:42 PM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967
Do you really think the dead military members, or their families care if they died during battle, or training? I don't.

Nor am I a Bush supporter. I never voted for him, think he went in the wrong direction to prosecute the war on terror, and doesn't give a shit about whats good for the U.S.

The fact is that in any sample of 1.5 million people, the rough size of the US armed forces during the time in question, some number will die every year it is a statistical certainty. In 8 years 7500 died with only less than 50 coming in combat. Those deaths are certainly attributable to the POTUS as his order put them in harm's way in the same way that the 3000+ deaths in Iraq are due to Bush's decisions. So you can continue to try and make a difference of nearly 2 orders of magnitude be equivalent or you can admit that your source, Rush I think as he is the original source of the claim near as I can determine, steered you wrong.

< Message edited by DomKen -- 1/24/2008 8:35:28 PM >

(in reply to subrob1967)

Post #: 101

RE: 935 lies: 3929 American deaths - 1/24/2008 8:36:54 PM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

quote:

But to pretend it was made up is just not true.

I don't think I've ever asserted the claims were wholly fabricated.

The major prosecutable offense appears to be related to the lack of proper disclosure of the possible inaccuracies and lack of confirmation of many if not all the cited claims above.

Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld et al had a positive duty to FULLY disclose *ALL* the information they know about the data they were releasing, so that Congress and The People could properly deliberate a course of action.

You do NOT go on TV and say Atta/Iraq is confirmed when you *KNOW* that the assertion is based on an UNCONFIRMED sighting. That's criminal fraud in my book, and in violation of US Law. You don't lie to Congress about things they are deliberating.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to luckydog1)

Post #: 102

RE: 935 lies: 3929 American deaths - 1/24/2008 10:02:52 PM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

I always like to post these whenever the topic of WMDs comes up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gc1h1wg7LeQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i87cZ3Og6ts&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNgaVtVaiJE&feature=related

When someone posts vids that have no relevance,trying to mislead,like those,I like to post this one.

BTW, true believers,the vid is relevant,not 15 years old,or edited.

It`s Bush himself,admitting to failure,in his own words.
Check out the smirk,and condescending manner.Just like the chicken-hawks attempting to rewrite history,here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PGmnz5Ow-o

This is something ,that points to Bush knowing that Iraq did not pose a WMD threat.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1593607,00.html

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1663752,00.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Downing Street memo
This explains it a bit more,and links related events and acts,like the Plame leak ,and spreading bullshit stories like un-maned planes filled with germs, hitting the east coast.

"In October, 2002, a few days before the U.S. Senate vote on the Joint Resolution to Authorize the Use of United States Armed Forces Against Iraq, about 75 senators were told in closed session that Saddam Hussein had the means of attacking the U.S. eastern seaboard with biological or chemical weapons delivered by unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs)."

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 1/24/2008 10:15:52 PM >

(in reply to Level)

Post #: 103

RE: 935 lies: 3929 American deaths - 1/24/2008 10:40:31 PM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

Key False Statements

http://www.publicintegrity.org/WarCard/Default.aspx?src=project_home&context=key_false_statements&id=946

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 104

RE: 935 lies: 3929 American deaths - 1/25/2008 3:33:05 AM

Level

Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

I always like to post these whenever the topic of WMDs comes up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gc1h1wg7LeQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i87cZ3Og6ts&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNgaVtVaiJE&feature=related

When someone posts vids that have no relevance,trying to mislead,like those,I like to post this one.

But they are relevant.

My point is that bullshit exists on both sides of the aisle, whether that bullshit exists as lies, or ignorance. To think otherwise is its own form of willful ignorance.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 105

RE: 935 lies: 3929 American deaths - 1/25/2008 5:30:17 AM

FirmhandKY

Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

FR to everyone....

oh let's fuck

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to subtee)

Post #: 106

RE: 935 lies: 3929 American deaths - 1/25/2008 6:41:07 AM

subtee

Posts: 5133
Joined: 7/26/2007
Status: offline

Apparently this is what not to do when one is rather annoyed. [Sure would fix a lot about the world tho, no?]

My apologies...

_____________________________

Don't believe everything you think...

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

Post #: 107

RE: 935 lies: 3929 American deaths - 1/25/2008 7:44:52 AM

Muttling

Posts: 1612
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Muttling I am going out so have time to only adress your last point tonihgt, I will get back tomorow for the rest.

Me "Bush did not make up that Saddam was aiding terrorists (which includes more than just Alqueda and the 911 event) that was also the assertion of the Previous Administration."

