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So, whose responsibility is it? - 9/1/2005 4:11:54 PM   
Gauge


Posts: 5689
Joined: 6/17/2005
Status: offline 		I really need to ask a question here. I would consider myself a newbie to this lifestyle and an issue came up in another thread in the Ask A Slave/Submissive forum (Anal Sex Aftershock) where two, inexperienced people attempted anal sex without lube and the submissive was having pain and some problems afterward. I am paraphrasing the comment that was made but someone pointed out that that sub should reconsider having this Dom because if he couldn't be trusted to think of something as simple as lube that he might not be trustworthy in other areas. OK, a valid point but I took issue with it for a few reasons.

First of all, inexperience is inexperience and no matter how you look at it things will go wrong even for those who are well versed in the techniques of BDSM let alone someone new. The point is that we should learn from our mistakes.

Mistake, errors, misjudgments etc., will happen. It just bothers me that the sole responsibility is placed on the dominant in the relationship and if they do something wrong then the response is "Get out," "He is abusive," or "He can't be trusted." I don't know about anyone else, but I wasn't born knowing all sexual techniques or BDSM techniques. I guess that is my fault and I am a bad dominant.

Where is the learning curve? Do people (read submissives) expect perfection from a dominant? Is there no tolerance for making mistakes?

This is sort of scary to me because I don't feel that I have adequate experience to totally protect a submissive. I am not a troglodyte and I can and do learn things fairly easily. I read everything that I can online about BDSM and I have a few friends that have helped me along... not much mind you, but enough to know that I want more. What I am saying is that I am now more than a little gun shy. I have no desire to injure someone.

The other thing that got me about this other thread was that the overwhelming feeling was that it was the Dom's fault that they didn't use lube. OK, maybe it is but isn't there anyone that thinks the submissive should be responsible for that as well? Where is it written that it is the sole responsibility of the dominant to completely, utterly protect the submissive from harm? Not that I don't agree with that, I am just questioning who shoulders the responsibility.

I realize that the BDSM dynamic is different from the vanilla world but my thinking is that the responsibility for safety should be an issue for both in the relationship, not merely the dominant. I understand that as a dominant that control is something that is at the core of the relationship and therefore the burden shifts more on the dominant for safety issues etc. but the submissive should have something to say if they feel something isn't quite right.

I just realized how long this post is going to be so I will shut up and post this and perhaps I can clarify some things as we go along.

< Message edited by Gauge -- 9/1/2005 4:19:24 PM >

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RE: So, whose responsibility is it? - 9/1/2005 4:21:42 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		IMO It is the responsibility of the Dom (Owner) to know their experience limits and to seek advice and even supervision for the play. Dominants who have sub/slaves in their collar are responsible for the well being of that lil one.

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RE: So, whose responsibility is it? - 9/1/2005 4:25:12 PM   
greenie


Posts: 579
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline 		i am with You there Guage. she mentioned that both of them were inexperienced, and he could possibly as young as she is...so not really enough data on the both of them to assume he is abusive rather then inexperienced. i specifically mentioned in my post to her that anytime they want to try something new to both of them, no matter how simple, that she should research it beforehand and ask questions if necessary. How is a Dom or sub to get experience w/o trial and error? i believe that it is up to both to make sure that they have knowledge before going into anything. she needs to know what to expect and what her role will be and he needs to know what to expect and what safety precautions to take. i hope she got that message and will have many enjoyable experiences and that he does as well.

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RE: So, whose responsibility is it? - 9/1/2005 5:08:37 PM   
FLButtSlut


Posts: 344
Joined: 3/17/2005
Status: offline 		I can't see how this is anyone's "fault". Sometimes, a sub is not permitted to offer such suggestions, although I don't think that was the case here.

I just can't get past the idea that without lube in a virgin (and based on the post) very tight butt, how the guy wasn't having a bit of discomfort himself. Did I miss something or has a "dry hump" suddenly started to feel good for a man?

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RE: So, whose responsibility is it? - 9/1/2005 5:39:10 PM   
darkinshadows


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From: UK
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(Sorry to answer - I know this is in the Master forum but really hope its ok to reply Gauge)

I would say that mistakes are made - everyone makes them and perfection isnt an option. However, the reality is that the dominant should study the fetish/position/activity before experimenting. It doesnt take a few moments to read up on how importnat lube is to anal sex, for example. If he doesnt look and study on something like this - what may happen next? Tying a knot wrong? Clamping too hard for too long? Cutting the wrong part of the body or too deep?
Things go wrong and dominants are not perfect, but knowing that the time is taken to study or being Risk aware is vital to trust.
I do not believe in perfection, but I do believe in responsibility.

