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RE: The Characteristics of being "property" - 2/18/2008 8:47:29 AM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl

I've been following this thread for a couple of weeks now.  The thought that keeps entering my mind is the one way direction of the relationship between and owner and his or her property.  "Property" generally has limited feelings for it's owner and really can't serve well. For example, A Master may take care of his car (or whatever) but his vehicle doesn't really give a shit, giving only indifference  in return.  It performs the function it was designed for, but that's about it.  And, its not especially forgiving, operating on a "what have you done for me lately" basis.  Finally, the value of a vehecle tends to decrease over time, depreciating significantly as soon as its driven off the lot.  "Life experience" doesn't count for much when it comes to property.  But, the real kicker for me is that I tend to have feelings for my Master.  Indifference doesn't work.

Even a pet that can develop an attachment to its owner (it really depends on the pet--fish and  birds are one thing, dogs and cats  another) can't actually do much for that owner.  Some can be trained to perform some limited kinds of service but most just lay around sleeping alot of the time and need a lot of maintenence.  They shouldn't really be counted on to take care of themselves or  much of anything else. 

I dunno.   Maybe its  hubris, but I like to think that I can at least be counted on to take care of myself. 



Irish Mist already said what was on my mind, and said it well. 

I think you're forgetting that humans have the ability to think, reason, feel, and care for themselves and others, unlike inanimate objects and other animals.  That and opposable thumbs give us the ability to love, adore, and serve to our fullest.  Humans are quite functional that way. 

(in reply to gypsygrl)
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RE: The Characteristics of being "property" - 2/18/2008 9:12:05 AM   
gypsygrl


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From: new york state
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quote:

I think you're forgetting that humans have the ability to think, reason, feel, and care for themselves and others, unlike inanimate objects and other animals.  That and opposable thumbs give us the ability to love, adore, and serve to our fullest.  Humans are quite functional that way. 


No, I'm not forgetting that. :)  It's precisely these abilities that make me wonder (and I'm not alone in this cf: the whole tradition of natural rights theory that reaches back a couple thousand years and became very popular after the french revolution...yanno, serfs were freed, slaves were emancipated and folks got it into their heads that some rights were inalienable and some truths were self-evident) how far I can go in the direction of the Owner/property model.  The Owner/property model seems alienating (in the hegelian-marxist sense of the word alienate) for both parties: I, as property, accept a certain amount of objectification but he, as owner, ends up with an object.  If taken to its logical conclusion, the  result would seem emotionally barren.

Of course, there's its not always necessary to take things to their logical conclusion.  Things can be taken in illogical directions with good result.

_____________________________

“To be happy is to be able to become aware of oneself without fright.” ~Walter Benjamin


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RE: The Characteristics of being "property" - 2/18/2008 9:39:51 AM   
gypsygrl


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quote:

A human being, with emotions, CAN be treated like a car; yet still feel emotion for the owner.


First, this is an empiracle claim.  I've yet to see anyone treated like property exept for limited  amounts of time in real life bdsm communities so I'm unable to evaluate it for myself.  Of course, my experience is limited so I'm not saying the claim is false, just that I'm not in a position  to evaluate it.

Second, there's a huge difference between being treated LIKE a car and being a car.  The word "like" in your sentence implies a metaphor---"She treats him like a car" and she can only treat him  this way because he really isn't a car and everybody knows this.  If he really were a car there'd be no question of his treatment; she'd just fuel him up and drive him.  Of course, thats one thing she can't do with him because he's not a car.  By extension, one can be treated like property only because he or she isn't.   My guess is that its this play of metaphor that gives the property  idea its content.





_____________________________

“To be happy is to be able to become aware of oneself without fright.” ~Walter Benjamin


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RE: The Characteristics of being "property" - 2/18/2008 11:37:19 AM   
joy2u


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Status: offline 		Speaking only for myself, i am the property of my Master because He has full and exclusive possession of me and use of me.  He owns me.  Not legally, of course, but, as far as He and i are concerned, He owns me. 
 
He doesn't treat me like His other property, not like His car, not like His dog, and not like a piece of china.  He treats me like the unique and special person that i am to Him.  He treats me like His very own, personal servant for life, which is what i am.  He knows i have feelings and He loves to see me express my feelings, especially when they are feelings of pain and discomfort caused by His actions.  And, i like it, too.
 
Why does being considered the property of another mean that i must be compared to all other types of property, whether animate or inanimate?  Not all property is the same.  Not all property Owners are the same.  Not Owners treat their property the same.  How my Master chooses to use His property is His choice and as long as it works for Him and i, that's all that matters to me.
 
joy
Owned servant of Master David

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RE: The Characteristics of being "property" - 2/18/2008 4:22:14 PM   
Paulsgirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: joy2u

Speaking only for myself, i am the property of my Master because He has full and exclusive possession of me and use of me. 

Yes i agree....and Master has the right to say how He uses me, to whom he loans me, and what others can do with me and what i may do with others......if i do anything with others it is for Him and not for them although they may experience it as being for them.....