Muttling "When exactly did the previous administration make ANY claims concerning the attack on 9/11. That occurred after the previous administration had left office."

Now I know you are way smarter than that. That is not what I am saying at all, you must intentionally be trying to misread it to avoid the point or something. Saddam was aiding terrorists, I named one example, I can give you more if you like. Terrorists are more than just Al Queda. You know that, your a smart guy. Clinton killed people and commited acts of war over Saddams gov's ties to Al Queda and Chemical weopons. Your a stand up guy, why don't you tell me about Al Shifa.

So your position is that Bush did not make his OWN decisions concerning Saddam Hussein and did not take into account the 3 years of data while he was in office. But instead relied on the decisions of Bill Clinton in his choice to "lead" us to war.

hmmmm

I'm not sure what scares me more, a president who ignores the most recent events to plow ahead with pre-determined choices or one who lets his predecessor make all of his decisions for him.

(in reply to luckydog1)

Post #: 108

RE: 935 lies: 3929 American deaths - 1/25/2008 8:22:07 AM

FirmhandKY

Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Muttling

So your position is that Bush did not make his OWN decisions concerning Saddam Hussein and did not take into account the 3 years of data while he was in office. But instead relied on the decisions of Bill Clinton in his choice to "lead" us to war.

I'm not sure what scares me more, a president who ignores the most recent events to plow ahead with pre-determined choices or one who lets his predecessor make all of his decisions for him.

I think there are two issues:

1. The US intelligence agencies have become bureaucratic, political and inefficient. In other words, unreliable, regardless of which party is in power,

2. That the "best intelligence" that Bush used was not much different than the "intelligence" used by a ideologically different administration, which tends to disprove the "Bush knew and lied" thesis thrown out by anti-Bush partisans.

However, any time anyone who understands this second issue mentions the Clinton administration, the "Bush lied" crowd goes into fits of "Why are you bringing up Clinton!?", and "A blow job isn't a war!" crap, trying to obfusticate the real issue - or, if not intentionally trying to cloud the issue, displaying an ideological blindness that discounts their ability to be dispassionate about real world events.

Which makes their judgment and pronouncements - at best - suspect, if not unreliable.

Firm

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to Muttling)

Post #: 109

RE: 935 lies: 3929 American deaths - 1/25/2008 8:54:20 AM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Muttling

So your position is that Bush did not make his OWN decisions concerning Saddam Hussein and did not take into account the 3 years of data while he was in office. But instead relied on the decisions of Bill Clinton in his choice to "lead" us to war.

I'm not sure what scares me more, a president who ignores the most recent events to plow ahead with pre-determined choices or one who lets his predecessor make all of his decisions for him.

I think there are two issues:

1. The US intelligence agencies have become bureaucratic, political and inefficient. In other words, unreliable, regardless of which party is in power,

2. That the "best intelligence" that Bush used was not much different than the "intelligence" used by a ideologically different administration, which tends to disprove the "Bush knew and lied" thesis thrown out by anti-Bush partisans.

However, any time anyone who understands this second issue mentions the Clinton administration, the "Bush lied" crowd goes into fits of "Why are you bringing up Clinton!?", and "A blow job isn't a war!" crap, trying to obfusticate the real issue - or, if not intentionally trying to cloud the issue, displaying an ideological blindness that discounts their ability to be dispassionate about real world events.

Which makes their judgment and pronouncements - at best - suspect, if not unreliable.

Firm

"That the "best intelligence" that Bush used was not much different than the "intelligence" used by a ideologically different administration, which tends to disprove the "Bush knew and lied" thesis thrown out by anti-Bush partisans."

That is only an opinion,and not supported by the facts.

The yellow cake bull shit story,the aluminum tube bull shit story,the Downing Street memo , cherry picking intel.,pulling the weapons inspectors out of Iraq before they were finished,scaring folks with words like mushroom clouds and WMD,etc.,etc.,all point to people making an active effort to mislead and deceive.

Not to people who are innocent and mistaken.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

Post #: 110

RE: 935 lies: 3929 American deaths - 1/25/2008 9:02:19 AM

Muttling

Posts: 1612
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline

This administration's consistent refusal to listen to dissenting views is what really scares me. Not so much "they lied" as they KNEW the truth and weren't going to let other details get in their way.

I'm not JUST speaking of Iraq, but a littany of other dumb moves.   They were specifically warned against hard lining with North Korea and totally fucked up the first 2 years of relations with them. They have since returned to patterns of negotiations similar to the Clinton administration and had far greater success in getting what they (e.g. the Bush administration) was trying to achieve.   I'm not talking about the what mind you, just the how and the tactics of dealing with North Korea.

