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RE: 935 lies: 3929 American deaths - 1/25/2008 1:56:21 PM   
FirmhandKY


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Ya know owner .... I'm seriously thinking about not responding to you anymore until you fix that "comma-space" problem on your keyboard.

Firm


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RE: 935 lies: 3929 American deaths - 1/25/2008 2:02:48 PM   
Owner59


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Ya know owner .... I'm seriously thinking about not responding to you anymore until you fix that "comma-space" problem on your keyboard.

Firm



Bwahh! lol

I bang nails and cut wood for a living.I`m no writer.

You`ll excuse my grammatical failings.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 122
RE: 935 lies: 3929 American deaths - 1/25/2008 2:13:21 PM   
FirmhandKY


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Well, I can handle the grammar.  That's not the problem.  But that space bar of your needs some more work out.  It is very distracting.

In response to your previous post, above ...

1. Are you calling me a chickenhawk?

2. Please tell me what defines a "neo-con" in your mind.

3. We can talk about the utility of  Aristotelian thinking in politics, as a separate issue.

4.  No need to "Heal myself".  Nothing is wrong with me.

Firm


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RE: 935 lies: 3929 American deaths - 1/25/2008 2:45:22 PM   
FirmhandKY


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Someone else has taken a much more detailed look at the "study" that started this thread.

Not that I expect most "Bush lied" people to even click on the link, but *shrugs*  who knows ....

Study on Bush's Iraq Deception and Lies: Full of Deception and Lies

The headline-grabbing report released by two non-profits, Iraq: The War Card—Orchestrated Deception on the Path to War, charged that the Bush administration issued “hundreds of false statements” on Iraq. Bob Owens contends that the pseudo-scientific research is filled with “spin, false pretenses, cherry-picked statements.”

...

The FIJ and CPI researchers may have purposefully compromised the integrity of the report by creating the definition “false statements” and sub-categories “direct false statements” and “indirect false statements,” which seem to be predicated upon the ultimate veracity of the statements after several years of hindsight and study.

They did not, as it would seem to be fair, base the study upon what was known at the time in the 2001-2003 run-up to the war in Iraq. The premise for the report seems to be reflected in the title of the report, that there was orchestrated deception on behalf of senior Bush Administration officials, not statements made upon inaccurate or misleading intelligence information as events unfolded.

Comparative framing analysis suggests that this report purposefully constructed a point of view that encouraged readers to interpret the “facts” in a particular manner.

Dr. Jim A. Kuypers, an assistant professor of Political Communication and Rhetoric & Public Address at Virginia Tech University, is an expert in comparative framing analysis and is author of Bush’s War: Media Bias and Justifications for War in a Terrorist Age and A Comparative Framing Analysis of Embedded and Behind-the-Lines Reporting on the 2003 Iraq War, published in Qualitative Research Reports in Communication, Volume 6, Issue 1 October 2005.

Asked by PJM to comment upon the CPI/FIJ study’s stated methodology and definitions, Dr Kuypers wrote that the study was compromised by biases and prejudiced assumptions from the outset:

    The study does not appear to take into account the context of the time the original statements were uttered. Instead, it seems to start with an assumption that the administration deliberately mislead America to war. If the study had started with the assumption that the Bush administration and the intelligence community had misinterpreted intelligence reports, then these statements CPI collected could be interpreted in a very different manner. The study also fails to mention that a large majority in Congress, including top ranking Democrats, believed the intelligence assessments, and were briefed in more detail than the president about the situation. They still supported action against Hussein. It would be interesting to see the study enlarged to include statements made by those Democrats who voted for military action.

   Their “methodology” is short on detail, but I infer that they (who, how many?) actually performed a sort of “content analysis” using very broad categories: Direct false statements — “when [the administration] specifically linked Iraq to Al Qaeda or referenced Iraq’s contemporaneous possession, possible possession, or efforts to obtain weapons of mass destruction (chemical, biological, or nuclear weapons). In addition, any use of the verb ‘disarm’ was categorized as a direct statement because of the literal meaning of the word.” The other category, Indirect false statements—“Statements were classified as “indirect” if they did not specifically link Iraq to Al Qaeda but alleged, for example, that Iraq supported or sponsored terrorism or terrorist organizations, or if they referred to Iraq’s former possession of weapons of mass destruction or used such general phrases, for example, as “dangerous weapons.” These indirect false statements are not included in the total count of 935.”

   Essentially, then, someone (we don’t know who or how many) read through transcripts and speeches looking for quotes that would in anyway support the a priori belief that the Bush administration misled Americans.

   On the one hand, this looks like a sloppy study; on the other, the results do fall within the categories above, it is just the “spin” or interpretation put on them that causes one to wonder about motivation.

