On Abortion: Is a fetus human? (Full Version)

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CuriousLord -> On Abortion: Is a fetus human? (1/23/2008 10:17:37 PM)

Abortion debates often come down to, "Is a fetus human?"  This leads to indecision, and the spectacle leaves me exasperated.  So let's talk about it.

Words aren't set in stone, and being "human" isn't some kind of universal truth.  Our DNA is highly similar.. but it varies.  Fortunately for our simplistic notions of life, it doesn't vary continuously.

Point being.. back when white people enslaved black people from Africa here in America.  Their argument is, "They're not human!"  And, in their narrow definition of humanity.. they were correct.  (Their definition, of course, being what we might call "white humans" today.)

But what if we lived in a world where creatures continuously varied in DNA and features?  Right now, when we say "human", it's easy enough to make a cut off.  Any human you pick will have DNA that is in such and such a manner similar to any other's.. and then, at some point, it's not any different.  To make an example, let's say DNA is hypothetically represented by this short series of characters:

asfas3325235asdfasdfafds5234ok  Is a pure-blooded Irish man.
asfas3325235asdfasdfafds5234ol   Is a pure-blooded Irish woman.
asfas3325235asdfasdfafdt5234ok  Is a pure-blooded African man.
asfas3325235asdfasdfafdt5234ol   Is a pure-blooded African woman.
asfas3325235asdfasdfafdt12  Is a pig.
asfas3325235asdfasdfa2  Is a worm.
asfas33252  Is a complex single-celled organism.
asfa1  Is a simple single-celled organism.
a1  Is a virus.

It's pretty easy, if you examine a asfas3325235asdfasdfafdt51235ok, to call it human.  It's a rather slight deviation.. maybe has a third arm or something, but you can see it as being human, right?  Since DNA actually has far more components than the strings of characters I provided, we can also consider something with even smaller variations are human.  Now what about a asfas3325235asdfasdfafasddt5234ok?  Or a asfas3325235asdfasdf234234afaaaasddt5234ok?  Or a asfas3325235asdfasdfafasddt5234okasdf12as?  At what point does it vary enough that you no longer consider it human?  At what point is a creature different enough to not be human?  When it has four arms, but is otherwise normal?  How differently must it think, act, reason?  As, surely, we all have variation, but to what extent is it no longer human?


It strikes me that arbitrarily classifying as "human" vs. "not human" is not a valid, congruent system of morality.  Rather, it's prone to interpretation and seems to be flawed in its very concept.

So, if we can't just call something human or not, then how do we approach it?  Well, why does being human even matter in the first place?  This answer may vary among people, and others are free to address it, but I feel it's largely because each of us is human and it's necessary for our mutual survival and our empathy to accept others in this category.. we see ourselves in others similar to us.  (Then, I must acknowledge that many people just learn humans have value without understanding the reasoning why.  However, to consider the follower's "I was told so" reasoning does little for earnest contemplation.)

This also suggests a more continuous, congruent view of things more similar to one's self being more "human".  This also goes hand-in-hand with our natural view, as we see those more like as.. those we can empathize with.. as more human.


My philosophical bit taking a break to be applied.. we can see this as valid in the abortion debate.

Is a fetus human?  Well, it's not immediately human.. because, well, it's not extremely like me.  I can still empathize with it, though, to some degree, knowing I was once one and that it may someday be like me, able to feel love, pain, etc.  It's simple minded now, but so are newborns who know nothing.. and I still see them as human.

But it's also different.  It's not fully developed (particularly true if it's an early fetus as opposed to a late one), it's not able to think like I do, it's world still consists of living inside of its mother.

So does it deserve values I associate with those who are colloquially considered to be human?

There's no generally accepted pre-existing answer, so we have to derive one.  The semi-human aspect of it suggests that it has human rights to some lesser degree.  Now, does this mean it has almost all of an adult human's rights, or does it have very basic, pretty ignorable rights, or somewhere in between?

Personally, I haven't answered this question yet to my own satisfaction.  My working guess is along the lines of, "It has the right to life, but not to the same extent as an adult human."


What do others think?

Please, think first.
 
 
PS-  I've been using the example of DNA and differences caused by different types of DNA as one sort of difference things can have.  It is not, however, the only difference or consideration by any means.  My point was to show that picking something of some arbitrary difference strikes me as rather silly.




Stephann -> RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? (1/23/2008 10:23:31 PM)

CL,

As a hypothosis, would you consider a cloned embryo human?  What if the genes are slightly altered so as not to have the capacity for emotions?  The DNA taken from an arm kept artificially alive would also, by your definition, be 'human.'  While being a human arm, it certainly doesn't seem to classify as being human.

The real question isn't one of 'where does life start or end.'  The real question is 'should we force mothers who don't want their children to give birth anyway?'  In a perfect society, I would like to say "Yes."  As is, abortion is an imperfect solution, to horrible social problem.