In the run up to the Iraq war, the Australians and the Brittish repeatedly warned us that our plans for management of the country after the overthrow of the government were woefully inept. The administration ignored the warnings.

Since late 2004, the pentagon has been calling for a troop surge and they didn't get it until 2007. Guess what, it's actually working.

Does anyone remember the claim after claim after claim that things were getting better in Iraq despite all the statistics reporting otherwise???   All the table thumping claims that it was just the press making up the stories that things weren't going well through 2004, 2005, and 2006???

What about the claims of WMDs. When Bush finally admitted they didn't exist, he turned to a strategy of "But they could have restarted a proram."   WTF???   Are we supposed to demand they dismantle their entire petro-chemical industry and kill all their scientists so they can't restart? That would be the only way to achieve compliance with this justification for going to war.

And what about Guantanimo? Don't you recall Chenney's famous 2005 quote of "They got a brand new facility down at Guantanamo. We spent a lot of money to build it. They're very well-treated down there. They're living in the tropics. They're well fed. They've got everything they could possibly want."

How about Bush's 2002 justification as to why Saddam was a bad man, "After all, this is the guy who tried to kill my dad."

What about Tony Snow backpeddling on whether or not Cheney was talking about waterboarding in 2006 when he claimed we simulated drowning but that wasn't torture. His statement was, "You know as a matter of common sense that the vice president of the United States is not going to be talking about water boarding. Never would, never does, never will. You think Dick Cheney's going to slip up on something like this? No, come on."   Of course, we now know that water boarding is EXACTLY what Cheney was talking about.

The list goes on and on and on. This administration makes up it's mind and that's IT. Facts and reality be damned and has been badly bitten by the reality bug.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

Post #: 111

RE: 935 lies: 3929 American deaths - 1/25/2008 9:23:27 AM

FirmhandKY

Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

.............many complain about Bush, but accept similar "failings" from a ideological "friendly" administration.

It plays both ways, on either side of the ideological divide.

But refusing to recognizing it ....

.........the problem is that those on each 'side' fail to recognise that not everyone is also on a 'side'. Some of us just don't like incompetence, dishonesty or callousness in a politician. From whatever stripe of political opinion. However, when we point out deficiencies in one politician we are assumed to be defending their political opposite. This is not always true.
Aristolian logic is rarely useful for real world problems.

Sorry I missed this earlier, philosophy. Very true about Aristolian logic. I know I fall into that trap sometimes, and also know that I am almost without exeption seen through the prism of such thinking here on CM.

I don't like "incompetence, dishonesty or callousness in a politician" either, but think that sometimes (often times?) what one person sees as "incompetence, dishonesty or callousness" might not be perceived as such by another.

As well, all of these states are simply part of the human condition. Everyone is - in some situations, at some time, somehow, at some point - "incompetent, dishonest and callous".

Firm

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 112

RE: 935 lies: 3929 American deaths - 1/25/2008 9:32:54 AM

FirmhandKY

Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

"That the "best intelligence" that Bush used was not much different than the "intelligence" used by a ideologically different administration, which tends to disprove the "Bush knew and lied" thesis thrown out by anti-Bush partisans."

That is only an opinion,and not supported by the facts.

The yellow cake bull shit story,the aluminum tube bull shit story,the Downing Street memo , cherry picking intel.,pulling the weapons inspectors out of Iraq before they were finished,scaring folks with words like mushroom clouds and WMD,etc.,etc.,all point to people making an active effort to mislead and deceive.

Not to people who are innocent and mistaken.

This is opinion and not supported by the facts.

We can have a long, detailed discussion about intelligence if you wish, owner, but I think you might find that there are many such incidents during the previous administration (remember the bombing of the "aspirin factory"? Blackhawk down? Plenty more, if you'll just think and look).

Another aspect is that the increased US pressure was forcing counter-intelligence and disinformation activities out of other nation states, so there was an increased reason for "mis-information" (who actually made up the fake "yellow cake" papers, hmmm?).

Doesn't change the rhetoric and basic intelligence reports and conclusion over the previous decade: Saddam was a threat, Saddam was intransigent - not transparent - in handling the destruction of his WMD's, Saddam was involved in terroristic activities, or assisting same ...

The specifics may have changed, but the overall drum beat was not much different.

