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RE: So, whose responsibility is it? - 9/2/2005 3:56:58 PM   
anopheles


Posts: 241
Joined: 6/23/2005
Status: offline 		I think the best way to confront a situation such as this, when both parties are inexperienced and maybe don't know all of their limits that well, is with a simple rule that the sub should be allowed to comment if something is really hurting too much. It takes a while to figure out where someone's pain threshold lies, and the sub should be allowed to at least acknowledge that something is too rough until both of them are confident that the sub knows their threshold, and can be comfortable in the knowledge that his/her Dom knows where it is as well. This is particularly important in the area of anal sex, because not only can a bad experience be physically damaging, but very emotionally damaging as well. The Dom should be responsible for setting this dynamic in place however, and be responsible for keeping it that way for as long as necessary for the health and well-being of their charge.

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RE: So, whose responsibility is it? - 9/2/2005 5:07:20 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dracironsgirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

IMO It is the responsibility of the Dom (Owner) to know their experience limits and to seek advice and even supervision for the play. Dominants who have sub/slaves in their collar are responsible for the well being of that lil one.


but does that mean they are not to be trusted as a result of this ?
that their worth as a Dom is now dimminished a lot?
mistakes happen even to Doms called being human i say


I would hope not. I will tend to see anyone in my collar as part of a team and as such she would be given responsibilities as well as being required to keep me updated on how she feels about things generally. Not if but when something like this happens, I believe in open conversation and working through this together. Hopefully truse can be re-established and the bond strengthened. I see nothing wrong with a Dominant telling their lil one that they (the Dominant) made a mistake or was wrong. This, to me, is part of being a responsible and thoughtfull adult, parent, partner, and owner/dominant. Mistates will happen. What matters is how they are dealt with and what lessons have been learned. If this results in the end of the relationship, I'd be questioning many areas of said relationship to ascertain why.

_____________________________

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Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

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RE: So, whose responsibility is it? - 9/2/2005 8:49:43 PM   
Dolf


Posts: 2
Joined: 8/29/2005
Status: offline 		I always have to understand what the specific dynamics of this specific relationship are before being able to fully qualify my thoughts and then relay them. What if this is one of those "shut up and follow my lead" doms? Then it clearly becomes his full responsibility. If, on the other hand, he has approached this openly with his submissive and has a completely free flow of information within the relationship then I would have to say that they made a mistake together. I hope that this submissive didn't feel she could not say something.

It sounds to me that inexperience and poor judgement led to this problem. I hope the dominant is not a cocky "know it all" and just made a simple mistake. Then at least he has a chance of learning something from it. If we are going to make a mistake we might as well get revenge on it by never allowing the same one to breathe again.

Dolf

(in reply to Gauge)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: So, whose responsibility is it? - 9/3/2005 12:12:13 AM   
tade


Posts: 663
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Tampa Bay, Florida
Status: offline 		I am the one that made the post and exactly what I said was...


"I have to say that I would be concerned about that "Dom" of yours. None of my buisness but I know if I had a young sub that was new to this whole thing I would not start them off giving them their first anal without lube. I can see where that may have it's place depending on how you play, different tastes and all. But not for your first time. Darlin, just because someone acts dominant, doesn't mean that they are your dominant. Either he was a little (ok a lot) inexperienced and didn't know himself, or didn't care and wanted to hurt you. Neither one would be a person that would create the sense of trust that is really at the base of all of this. "

I still stand by that. I understand the point that is being made on the other side, really I do. But I feel like not knowing that you should use lube (even though some of you don't) when doing anal sex, her first time with anal sex by the way, is a bit more than an inexperienced mistake. If you are a newbie and you hit a sub in a delicate spot to hard with a paddle, fine. Get a little to close with that new single tail, I've been there. But ripping apart your sub's ass because you were too inexperienced to know to use lube is not in the same ballpark to me. What will be the next thing you try but are to inexperienced to know the right way to play,suspensions, breath play? What if she gives her safe word but he is to inexperienced to know that she really means to stop.