The “study” is based upon spin, false pretenses, cherry-picked statements, and artificial limitations to the breath of scope which excludes similar conclusions reached by the Clinton administration and Democrats and Republicans alike in both houses of Congress, and assessments from foreign governments.

The study’s “Key False Statements” page is as much an indictment of the lack of integrity from The Center for Public Integrity, and lack of independence from The Fund for Independence in Journalism, as it is an assault on the Bush Administration.

The CPI’s “Key False Statements” report stated, for example:

    In a speech on August 26, 2002, Vice President Dick Cheney flatly asserted that “there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction.”

   Central Intelligence Agency Director George Tenet later wrote that Cheney’s statement “went well beyond what our own analysis could support.” Tenet was not alone within the CIA. As one of his top deputies later told journalist Ron Suskind: “Our reaction was, ‘Where is he getting this stuff from? Does he have a source of information that we don’t know about?’”

As Dr. Kuyper notes in response, “Perhaps the question to ask is why did the administration believe so strongly that Iraq had WMDs? Instead, CPI contextualizes by paraphrase and citing an anonymous source. Alternatively, Cheney’s statement could have been framed as running congruent to many members of Congress and British Intelligence.”

Again, another erroneous “Key False Statement” from CPI’s study:

    In his State of the Union address on January 28, 2003, President Bush said: “The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa.”

   But as early as March 2002, there was uncertainty within the intelligence community regarding the sale of uranium to Iraq. That month, the State Department’s Bureau of Intelligence and Research published an intelligence assessment titled, “Niger: Sale of Uranium to Iraq Is Unlikely.” In July 2002, the Energy Department concluded that there was “no information indicating that any of the uranium shipments arrived in Iraq” and suggested that the “amount of uranium specified far exceeds what Iraq would need even for a robust nuclear weapons program.” In August 2002, the Central Intelligence Agency made no mention of the Iraq-Niger connection in a paper on Iraq’s WMD capabilities.

Note that President Bush said that Hussein sought uranium, not that a transaction or transfer had been completed. Seeking to complete a task and actually completing it are two entirely separate things. This statement by the President is in no way contradicted by the State Department’s Bureau of Intelligence and Research assessment, nor the Energy Department’s conclusion that no shipments arrived in Iraq. This simply was not a false statement—but it was yet more evidence of misleading allegations from the CPI/FIJ authors.

...

You get the picture.  Read the entire thing if you are interested in learning how not to be spun next time.

Firm

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Profile   Post #: 124
RE: 935 lies: 3929 American deaths - 1/25/2008 3:35:09 PM   
luckydog1


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Muttling "progress towards complaince" doesn't mean anything.  The UN gave a date.  The inspectors have no standing or right to rewrite thier mandate, whatsoever.  None, nada, Zilch.  Not a single one of them is on the record saying Sadaam was in complaince.  Not a single one.  My (and Bushes)contention that Saddam was not in complaince is 100% true, and backed up by the inspectors themselves.  And you know I am right.

And about Al Shifa.  You can characterise it as a mistake.  Bill Clinton and the people who ordered it, continue to assert they were correct.  And that Saddam was assisting in Al Queda production of VX gas.  It was even testified to in the 911 hearings by Cohen and Clarke.  Attacking Sudan in the middle of the night with no warning is an Act of War, no matter how you want to spin it. 
My assertion that Clinton killed people and commited acts of war over Iraqs Wmd behavior and links to Al Queda, and the proliferation of Chemical Weopons, is based on the actions of the Previous administration.  Not lies made up by Bush.

Muttling you are fully aware that at no time did Clinton declare Iraq to be in compliance.  No one ever did. 

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RE: 935 lies: 3929 American deaths - 1/25/2008 4:09:13 PM   
mnottertail


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Israel is afoul of many resolutions (as is Turkey and several other allies) in matters of compliance ................

so why the long face over Iraq, dude? how was this some sort of crisis, I watched Colin Powell's unrefutable proofs to the UN.............and found myself desiring something that might be unrefutable......

How is it that we swap spit with allies over these trivial genocides and various and sundry crimes, human rights violations and so on out of one side of our mouth and then say that Iran is asynchrounously an evil empire on the other?  How is it that there is  FEAR in the  US of  Iran's attempted hegemony of the area on our part, and now they have WDM, or are trying to get them and only an issue since we fucked up Iraq?  You don't think that much of Saddams posturing could be attributed to banty roostering with a very formidable neighbor that lives next door ...........

and so on, but you tell me how it shakes out.