Peace and Love

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RE: So, whose responsibility is it? - 9/1/2005 5:39:46 PM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		While us "lil ones" can often enjoy the opportunity to be passive, protected and unconcerned with little things like thinking ahead- the responsibility lies with whoever the owner says it does. In a non-ownership style relationship, it is then the sub and dom both decide together who is responsible for what.

RESPONSIBILITY is hardly the same as AUTHORITY. The Owner makes me responsible for MANY things, my job is to make his life easier and I can't do that if I sit back while he has to do it all, all the time.

I agree that far too often we jump on doms as the bad guys, we try to put them on pedastals while simultaneously scared that they are barely contained within a net of limits. Instead of simply recognizing they are human and just because they have authority does not make them better (though countless subs fall into that and will even outright say that they want a dom who is smarter and stronger than they are).

Somethings, bad things DO just happen. But I think to gang up on the sub or the dom is unproductive and to realize that simply and ultimately, we have to be responsible for the situations we put ourselves into. Whether we do that directly or indirectly, consciously or unconsciously, putting all the responsibility on a single person in a relationship is a recipe for disaster.

We always like to say that relationships take everyone working together- that doesn't happen if only one person is responsible.

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RE: So, whose responsibility is it? - 9/1/2005 5:41:35 PM   
pinkpleasures


Posts: 1114
Status: offline 		Gauge..i would always forgive a Dom or Master i had accepted as mine for mistakes. Whilst i agree with all that's been said so far, i would never break the bond or return the collar simply because a Man made a mistake. i read that same thread and wondered why the subs did not simply say "stop; this hurts bad".

People are not perfect, and i am sure all Doms/Masters/subs/slaves have a learning curve. i suppose my Man will want anal sex and i fear it, but just like anything else, with trust and communication, this will be a pleasant experience -- eventually -- i have been assured many times.

What matters much more to me is whether the Dom or Master i find listens when i say "it hurts"; and otherwise is bonding with me.

pinkpleasures

< Message edited by pinkpleasures -- 9/1/2005 5:42:14 PM >

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RE: So, whose responsibility is it? - 9/1/2005 9:31:19 PM   
Gauge


Posts: 5689
Joined: 6/17/2005
Status: offline 		Please allow me to clarify one thing, I am not trying to focus on the couple in the other thread. I merely bring them into it because it was the most recent example of the issue I brought up.

I want to thank everyone for their replies thus far. Just to inform everyone, I have requested that this thread be moved to General BDSM Discussion. When I posted it, I was more intent on what I was posting than where I was posting it to. I don't want anyone to feel like they can't reply because this is in the Ask A Master section.

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I'm wearing my chicken suit and humming La Marseillaise.

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RE: So, whose responsibility is it? - 9/1/2005 10:24:01 PM   
subversiveone


Posts: 332
Joined: 4/20/2005
From: Daddy's Lap
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge
...Where is the learning curve? Do people (read submissives) expect perfection from a dominant? Is there no tolerance for making mistakes?

This is sort of scary to me because I don't feel that I have adequate experience to totally protect a submissive. I am not a troglodyte and I can and do learn things fairly easily. I read everything that I can online about BDSM and I have a few friends that have helped me along... not much mind you, but enough to know that I want more. What I am saying is that I am now more than a little gun shy. I have no desire to injure someone.

The other thing that got me about this other thread was that the overwhelming feeling was that it was the Dom's fault that they didn't use lube. OK, maybe it is but isn't there anyone that thinks the submissive should be responsible for that as well? Where is it written that it is the sole responsibility of the dominant to completely, utterly protect the submissive from harm? Not that I don't agree with that, I am just questioning who shoulders the responsibility.



Unfortunately, yes, many subs have unreasonable expectations of Doms. From savior to knight we tend to dream big ;) The fear of injury is always there but this is where the sub has to have the safety of opening her mouth and saying no (or at least a free toe/eyelash) because while pain is the desired effect, only the recipient knows when to say when. They can't hold you responsible for anything that they fully agree to with the understanding that you're both new and they are allowed. It's fear of rejection that perpetrates the silence of new subs, the desire to please and take inordinate amounts of pain/shame to keep their 'man'.

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RE: So, whose responsibility is it? - 9/1/2005 10:24:39 PM   
Mylee


Posts: 217
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline 		Gauge~ I thought it was quite harsh when i read it too, in fact i thought about it for a bit today as well, i think it unfair to place the blame with the Dom, no Dom is all knowing, and Doms have to learn somewhere too, no man is born with all the knowledge of sex, it's learned, and learning always involves trial and error, it's indeed sad that the sub in that case had to feel pain, and if we were to ask her Dom, i bet he feels very badly indeed,( especialy if he wants her to try anal agian)

Doms are not perfect, they are only men and no man is all knowing, i would not ever expect the one i am with to know all things, i would hope He would learn before trying things out on my flesh, but i could not judge Him harshly, for He and I are both new


~my'lee

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RE: So, whose responsibility is it? - 9/1/2005 11:21:52 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		The line I tend to draw is the line between negligence and a simple mistake.
If the error was made due to something simple then forgiveness is possible however if the problem is one of negligence failure to take reasonable action to prevent injury, then the negligence is not something I expect someone to forgive easily.