I never once meant to imply that he should be blamed for anything, but at the same time, I know it would take alot for me to trust him enough to do anything that I had not already had my own experience in. And what good does that do them. What kind of respect do you give a Master that you always have to second guess. Any sub that we have ever Topped at the very least doesn't worry about their safety when they play with us. Sanity maybe, but they are always safe. I always did take care of my toys.

Between now and then,
Tade

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RE: So, whose responsibility is it? - 9/3/2005 1:31:46 AM   
RexLongBeach


Posts: 58
Joined: 10/30/2004
Status: offline 		Yes, the Dom has responsibility for the overall safety of the scene. Based on what I've read, he was wrong to do the anal scene without lube. But that doesn't mean he can never be trusted.

Even the best Doms are human, and humans make mistakes. In this case, it doesn't appear that there were any signs that anything was amiss during the act - the OP reported that problems did not come up until later.

The only way he could have known lube was highly adviseable was if he'd planned the anal in advance, researched it, etc. What if it was just spontaneous? Does he need to research every possible sexual act before he engages in it? And even if he had researched it, would he not have found that many people practice anal without the lube because it works best for them that way?

Perhaps we make reasonable decisions about high-risk vs. more moderate risk activities. Unlike another poster, I view anal play as categorically separate from things like cutting, asphyxiation, and suspension.

Even so, I would not suggest overlooking the incident.

How can the submissive make a fair assessment of the Dom's trustworthiness? Events like this don't happen in isolation. What was his reaction? Did he blow her off when he learned of her difficulties? Or is he chastened and researching everything ever published on the topic? If he's generally irresponsible, or doesn't care, or is just too lazy to learn what he needs to know, then trust is not deserved.

I don't know how many Doms have been eviscerated in cyberspace for alleged unsafe activities. It's not going to stop any time soon.

To the sub who suffered from a Domly mistake, I'd say judge the whole Dom, and the incident in its full context.

To Gauge, I'd say have fun, experiment, and go slowly. By taking a careful approach, your confidence will grow quickly. If you're feeling gun-shy, choose a different weapon (metaphorically speaking, of course). There are many, many ways to play.

And play, we must.

Rex

(in reply to tade)
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RE: So, whose responsibility is it? - 9/3/2005 3:27:51 AM   
BlkTallFullfig


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quote:

Mistake, errors, misjudgments etc., will happen. It just bothers me that the sole responsibility is placed on the dominant in the relationship and if they do something wrong then the response is "Get out," "He is abusive," or "He can't be trusted." I don't know about anyone else, but I wasn't born knowing all sexual techniques or BDSM techniques. I guess that is my fault and I am a bad dominant.

Where is the learning curve? Do people (read submissives) expect perfection from a dominant? Is there no tolerance for making mistakes?
I agree that everyone should be responsible for his/her decisions, but do place more on the dominant because we are overtly saying "trust me to lead you." I believe people are playing a dangerous game when they take these roles in life, do dangerous things without at the very least reading about them first.

I don't think anyone expects that a dominant is all knowing, but I hope we can agree that some things are basic, and should be known (such as no ripping anus apart by shoving things in there sans lube).
I happen to agree with the person saying "consider dumping him as he is only playing an adult's role, while not being one really", but I resisted the temptation since other people's relationships aren't really my biz.

The thread to which you are referring was begun by a young lady who has also had questions about yeasty thing on dom, and bleeding excessively during sex... So something concerns me about these trends, but I expect everyone who is an adult to be responsible for his/her behavior, so at some point maybe she too will be sufficiently concerned to check this dom out a little better.

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RE: So, whose responsibility is it? - 9/3/2005 4:20:59 AM   
lovingmaster45


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Joined: 9/16/2004
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quote:

Gauge~ I thought it was quite harsh when i read it too, in fact i thought about it for a bit today as well, i think it unfair to place the blame with the Dom, no Dom is all knowing, and Doms have to learn somewhere too, no man is born with all the knowledge of sex, it's learned, and learning always involves trial and error, it's indeed sad that the sub in that case had to feel pain, and if we were to ask her Dom, i bet he feels very badly indeed,( especialy if he wants her to try anal agian)


I will have to disagree Mylee.