I think two generations from now will  look back at our practice of abortion, and think "how barbaric!" because the ability for both men and women to prevent pregnancy will be as simple as chewing a stick of gum.  I suspect a simple, painless procedure given to all women at the age of (say) 8 will prevent her from getting pregnant, until she decides she wants to reverse that procedure to bear children.  A couple generations later, it would likely be mandatory, and 'unwanted' pregnancies would be as rare as polio is today.

Stephan




subfever -> RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? (1/23/2008 10:27:40 PM)

[sm=idea.gif]

Only God knows. And since there ain't no God... nobody knows. 




CuriousLord -> RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? (1/23/2008 10:27:46 PM)

My point is that "human" versus "not human" isn't really valid.. that we have to assess what it is, how it's like us and that causes our own values and self-worth to be reflected onto it in the manner that we do with eachother.

DNA is an example as to introduce the concept and not confuse people, but there's more to similarites and contrasts than just DNA.  A large part is, for example, cognative thought (which I briefly mentioned in the OP) which a severed human arm would lack.  (PS-  To make a point of it, even a severed human arm is more human than, say, a pile of dirt. We can empathize with it far more.  I wouldn't think twice if I saw a kid driving a shovel and tossing about bits of a pile of dirt, but it would irk me to see a kid playfully ripping apart a human arm.  Corpses are a wonderful example of this, given a portion of the dignity that the person had in life, often buried with respect.)

I do tend to agree.. hopefully, a more advanced future will have the luxury of never needing to worry about abortions, that this practice will be seen as barbaric and forgotten.




Owner59 -> RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? (1/23/2008 10:54:52 PM)

Is a spirm cell a human?

Is an ovum ,a human?

Is a Zygote ,a human?

Is a embryo,a human?

Is an embryo not attached to the uterus,and not feeding ,human?
If it never attaches, and forms the placenta(and therefor not viable),is it a human, yet?

If they are,then why don`t people have funerals for 
miscarriages or the unborn?




CuriousLord -> RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? (1/23/2008 11:01:42 PM)

Please do read the OP.  I made quite a point of the futility of using "human" or "not human" as criteria for such things.

For your last question.. are you suggesting that those all humans gets funerals, that all things that don't aren't human?  :P




Owner59 -> RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? (1/23/2008 11:07:44 PM)

The OP.....

"Is a fetus human?"

But the word can`t be used,in the answer?

WTF?lol




CuriousLord -> RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? (1/23/2008 11:21:56 PM)

Isn't it marvelous?  Such is the nature of growth!  Questions that can't be answered simply leading to greater understanding.

I mean, you could answer "Yes" or "No", but you'd be wrong either way.  :D




Zensee -> RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? (1/24/2008 1:01:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

The OP.....

"Is a fetus human?"

But the word can`t be used,in the answer?

WTF?lol



Astounding, isn't it?



Z.

PS: Pretty much what Stephann said except this bit "In a perfect society, I would like to say "Yes."




LadyEllen -> RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? (1/24/2008 3:05:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Abortion debates often come down to, "Is a fetus human?" 



I disagree with the question I'm sorry, since abortion debates often come down rather to which males, following which ancient male ideology enforced by males, are deciding the question - and which females, also well steeped in the ancient male ideology in question, are siding with which males in the verdict reached.

But more than that I see in your question the same, as I would call it at least, "error" in the application of harder science to people and society that you were using on the "Missouri" thread. Using harder sciences, I (though more likely you 'cause I lack the knowledge), could come to a very firm standpoint on abortion, following the reasoning you have laid out - however this would be very much lacking in terms of psychological and sociological aspects of the matter which whilst imprecise and therefore difficult to deal with, nevertheless require input to the reaching of a conclusion.

It is because of these human realities - value systems (shared or personal), social environments, variable circumstantial effects et al, that we can find no easy answer which we can all agree on with the likes of abortion, still less any rational answer that can be universally demonstrated to be correct.

Personally I find that the best course is to do as little harm as possible in the world, and for that reason I feel it is for an individual (and her partner, ideally) to decide on such matters as abortion. It is for the individual to know, and thence to decide, whether the abortion or a full term pregnancy will be beneficial or detrimental to them and to the potential child, and perhaps to the wider society. In any case,
certainly a ban has far more adverse effects than does to make it available in a safe, clinical environment, because abortions will continue in less favourable circumstances, regardless of illegality - because we all have our own value systems, environmental circumstances and so on.

And that "do as little harm as possible" idea isnt something confined to merely humans, which means that to many intents and purposes its irrelevant whether its a human in question or not.

E




MRandme -> RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? (1/24/2008 3:54:24 AM)

A fetus must be human.  It is not a goat, or a dog, or a fish... it is human. i will grant that it does not begin as a human, it begins as a cluster of cells. i would begin to classify it as human after it becomes more complex than a group of cells. Around week 5 i would call it a baby, human in every meaningful way as that is when the brain, heart and other organs begin to develop.

i agree that abortions must be kept legal and available to prevent back-alley operations using coat-hangers... but there should be incentives to prevent them. Programs that would encourage the mother to give birth and give the child up for adoption if she cannot care for it or doesn't want it.  In this day and age of shots, patches and pills it has never been easier to prevent an unwanted pregnancy.  Abortion should never be used as birth control.