Ron

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 1/25/2008 4:12:22 PM >


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RE: 935 lies: 3929 American deaths - 1/25/2008 4:09:16 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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" In a transcript of an intercom exchange recorded in March 2002, a voice positively identified as the vice president's identifies himself as "the Lord thy God" and promotes the invasion of Iraq, as well as the use of torture in prisoner interrogations. "

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/43189


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59


"You are talking - and thinking - in the very Aristotelean manner"

lol Nope.Your guy Bush ,is the good vs. evil guy, here.He also says that god told him to invade Iraq.



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RE: 935 lies: 3929 American deaths - 1/25/2008 4:21:15 PM   
mnottertail


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quote:

So now you're going from a mistaken bombing of a pharmacuetical plant in Sudan to a mistaken invasion of a country. You're not even close to reason dude.


Hold on there you dogs.........

If we have to accept that at the outset, Bush went in under idiot intelligence from the venerable CIA and Clinton fired them and did not fund them at the outset of his administration and I believe I am correct in the luckydog forwarding this sort of argument with cites, how then prithee, is this mistake to be taken out of more context than thelittle guffaw about weapons of mass destruction?

You can't (seriously) say any shit out here you want and not be called bullshit on....I mean c'mon  Clinton is a fucking hero of the conservative right because of this.....it has been settled such a proposal has been argued using different names.....this whole fuckoree is a series of unconnected events that have no bearing on world affairs, because they (the shitweasels that are not american) just don't get it, and if we keep at them (kinda like a woman bitching(with  death and destruction  from the sky added)) then they will finally understand the right of the thing.

Ron


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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 128
RE: 935 lies: 3929 American deaths - 1/25/2008 4:51:53 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

So now you're going from a mistaken bombing of a pharmacuetical plant in Sudan to a mistaken invasion of a country. You're not even close to reason dude.


Hold on there you dogs.........

If we have to accept that at the outset, Bush went in under idiot intelligence from the venerable CIA and Clinton fired them and did not fund them at the outset of his administration and I believe I am correct in the luckydog forwarding this sort of argument with cites, how then prithee, is this mistake to be taken out of more context than thelittle guffaw about weapons of mass destruction?

You can't (seriously) say any shit out here you want and not be called bullshit on....I mean c'mon  Clinton is a fucking hero of the conservative right because of this.....it has been settled such a proposal has been argued using different names.....this whole fuckoree is a series of unconnected events that have no bearing on world affairs, because they (the shitweasels that are not american) just don't get it, and if we keep at them (kinda like a woman bitching(with  death and destruction  from the sky added)) then they will finally understand the right of the thing.

Ron



Huh?

Anyone wanna translate?

Firm


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Profile   Post #: 129
RE: 935 lies: 3929 American deaths - 1/25/2008 6:14:41 PM   
Sanity


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quote:


(CBS) Saddam Hussein initially didn't think the U.S. would invade Iraq to destroy weapons of mass destruction, so he kept the fact that he had none a secret to prevent an Iranian invasion he believed could happen. The Iraqi dictator revealed this thinking to George Piro, the FBI agent assigned to interrogate him after his capture.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/01/24/60minutes/main3749494.shtml


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RE: 935 lies: 3929 American deaths - 1/25/2008 6:30:06 PM   
mnottertail


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not a bad rendering of the situation, Sanity----------

not the only one tho.

As I stated at the outset-------
I really don't give a fiddlers fuck whether it is right or wrong......we invaded, so how do we see it thru? 
And most importantly, whats in in it for me?
As an American, why the fuck do I care whether these fools play stick and ball with one anothers head, or who has hegemony in some dried up little piece of shit place in the world begging for rice and fucking boys?

They have nothing to offer and nothing to take, Tabago; on the other hand has a temperate climate and I could relax in the sun there in the winter.......

Who's vital interest is at stake here, if not mine?

Riddle me that.

Frank Gorshin


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RE: 935 lies: 3929 American deaths - 1/25/2008 6:38:45 PM   
farglebargle


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quote:

trying to obfusticate the real issue


Isn't the REAL ISSUE the enforcement of the Law?



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RE: 935 lies: 3929 American deaths - 1/25/2008 7:11:16 PM   
mnottertail


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law is a matter of correct spelling? sounds like lawyers, friend, sorry; not in for the long haul on that one.

Ron


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RE: 935 lies: 3929 American deaths - 1/25/2008 7:31:05 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

trying to obfusticate the real issue


Isn't the REAL ISSUE the enforcement of the Law?


Please, if you don't mind fargle ...

What is law?

What does it mean to you?

Is there anything higher than law?

Firm


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RE: 935 lies: 3929 American deaths - 1/25/2008 7:57:53 PM   
mnottertail


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perhaps, but not in the realm of politics.

at least not at the level we are delving into.