This is just another situation where a so-called "master" screwed up because he did not ask for help from a knowledgable Mentor. Let me get out that soapbox now.

When I read about some moron attempting to rewire an outlet and killing himself, I think...there goes Darwin again. Well people listen up...we are messing with other people's wiring here. Ask someone who knows what they are doing for adviice on how YOU should do it.

If I were that sub, I would never trust the moron again. What is worse, he has screwed her up for the next "master". I could tell countless stories of subs who I have played with who have had that kind of past trauma. It takes a good deal of work with them before they trust you; because they convey the failings of one master to the nature of all masters.


I hope she finds someone who has a clue. This guy and countless other "masters" does not.


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RE: So, whose responsibility is it? - 9/3/2005 9:28:33 AM   
subversiveone


Posts: 332
Joined: 4/20/2005
From: Daddy's Lap
Status: offline 		There's a huge difference in being new to anal sex and new to the "scene". As a sub, ive often been in the 'position' of having to either keep my mouth shut or feeling it was innapropriate to say something. I can see where something like anal sex could happen spontaneously in a scene and the first penetration could really hurt w/out said lube. I haven't read the other thread and I'm not trying to pass judgement on it. After the first few 'strokes' of anal w/out lube, i would somehow make it clear i was in pain. And not in a 'good' way ;) If He ignored that or purposely kept at it to hurt me, i'd be put in the position of deciding if this is what i wanted in the future. Getting a sore ass is way different from a cigarette burn or a bloody gash (or worse). One can't forsee if these things are going to happen unless they have knowledge and famailiarity w/the top. Even then i suppose there's always that chance. How do we learn to trust anyone, regardless of D/s? the concept of a no limits slave only works in a relationship where a huge amount of trust has been established IMO. You can't just waltz into D/s thinking you're safe or invincible. I have my limits after years of play and experience. There are the duhhhh ones that everyone should already know, if they've ever had any kind of kinky sex, there's the "it's my pussy and i know what will happen if" ones, and then there are just weird personal phobias and barriers. We often fail to discuss these things in the heat of the moment, hence my advocation of questionnaires and long talks BEFORE any such play.

< Message edited by subversiveone -- 9/3/2005 9:30:46 AM >

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RE: So, whose responsibility is it? - 9/4/2005 6:59:39 AM   
OscarHargraves


Posts: 693
Joined: 8/9/2005
Status: offline 		I think by the very nature of the relationship it has to be the Dom's responsibility to ensure safe play. The Sub submits to the Dom's will and trusts the Dom to respect limits, create good play, AND play safely. If there was real pain and any kind of a problem the Dom should have recognized this and stopped the play or made some changes (lube?) to continue. Yes, I know the Sub has 'safe words' and could have stopped but all too often the Sub will not use those safe words until things have gotten totally out of hand so as to not displease the Dom. Others may disagree, but I think ensuring safety comes with the job description of being Dom, Top, Master or whatever.

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RE: So, whose responsibility is it? - 9/4/2005 7:38:56 AM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OscarHargraves
I think by the very nature of the relationship it has to be the Dom's responsibility to ensure safe play. The Sub submits to the Dom's will and trusts the Dom to respect limits, create good play, AND play safely.

But the dom does that also- the dom trusts the sub to respect limits, create good play AND play safely.

Trust me, subs can ruin good scenes just as much as doms can, they can break trust and do stupid things and even dangerous things just like doms.

quote:

Yes, I know the Sub has 'safe words' and could have stopped but all too often the Sub will not use those safe words until things have gotten totally out of hand so as to not displease the Dom.

Hmmm then hat DOES make it the subs "responsibility" The sub accepted the safeword as a way to communicate something and then failed to do so. Whether the sub just didn't know how to use it well or there were emotional issues attached to it or not- those are communication issues that should get sorted out.

If the sub doesn't feel they can take responsibility, then they shouldn't accept the safeword, because that IS a responsibility.