In Leather

Archer

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RE: So, whose responsibility is it? - 9/2/2005 12:52:19 AM   
brightspot


Posts: 3052
Status: offline 		Hello Gauge,

First in no way would i think you in the same class as a Troglodyte, *laughing* which I think is a great description regardless, reminds me of course of "The Time Machine" great movie!
I don't think that all the responsibility is up to the dom/me.
That is why communicating is so important.

What concerned me about that post and situation, was that this sub had asked questions before that a 30 year old dom should be aware of. I looked at the ages and the sub was 18 and the Dom 30...that for me makes the difference. If this Dom took on a submissive that much younger and naive, I do think it should be his responsibility to read up, study, do whatever it takes for safety and concern, considering carefully what he wants to experience with his sub who he is aware of being only 18.

*Brightspot

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RE: So, whose responsibility is it? - 9/2/2005 5:58:38 AM   
perfection20005


Posts: 419
Joined: 4/20/2005
Status: offline 		I think its the responsibility of both partners to make sure its researched before the actual act. I would never think of doing something I didn't know without reading about it first.
I'm a person first and its my responsibility to make sure that I'm healthy and safe in any kind of play.

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"I took one look at Him, and I knew He was my Master."

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RE: So, whose responsibility is it? - 9/2/2005 6:45:59 AM   
OsideGirl


Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge


Mistake, errors, misjudgments etc., will happen. It just bothers me that the sole responsibility is placed on the dominant in the relationship and if they do something wrong then the response is "Get out," "He is abusive," or "He can't be trusted." I don't know about anyone else, but I wasn't born knowing all sexual techniques or BDSM techniques. I guess that is my fault and I am a bad dominant.



You're right, everyone makes mistakes. But, since the Dominant is in control, it is his responsibility to do everything in his power not to "do harm". There are zillions of articles on how to have anal sex safely, both vanilla and alternative lifestyles are represented. It would have taken very little effort on the part of Dominant to spend 5 minutes reading up on it.

In my opinion, taking the time to research and have safety precautions in place helps minimize the mistakes that happen. As is submissive, I wouldn't consider leaving the relationship, but it would put some questions regarding him into my head.




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RE: So, whose responsibility is it? - 9/2/2005 7:39:41 AM   
Dracironsgirl


Posts: 175
Joined: 7/2/2005
Status: offline 		to: Gauge

i posted my thoughts on anal aftershock as well & i was shocked by some of what i read there....
Dom's fault ? blame ? why blame anyone at all, we all make mistakes no one is perfect and finding
fault to that is just rediculous and reeks of VanillaWorld kind of issues to me. where's the compassion
& understanding
in blame the Dom, now He can't be trusted ? are you seriously basing His entire worth as a Dom from
life sometimes happening that way, because no one is perfect, & to say His worth as a whole lies soley on
this is perhaps saying a lot about the worth as a person themselves for even suggesting such a blunder
as that. my experience has told me that most are thankfully not this anal in thinking. .....ok, i'll quit ranting
now thanks, no offense meant...

< Message edited by Dracironsgirl -- 9/2/2005 7:40:42 AM >

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RE: So, whose responsibility is it? - 9/2/2005 7:45:32 AM   
Dracironsgirl


Posts: 175
Joined: 7/2/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

IMO It is the responsibility of the Dom (Owner) to know their experience limits and to seek advice and even supervision for the play. Dominants who have sub/slaves in their collar are responsible for the well being of that lil one.


but does that mean they are not to be trusted as a result of this ?
that their worth as a Dom is now dimminished a lot?
mistakes happen even to Doms called being human i say

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RE: So, whose responsibility is it? - 9/2/2005 8:01:29 AM   
imtempting


Posts: 1280
Joined: 2/11/2005
Status: offline 		Well going by the quote in this thread ( i have not read the thread it was stolen from )id say it was the Dominants fault as submissives are meant to trust the Dominant. How is a submissive meant to know the Dominant wants anal sex except for when he is going to put it in???

I thought people would realise that you need to make a gal wet for vaginal intercourse, so would anal sex be different?? As with anal sex you either need lube or to make the gal super horny as not to cause pain....

As for you gauge by what ive seen off you in the threads you seem intelligent and im sure if you are going to do something you would be carful and intelligent about it...