Let me add that this is very personal to me. i have given birth four times and gloried in it each time. As a mother who has buried two of her sons, i cannot even imagine a person ending that life before it has a chance to begin.

g




aviinterra -> RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? (1/24/2008 4:39:24 AM)

First of, I find it amusing that so many men are wound up over abortion. If a male could get pregnant, then abortion would be a sacrament. No kidding, men just do not have a single clue as to what pregnancy entails, biologically, emotionally, financially, etc for the woman.It is a philosphocial idea to contemplate for a man, nothing more.
Second, the OP does not make the difference between fetus and embryo- which are we speaking about? Embryos are similar in nature almost across the board in mammals. I saw a few lined up under a microscope back in college, and everyone had a hard time proving the diff. between a cat and a human without digging into the very dna. So I guess we are speaking of about 10 weeks and up, when "our" genes do their thing and the embryo slowly becomes a fetus.
But wait- by that time most abortions have happened.
So yes, a fetus is human, but an embryo- and as hard as it is to swallow with our over inflated human egos, is very similar in nature to...for a lack of a more sensitive word...a parasite. ( Please note that this is not the case with a fetus, which creates it's own progestrone and tries to sustain itself to a degree)
On a side note- if anyone thinks abortion is an easy decision for a woman to make are in need of a psychological education course or exam themselves. It is a not a painless process, and remember abortion happens naturally via miscarriage, and every mother to be dreads that.
As to the member that posted that all women should have some procedure mandatory in the future to prevent pregnancy- how about if we snip some of the highly regenerative conduits through which sperm rush through? Yeah, I thought most men would chicken out.
As to those who take the higher moral ground and still want every child born- are you going to support the mother when the father leaves? Do you send out checks to your local poverty stricken households each month?
Please, please people, think before you try to direct the course of someone else's life, your decision will surely affect your life also ( a nod to increased taxes and an already overburdened system )!




kittinSol -> RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? (1/24/2008 5:00:27 AM)

I must say that I too shuddered at what Stephann wrote:

quote:



I suspect a simple, painless procedure given to all women at the age of (say) 8 will prevent her from getting pregnant, until she decides she wants to reverse that procedure to bear children.  A couple generations later, it would likely be mandatory, and 'unwanted' pregnancies would be as rare as polio is today.



A mandatory medical procedure such as the one you imagine above would be in contradiction with medical ethics, as they strictly advocate patient choice in all circumstances. Women are not cattle to be manipulated physically into 'breeder' and 'non-breeder' - which is effectively what you seem to be advocating above. I know that if I had a daughter, such a program would make me want to escape from it; but thankfully, I only have one son.




peterK50 -> RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? (1/24/2008 5:13:14 AM)

Is this a biology question or about humanity? I've observed some that while alive I wouldn't classify as human.




kittinSol -> RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? (1/24/2008 5:22:44 AM)

You'll have to ask CuriousLord - he is the person who defines 'human' here [:D] .




Maya2001 -> RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? (1/24/2008 6:10:54 AM)

[sm=applause.gif] beautiful answer




DomKen -> RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? (1/24/2008 6:28:13 AM)

CL,

Ever heard of HeLa cells? By your definition they are definitely human. But all they are is cervical cancer cells from Henrietta Lacks collected back in the 1950's and cultured and experimented on to this day. Is sterilizing a petri dish therefore murder?




RCdc -> RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? (1/24/2008 6:44:56 AM)

I disagree with your thought that abortion debates come down to 'Is a fetus human'.  It's way more complicated than that.
I also know that a fetus isn't necessarily human - if you check the biological definition of fetus anyway.
 
the.dark.




RCdc -> RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? (1/24/2008 6:48:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I must say that I too shuddered at what Stephann wrote:

quote:



I suspect a simple, painless procedure given to all women at the age of (say) 8 will prevent her from getting pregnant, until she decides she wants to reverse that procedure to bear children.  A couple generations later, it would likely be mandatory, and 'unwanted' pregnancies would be as rare as polio is today.



A mandatory medical procedure such as the one you imagine above would be in contradiction with medical ethics, as they strictly advocate patient choice in all circumstances. Women are not cattle to be manipulated physically into 'breeder' and 'non-breeder' - which is effectively what you seem to be advocating above. I know that if I had a daughter, such a program would make me want to escape from it; but thankfully, I only have one son.


I would have to second that I shuddered also.  and all I can say to Stephann is scarey, scarey invasive shit you are suggesting there -wow-[8|]
 
the.dark.




Aneirin -> RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? (1/24/2008 6:59:59 AM)

In answer to your thread title, yes a foetus( from a human) is human, but the rights and there fate of that foetus reside with the parents.




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