Ron

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Profile   Post #: 135
RE: 935 lies: 3929 American deaths - 1/25/2008 8:03:20 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

perhaps, but not in the realm of politics.

at least not at the level we are delving into.

Ron


Yup.

Philosophy, morality, religion ...

Firm


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Profile   Post #: 136
RE: 935 lies: 3929 American deaths - 1/25/2008 8:05:48 PM   
mnottertail


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religion? no................


The lost paradise is the world's dreamland of youth.

What tribe or people has not had its golden age, before Pandora's box was loosed?

And when the race lies crushed and groaning beneath an alien yoke, how natural is the dream of a redeemer, an Arthur, who shall return from exile or awake from some long sleep to drive out the usurper and win back for the people what they have lost.....

The doctrines of the Hindu avatar, the Hebrew Messiah, the Christian millennium, and Hesunanin of the Indian Ghost Dance are essentially the same, and have their origin in a hope and longing common to all humanity.

James Mooney


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Profile   Post #: 137
RE: 935 lies: 3929 American deaths - 1/25/2008 8:07:24 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Israel is afoul of many resolutions (as is Turkey and several other allies) in matters of compliance ................

so why the long face over Iraq, dude? how was this some sort of crisis, I watched Colin Powell's unrefutable proofs to the UN.............and found myself desiring something that might be unrefutable......

How is it that we swap spit with allies over these trivial genocides and various and sundry crimes, human rights violations and so on out of one side of our mouth and then say that Iran is asynchrounously an evil empire on the other?  How is it that there is  FEAR in the  US of  Iran's attempted hegemony of the area on our part, and now they have WDM, or are trying to get them and only an issue since we fucked up Iraq?  You don't think that much of Saddams posturing could be attributed to banty roostering with a very formidable neighbor that lives next door ...........

and so on, but you tell me how it shakes out.

Ron


Ron,

In reference to UN resolutions and Israel ... there are basicly two different types of UN resolutions. In effect, they are ones "with the force of law" and ones that are "the sense of the UN".

One it's a violation to ignore (like the ones Iraq ignored)

The other - like the ones against Israel - are advisory only.

Firm


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Profile   Post #: 138
RE: 935 lies: 3929 American deaths - 1/25/2008 8:19:32 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

religion? no................


The lost paradise is the world's dreamland of youth.

What tribe or people has not had its golden age, before Pandora's box was loosed?

And when the race lies crushed and groaning beneath an alien yoke, how natural is the dream of a redeemer, an Arthur, who shall return from exile or awake from some long sleep to drive out the usurper and win back for the people what they have lost.....

The doctrines of the Hindu avatar, the Hebrew Messiah, the Christian millennium, and Hesunanin of the Indian Ghost Dance are essentially the same, and have their origin in a hope and longing common to all humanity.

James Mooney

The Ghost Dance Religion and the Sioux Outbreak of 1890


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(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 139
RE: 935 lies: 3929 American deaths - 1/25/2008 8:35:56 PM   
mnottertail


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BULLSHIT.

There can not be two laws, one for the allies and one for the enemies there is only one.
This shit tires me, KainTuck......while I will try and understand your viewpoint, at this juncture, you are now to me, as I am to you talking to a wall, how is it that you see anything on your horizons like this, that is how can you seperate into any more than one right and wrong? This aint a paper tigers ass that we are separating to suck.........these are the people we live in the world with, and the political farce that you can force a nation, a segment of mankind for form an opinon foreign to them based on your true experience is plainly not a starter, now we are looking at having a 'presence' in Iraq, which as I said at the outset (and in fact Sinergy is in whole agreement with this) that if you wont wipe the fucking nation off the planet, you will have to waste your resources in controlling a section of the world society, that one, you can never control. a thousand years and we give it up and they do what they want, look at england and taiwan, and all we have accomplished and all that we have spent and all that we have pondered is for naught......so if the idea is to export our divinity to the world, I can only say fuck that, and for the 290 trillion or whatever spent, we could have built US, and that is the country I live in and the flag I pledge allegiance to, and dont really give a fuck about  exporting my political vision to the world when I  have cops that taser people for some slight to their person, and  whatnot.  I work goddamn hard for my money, and I dont want it spent on these pecadillos when there are kids that die of malnutrition or basic health under the goddamn flag I fought to  persevere --------

So, to answer the age old question, I am not my brothers keeper, but by god, I will lay a dollar down to keep him, far more happily, than I will to  keep a bunch of asswipe that is not people. Ideals are not reality.

You may follow your own course, but as for me and my house, we stand for our right, our liberty, our pursuit of happiness and will shine a buck to these motherfuckers, have we a spare one, but will not enlighten them with our brand of nothingness.

Ron




_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 140
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