Firm

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 113

RE: 935 lies: 3929 American deaths - 1/25/2008 9:35:29 AM

FirmhandKY

Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

My point is that bullshit exists on both sides of the aisle, whether that bullshit exists as lies, or ignorance. To think otherwise is its own form of willful ignorance.

Bravo!

And an excellent point it is!

Firm

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to Level)

Post #: 114

RE: 935 lies: 3929 American deaths - 1/25/2008 9:40:02 AM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

.............many complain about Bush, but accept similar "failings" from a ideological "friendly" administration.

It plays both ways, on either side of the ideological divide.

But refusing to recognizing it ....

.........the problem is that those on each 'side' fail to recognise that not everyone is also on a 'side'. Some of us just don't like incompetence, dishonesty or callousness in a politician. From whatever stripe of political opinion. However, when we point out deficiencies in one politician we are assumed to be defending their political opposite. This is not always true.
Aristolian logic is rarely useful for real world problems.

Sorry I missed this earlier, philosophy. Very true about Aristolian logic. I know I fall into that trap sometimes, and also know that I am almost without exeption seen through the prism of such thinking here on CM.

I don't like "incompetence, dishonesty or callousness in a politician" either, but think that sometimes (often times?) what one person sees as "incompetence, dishonesty or callousness" might not be perceived as such by another.

As well, all of these states are simply part of the human condition. Everyone is - in some situations, at some time, somehow, at some point - "incompetent, dishonest and callous".

Firm

Everyone is - in some situations, at some time, somehow, at some point - "incompetent, dishonest and callous".

Funny how the "everyone`s a scoundrel" logic,always pops out of the scoundrel,when caught red handed.

Don`t look now,but you`re admitting to what you`ve been denying and disclaiming.

I think apologist, should be your next endeavor.Defending Bush, is like shoveling sand against the tide.

Note: I wasn`t referring to Firmhandky personally, as a scoundrel,but rather to all neo-cons in general.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 1/25/2008 9:46:24 AM >

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

Post #: 115

RE: 935 lies: 3929 American deaths - 1/25/2008 11:10:56 AM

luckydog1

Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline

Muttling so you are claiming that after Bush was elected Saddam quit giving protection to Terrorists who had killed Americans, and stopped paying per explosion in the Palestine/Isreal? Muttling, you know that isn't true. Playing stupid is beneath you.

Now as to your other points. Saddam did not get to decide how he wanted to dispose of stuff. The Cease fire dictated that. When you lose a war, you do not get to decide the terms. You know this.

The inspectors do not get to set the terms of the inspections. The UN does. The inspectors work for the UN. They are given a specific mandate. Report by a certain date as to whether Saddam has fully complied or not. The date came and Saddam had not allowed them to do thier work.
It is true that after over a decade of flouting the sanctions, Saddam "agreed" to let the inspections happen, the day before the report was due. He wanted more time and to push our invasion back into the summer, when it would be harder on us, and more US soldiers would die.

Muttling feel free to provide any relevant source that says Saddam was in compliance with the UN /Cease fire. We both know there are none. I can go dig up the Scott Ritter quote if you want to pretend you are not aware of it. Saddam was absolutly without question in violation of the sanctions. And saying Saddam was not in complaince is the truth not a lie.

Now Muttling why don't you tell me about Al Shifa. I am sure you are very aware of what went down, and why the previous administration did what it did.

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 116

RE: 935 lies: 3929 American deaths - 1/25/2008 11:14:21 AM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

........ so you are claiming that prior to Bush being elected Saddam was giving protection to Terrorists who had killed Americans.........
feel free to provide any relevant source ..........

por que?

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 1/25/2008 11:16:11 AM >

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to luckydog1)

Post #: 117

RE: 935 lies: 3929 American deaths - 1/25/2008 11:52:37 AM

FirmhandKY

Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Everyone is - in some situations, at some time, somehow, at some point - "incompetent, dishonest and callous".

Funny how the "everyone`s a scoundrel" logic,always pops out of the scoundrel,when caught red handed.

Don`t look now,but you`re admitting to what you`ve been denying and disclaiming.

I think apologist, should be your next endeavor.Defending Bush, is like shoveling sand against the tide.

Note: I wasn`t referring to Firmhandky personally, as a scoundrel,but rather to all neo-cons in general.

I think you are misrepresenting what I am saying.

scoundrel: villain: a wicked or evil person; someone who does evil deliberately

You are talking - and thinking - in the very Aristotelean manner that philosphy was talking about: black or white, good or evil, with nothing in between (correct me if I'm wrong philosophy

).

You see Bush and his actions as those of an inherently evil person. I don't. I see him as a normal human being, with strengths and flaws.