< Message edited by imtempting -- 9/2/2005 8:02:44 AM >

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RE: So, whose responsibility is it? - 9/2/2005 8:32:20 AM   
OsideGirl


Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dracironsgirl

why blame anyone at all, we all make mistakes no one is perfect and finding
fault to that is just rediculous and reeks of VanillaWorld kind of issues to me.


There's a difference between a mistake and ignorance. Not researching something that can be dangerous before you do it is ignorance.

quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkpleasures

i read that same thread and wondered why the subs did not simply say "stop; this hurts bad".
Because many subs are afraid that saying something like that is something that will make their Dominant view them as less submissive, not compliant, or topping from the bottom.

I think these fears come from the "Uber Submissives". You know, the submissives that brag that they are the ultimate submissive, have no limits*, and will take anything a Dominant can dish out. It also comes from the Dominants who like to lecture submissives on how to be submissive.

quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkpleasures

People are not perfect, and i am sure all Doms/Masters/subs/slaves have a learning curve.


People are not perfect. Even an experienced player can have something go wrong. But, the learning curve should begin before you start a scene/session/whatever you want to call it. I certainly wouldn't drop someone over a mistake. But, we would be having a serious discussion about HOW he learns.

quote:

ORIGINAL: imtempting

How is a submissive meant to know the Dominant wants anal sex except for when he is going to put it in???


I absolutely agree. I rarely know what Master has planned until it happens.


* This comment is not aimed at those in long term "no limit" relationships. I believe that "no limit" situations can and do work in those instances. I'm refering to people that claim no limits, even with people they do not know.

< Message edited by OsideGirl -- 9/2/2005 8:34:39 AM >

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RE: So, whose responsibility is it? - 9/2/2005 8:41:25 AM   
plantlady64


Posts: 755
Joined: 5/19/2005
Status: offline
quote:

I want to thank everyone for their replies thus far. Just to inform everyone, I have requested that this thread be moved to General BDSM Discussion. When I posted it, I was more intent on what I was posting than where I was posting it to. I don't want anyone to feel like they can't reply because this is in the Ask A Master section.


Hello There,
I am one in the other post who feels it isn't anyone’s fault, but ultimately the Dom in a BDSM relationship's responsibility to be sure the two play safe. In the vanilla world where there is an equal partnership, I feel it's both equally that are accountable, but not when there is complete submission of ones will to another. That adds responsibility to the top in my book.
I don't agree she should consider this a deal breaking offense in any way. I think deal breakers are acts that are intentionally chosen by someone that results in heartfelt pain, not innocent ignorant ones like the case aforementioned.
I think they should both learn from the mistake that caused the suffrage and not repeat the lack of knowledge type of mistake again. I think this has taught both of them a valuable lesson in the need for knowledge and training before they attempt new things.
As I said in the other forum, I think when someone submits their body and will to you, it's not your responsibility to know everything there is to know on a subject, but rather you are responsible to understand safety risks of things the two of you attempt.
If you haven't tried something, you should discuss what is the common knowledge of the two of you on the subject. He could have even told her to go on the web and see what it says and tell him.
Often in my training path, I research a new type of play and present my knowledge of what I'd like to try to my Master. As he's been a Dom for 25 years he already knows the subjects fully, but wants to know I understand the safety risks for myself, especially due to the fact I play with others.
I agree the sub is also responsible for her body and how it's permitted to be used. I think this is true especially if it's something that affects her/his long-term health, but when in a scene again I point out the choice is not always thesub/slave/bottom's option.
For example when I scene with my Master I'm often playing at levels that leave me sore for a few days and sometimes even a week afterwards. It's in my mind supposed to be the Dom's right and option only as to how much discomfort I should have to endure from our scenes.
No matter what my Master would wish to do to me, I would permit him to have the right to make me experience what ever he wishes.
Sometimes the choices are physically painful on purpose, and we like it that way.
It's not that he allowed her to be injured so much as it happened without their knowledge of the after affects for her.
To me is the Dom/Domme's responsibility to be sure things are safe, sane, and consensual.
When the sub gives their will and control of their body to the top for their use and pleasure, the bottom needs to be able to trust the top will guide them safely on their journey. I think if there's not a Captain in control of guiding a boat, it's prone to run ashore and sink.
Sincerely,
sub suzanne

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RE: So, whose responsibility is it? - 9/2/2005 9:40:56 AM   
fastlane


Posts: 2159
Joined: 5/26/2005
Status: offline 		I tend to agree with Suzanne and feel it is the Dom/Domme's responsibility. However, I also believe that we must accept responsibility for our own actions, rather we are D or s and if there are consequences, we should not point fingers and always look for someone else to blame.

It's kinda like when a foul odor permeates the room and everyone starts to point at the Dog........yeah.....right? No one wants to look bad..........or smell bad, in the example I gave, so they point the finger elsewhere.

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