(in reply to OscarHargraves)
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RE: So, whose responsibility is it? - 9/5/2005 12:40:26 PM   
OsideGirl


Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2
Hmmm then hat DOES make it the subs "responsibility" The sub accepted the safeword as a way to communicate something and then failed to do so. Whether the sub just didn't know how to use it well or there were emotional issues attached to it or not- those are communication issues that should get sorted out.

If the sub doesn't feel they can take responsibility, then they shouldn't accept the safeword, because that IS a responsibility.



I agree Em. But, I also think that the Uber Submissives and Wannabe Doms have managed to drive through the concept that actually making use of a safeword is a bad thing. I find that even experienced submissives, never mind the novices, have a hard time grasping the "safeword protects the Dominant's property" view. They somehow think that using that safeword diminishes their submissiveness or is an insult to their Dominant.

I think another part is that how to use safewords is not always explained well. The Dominant needs to explain what is acceptable use of that safeword and what is not. The Dominant also needs to make it clear that a safeword used correctly will not make him/her angry.

I think if more time was spent explaining and talking about those issues, there would be a lot less carnage on the roadside. Which is a similar take on what you said.

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RE: So, whose responsibility is it? - 9/5/2005 1:17:47 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

. If there was real pain and any kind of a problem the Dom should have recognized this and stopped the play or made some changes (lube?) to continue. Yes, I know the Sub has 'safe words' and could have stopped but all too often the Sub will not use those safe words until things have gotten totally out of hand so as to not displease the Dom.


Overall, the issue here isn't one of safe words or whose responsibility it is. The issue is a question of self identity. Just because you say you are a "dom" doesn't make you one. If there is one responsibility or better yet, trait that is required to be a "Dom" it's confidence. Confidence doesn't mean knowing everything. It means realizing and admitting to yourself and your partner that you DON'T know everything.

It's not an issue of age, or ability, it's an issue of experience. In the referenced post neither participant had any experience with anal sex. That being the case the "dom" should have been confident enough to admit it before the event and found out something basic - An asshole (the orifice not the person.) is NOT self lubricating. If the people have access to CM they can use any search engine, lifestyle or vanilla, and discovered this basic concept. Is there any site where anal sex is discussed that doesn't recommend lubrication?

Does that make it someone's fault when a problem comes up? Well suppose the subject was fire-play and the same "let's try it!" attitude prevailed, and just to get some intensity, gasoline was poured over the subs body. Would whose fault be an issue, or would we be questioning something else? Something like - what the hell were you BOTH thinking? If you didn't know, or have any experience, why did you do it without finding out how to do it without risking death? Too dramatic?

What we have here is proof that common sense - isn't!

(in reply to OscarHargraves)
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RE: So, whose responsibility is it? - 9/5/2005 1:56:02 PM   
OsideGirl


Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline 		Very well said, MercnBeth.

Just as a side note. I think people down play the dangers of anal sex. From a website:
quote:

You can also injure yourself in various ways by participating in anal sex. Rectal tearing, fistula, and colon infections are all possible consequences of anal sex. There is also some controversy about whether anal sex can trigger hemorrhoids, but if you have hemorrhoids already, it can cause them to flare up and bleed. If you experience serious anal bleeding after anal sex, it could be a medical emergency. Don't wait to go see the doctor.


One of my very close friends is an ER nurse. They had someone come with a rectal fistula that required draining by puncturing it with a needle, large doses of antibiotics and eventually surgery because the fistula had eaten a hole between the rectum and the vagina. This is basically a small tear that becomes infected and causes a blister. Kind of like a white head pimple. The infection eats downward into the tissue. Sounds yummy doesn't it?

Just the thought of that has me ordering the 55 gallon drum size of lube.