Your thinking has the flavor of absolutism, of faith and religion, of bigotry and intolerance.

Firm

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 118

RE: 935 lies: 3929 American deaths - 1/25/2008 1:44:14 PM

Muttling

Posts: 1612
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Muttling so you are claiming that after Bush was elected Saddam quit giving protection to Terrorists who had killed Americans, and stopped paying per explosion in the Palestine/Isreal? Muttling, you know that isn't true. Playing stupid is beneath you.

Now as to your other points. Saddam did not get to decide how he wanted to dispose of stuff. The Cease fire dictated that. When you lose a war, you do not get to decide the terms. You know this.

The inspectors do not get to set the terms of the inspections. The UN does. The inspectors work for the UN. They are given a specific mandate. Report by a certain date as to whether Saddam has fully complied or not. The date came and Saddam had not allowed them to do thier work.
It is true that after over a decade of flouting the sanctions, Saddam "agreed" to let the inspections happen, the day before the report was due. He wanted more time and to push our invasion back into the summer, when it would be harder on us, and more US soldiers would die.

Muttling feel free to provide any relevant source that says Saddam was in compliance with the UN /Cease fire. We both know there are none. I can go dig up the Scott Ritter quote if you want to pretend you are not aware of it. Saddam was absolutly without question in violation of the sanctions. And saying Saddam was not in complaince is the truth not a lie.

Now Muttling why don't you tell me about Al Shifa. I am sure you are very aware of what went down, and why the previous administration did what it did.

So now you're going from a mistaken bombing of a pharmacuetical plant in Sudan to a mistaken invasion of a country. You're not even close to reason dude.

The U.N. inspectors WERE repeatedly saying give us more time to bring about compliance and saying that our intelligence was wrong. They went to sites we told them about and found nothing. The Bush administration was hell bent on Sadam never complying regardless of what the inspectors were saying. They were saying he was making progress towards compliance. The nuclear inspectors were saying their work was all but done and we were hung up on the aluminum tubes, etc. saying it can't be possible.

(in reply to luckydog1)

Post #: 119

RE: 935 lies: 3929 American deaths - 1/25/2008 1:52:01 PM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Everyone is - in some situations, at some time, somehow, at some point - "incompetent, dishonest and callous".

Funny how the "everyone`s a scoundrel" logic,always pops out of the scoundrel,when caught red handed.

Don`t look now,but you`re admitting to what you`ve been denying and disclaiming.

I think apologist, should be your next endeavor.Defending Bush, is like shoveling sand against the tide.

Note: I wasn`t referring to Firmhandky personally, as a scoundrel,but rather to all neo-cons in general.

I think you are misrepresenting what I am saying.

scoundrel: villain: a wicked or evil person; someone who does evil deliberately

You are talking - and thinking - in the very Aristotelean manner that philosphy was talking about: black or white, good or evil, with nothing in between (correct me if I'm wrong philosophy ).

You see Bush and his actions as those of an inherently evil person. I don't. I see him as a normal human being, with strengths and flaws.

Your thinking has the flavor of absolutism, of faith and religion, of bigotry and intolerance.

Firm

The pile of bodybags ,is what makes all the difference ,here today.

It`s that, that pile bodybags grows,with no end in sight and with no accountability or responcibility.That`s what gets people pissed.

And the "to cute by half" excuse making and story telling by the neo-cons is enough to make anyone choke.

It isn`t going to hide the pile of dead bodies,or the wards and rooms full of maimed and wounded GIs,or console their families.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"You are talking - and thinking - in the very Aristotelean manner"

lol Nope.Your guy Bush ,is the good vs. evil guy, here.He also says that god told him to invade Iraq.

I`m only calling it as I see it.If it walks like a chicken-hawk,talks like a chicken hawk,looks and smells like a chicken-hawk,then I`ll call it a chicken-hawk.

As for Aristotelian thinking.....

Most republicans,all liberals and progressives,the US State Dept. and foreign services,the entire intelligence community,the military,teachers and medical people,the press (accept for Fox),knows that the world isn`t black and white,good vs evil,etc.,and that includes me also.

It was the neo-cons, that came of with the black&white,good vs. evil,"you`re either with us ,or against us", crap.

The "we gotta fight`m over there,so we don`t have to fight`m here",mentality,coupled with fear and hate of Arabs/Islam, is a neo-con state of mind.

Hey Firmhandky, heal they self,1st.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 1/25/2008 1:57:03 PM >

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

Post #: 120

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