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Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

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RE: So, whose responsibility is it? - 9/5/2005 2:55:24 PM   
grits


Posts: 24
Joined: 7/23/2005
Status: offline 		Sometimes people who are inexperienced aren't even aware of what questions to ask, or if they do, fear appearing less Dom or sub if they do ask. Imho, it's really the responsibility of both Dom and sub to make sure that harm and the "wrong" type of pain doesn't happen. When my ex and i were just beginning, i don't think he knew more than i did, which is where the Internet came in handy. i also think that when either party is that inexperienced it doesn't hurt (and isn't topping from the bottom) to talk about a new idea one of them read/heard about. When we were thinking about experimenting with wax, he came home one day with bright red candles and said..look what i found on sale..with that special gleam in his eyes. i'd remembered reading about wax play, and "suggested" that we do a little research on it. Unfortunately we read different articles, and i ended up with some blisters..but i think it could have been worse, i guess. i also made friends with some people who were already involved, and much more experienced, with SM, and that helped both of us. The moral of those blisters, we decided, was to make sure both of us were (literally) on the same page..lol. Communication and research and practice (like with a whip or flogger) are important for everyone..cuz we're all new once. i also think that's why sites like this that have forums attached are so good. it's another source of information, and easy to check out..

grits

(in reply to Gauge)
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RE: So, whose responsibility is it? - 9/5/2005 7:52:16 PM   
Mylee


Posts: 217
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingmaster45

quote:

Gauge~ I thought it was quite harsh when i read it too, in fact i thought about it for a bit today as well, i think it unfair to place the blame with the Dom, no Dom is all knowing, and Doms have to learn somewhere too, no man is born with all the knowledge of sex, it's learned, and learning always involves trial and error, it's indeed sad that the sub in that case had to feel pain, and if we were to ask her Dom, i bet he feels very badly indeed,( especialy if he wants her to try anal agian)


I will have to disagree Mylee.

This is just another situation where a so-called "master" screwed up because he did not ask for help from a knowledgable Mentor. Let me get out that soapbox now.

When I read about some moron attempting to rewire an outlet and killing himself, I think...there goes Darwin again. Well people listen up...we are messing with other people's wiring here. Ask someone who knows what they are doing for adviice on how YOU should do it.

If I were that sub, I would never trust the moron again. What is worse, he has screwed her up for the next "master". I could tell countless stories of subs who I have played with who have had that kind of past trauma. It takes a good deal of work with them before they trust you; because they convey the failings of one master to the nature of all masters.


I hope she finds someone who has a clue. This guy and countless other "masters" does not.




You know, being new myself, I hadden't thought of it this way, i was looking at it from the standpoint that both the one i am with and i are new, but LovingMaster, the way you explain this, your valid in your point, though i woulndt expect the one i am with to be all knowing, i wouldnt want him to mess with my wiring....thanks for helping me see it another way :)

my'lee

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RE: So, whose responsibility is it? - 9/5/2005 11:23:29 PM   
MasterMaxSteel


Posts: 5
Joined: 10/4/2004
Status: offline 		I agree that both parties in any relationship or situation hold responsibility in their behavior. That said, ultimately, it's the dominant's reponsibility to take the lime and make the effort to learn enough or keep ahead of the game enough to make anything they and the submissive/slave do is within a "reasonable" level of risk. For the dominant to do otherwise, experienced or not, is not responsible.

I like the concept of "RACK" aka Risk Aware Concentual Kink." That said, if one is aware of the risks, most time one will have also learned what steps to take to reduce the risk to a reasonable level.

Being ignorant of the law doesn't excuse one from suffering the penalties if one fails to follow it.

Just my opinion,

Max

(in reply to Gauge)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: So, whose responsibility is it? - 9/6/2005 4:02:04 PM   
Orbital


Posts: 15
Joined: 8/16/2005
Status: offline 		I'm going to say a couple things that I hope aren't "missing the point".

Sometimes accidents happen, and that's ok. Sometimes mistakes happen, and that's also ok. Everyone's human and there are going to be the occasional slipups. Any reasonable person will understand this and be able to judge for themselves if its something worth getting in a twist over or not. Most honest mistakes fall under the category of "not".

Ok, having said that, I'll reply to the subject line of the thread. It says "So, whose responsibility is it?". The answer is: The Dom/Domme's, and only theirs. As long as the sub is being obedient and compliant and doing whatever he/she is told, they are also abdicated from all responsibility. For instance, if a Dom wants to fuck his sub/slave in the ass, he has to be the one who understands everything about what to expect. He's the one with the control and is the one who makes the decisions. It is, therefore, his responsiblity alone. If he wants to try shibari or figging or any other new and wild stuff, he's the one who has to think ahead. He's the one who has to have read up on it. He's the one who has to decide whether or not it's going to work or if it's going to be a train wreck.

A few slip-ups make you human, and that's perfectly alright. If, however, someone calls you "Master" (or "Mistress") and you accept that role then there's no backing out; you have to do the thinking for the both of you. No blaming screwups on the one from whom you've taken power away.

(in reply to Gauge)
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RE: So, whose responsibility is it? - 9/6/2005 4:27:38 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

If, however, someone calls you "Master" (or "Mistress") and you accept that role then there's no backing out; you have to do the thinking for the both of you. No blaming screwups on the one from whom you've taken power away.


That's one way to end up with a lot of dead submissives.

There are far too many casually appointed and self-anointed masters/mistresses out there to rely on that attitude. You don't "check your brain" at the door to begin a M/s relationship. If you haven't determined the skill set your partner brings into the relationship you better make sure he/she is qualified before trying any potentially damaging activity; regardless of what name you refer to them.

(in reply to Orbital)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: So, whose responsibility is it? - 9/6/2005 4:46:34 PM   
Orbital


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Joined: 8/16/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

If, however, someone calls you "Master" (or "Mistress") and you accept that role then there's no backing out; you have to do the thinking for the both of you. No blaming screwups on the one from whom you've taken power away.


That's one way to end up with a lot of dead submissives.

There are far too many casually appointed and self-anointed masters/mistresses out there to rely on that attitude. You don't "check your brain" at the door to begin a M/s relationship. If you haven't determined the skill set your partner brings into the relationship you better make sure he/she is qualified before trying any potentially damaging activity; regardless of what name you refer to them.


Your point is well-made and, while I stand by my own comments, I can see that I didn't express myself clearly enough and welcome your counter-argument. Thank you.

If you're a person who submits, don't ever do so lightly. Once you're hogtied and getting orders it's going to be hard to conduct the necessary interview process. Make sure you know who you're dealing with and be thorough. Submitting is a conscious, adult, purposeful decision; don't cut corners on the process of sizing potential Doms up.

Of course most or all people here know that already, so forgive if I'm just repeating old news.

Personally speaking, when I'm Domming I expect nothing from my sub. No communication, no clarity of mind, no self-advocacy. Nothing. Only submission. I feel that if I'm going to ask her to completely release herself to me then I had better be ready to take on the responsibility of being in control of both her and myself. To wit: The entire situation is in my hands, and I take that seriously.

So if she bleeds or has bruises or a concussion or a black eye or a missing patch of hair off her scalp (heh) or whatever... I want it to be on purpose, and if it isn't, then I consider it my fault.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: So, whose responsibility is it? - 9/6/2005 5:03:32 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

Personally speaking, when I'm Domming I expect nothing from my sub. No communication, no clarity of mind, no self-advocacy. Nothing. Only submission. I feel that if I'm going to ask her to completely release herself to me then I had better be ready to take on the responsibility of being in control of both her and myself. To wit: The entire situation is in my hands, and I take that seriously.

So if she bleeds or has bruises or a concussion or a black eye or a missing patch of hair off her scalp (heh) or whatever... I want it to be on purpose, and if it isn't, then I consider it my fault.


I agree with this and take full responsibility for my slave or anyone I decide to include in a session. But except for you and me there are a lot of other Dom's out there who subs shouldn't give themselves so readily.

My post wasn't so much to contradict you, as to advise people with limited experience to - BE CAREFUL, especially when trying something for the first time, especially when trying something with someone just a "new" as you. At that point you have to contribute to your own safety or you could contribute to your own demise.

(in reply to Orbital)
Profile   Post #: 40
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