_____________________________

Formerly Prinsexx

~There came a time when the risk to remain tight in the bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom.~
Anais Nin

(in reply to joy2u)
Profile   Post #: 165
RE: The Characteristics of being "property" - 2/18/2008 5:15:25 PM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl
The Owner/property model seems alienating (in the hegelian-marxist sense of the word alienate) for both parties: I, as property, accept a certain amount of objectification but he, as owner, ends up with an object.  If taken to its logical conclusion, the  result would seem emotionally barren.

Of course, there's its not always necessary to take things to their logical conclusion.  Things can be taken in illogical directions with good result.


Sometimes what seems logical for some is completely illogical for another, especially when dealing with human emotion and dynamics. 

I quoted the above because while I recognize and appreciate you might feel such things in regards to yourself, this is not the case universally.  Perhaps it is that you are seeing an "object" as ONLY and "object", as in an inaminate object, rather than an emotionally complex human object.  I am Master's object, but his human object, and he feels human love and emotions for me, due to the give and take nature of our relationship.  Therefore, I am a human object that he cares deeply about, so much so that he recognizes my need to be in such a place with him.

Being a cared about human object is deeply comforting to me, and I feel most secure here.  This type of objectification covers me.  To get really cheesy on you, one of my favorite songs, The Winds of March by Journey, explains how I feel in this position:

I covered you with roses...like the stars at night
I covered you with love...like a blanket on a cold winter's night
I covered you with joy...to make your lifetime big and bright

My objectification to him..."covers me."  We all have certain human needs, and each of us is unique in what they are.  What "covers" you may not have the same effect on me at all, and may seem totally illogical to me, based on what my own personal needs are.  But think of what makes you feel the warmest, the most true to yourself, where you most belong...and that is how I feel as my Master's human property.

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RE: The Characteristics of being "property" - 2/18/2008 5:27:13 PM   
gypsygrl


Posts: 1471
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: new york state
Status: offline 		I don't have a lot to say in response except to point out that it can be cool to follow a logical train then go back to whatever point and take that same train in a different, even illogical, direction.  Or, carve out some kind of crazy, alternative logic.

The quoted song was really cheesy. :)


_____________________________

“To be happy is to be able to become aware of oneself without fright.” ~Walter Benjamin


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RE: The Characteristics of being "property" - 2/18/2008 5:34:06 PM   
gypsygrl


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quote:

Why does being considered the property of another mean that i must be compared to all other types of property


Because its the way language works.  By using the word 'property' you are classifying yourself with 'all other types of property'.  Why, instead of calling yourself property, don't you just say your a unique and special person in a unique and special relationship?  My guess is because the word 'property' captures something about yourself and your relationship that makes the comparison with other kinds of property worthwhile. 

_____________________________

“To be happy is to be able to become aware of oneself without fright.” ~Walter Benjamin


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Profile   Post #: 168
RE: The Characteristics of being "property" - 2/18/2008 5:41:25 PM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl

I don't have a lot to say in response except to point out that it can be cool to follow a logical train then go back to whatever point and take that same train in a different, even illogical, direction.  Or, carve out some kind of crazy, alternative logic.


I'm not sure I understand your point here.  Are you saying I took your train of thought in an illogical direction? 

quote:


The quoted song was really cheesy. :)



Yep, but I warned you in advance.  And this, from a non-romantic type.  Go figure. 

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RE: The Characteristics of being "property" - 2/18/2008 5:43:47 PM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl

quote:

Why does being considered the property of another mean that i must be compared to all other types of property


Because its the way language works.  By using the word 'property' you are classifying yourself with 'all other types of property'. 


Just curious, do you feel this way about pet names, too?  Would you say being called "pet" classifies one as a pet animal?  Or being called "honey" classifies one as something that came from a bee?   

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Profile   Post #: 170
RE: The Characteristics of being "property" - 2/18/2008 5:53:40 PM   
gypsygrl


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quote:

I'm not sure I understand your point here.  Are you saying I took your train of thought in an illogical direction?


Nah.  Just that technically speaking, "logic" doesn't allow for the sort of relativity your describing in the first line of your response but that shouldn't prevent you from pursuing your version of happiness.  It might prevent me from pursuing my version of happiness, but thats my problem. lol

_____________________________

“To be happy is to be able to become aware of oneself without fright.” ~Walter Benjamin


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Profile   Post #: 171
RE: The Characteristics of being "property" - 2/18/2008 6:00:46 PM   
gypsygrl


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quote:

Just curious, do you feel this way about pet names, too?  Would you say being called "pet" classifies one as a pet animal?  Or being called "honey" classifies one as something that came from a bee? 


If one used the words casually, no, I wouldn't feel that way.  But, if someone very ernestly described themselves as a pet, going into some detail, then wondered why people kept comparing them to other pets, I'd feel that they brought it on themselves by insisting that they were a pet. 

_____________________________

“To be happy is to be able to become aware of oneself without fright.” ~Walter Benjamin


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Profile   Post #: 172
RE: The Characteristics of being "property" - 2/18/2008 6:26:34 PM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl

quote:

I'm not sure I understand your point here.  Are you saying I took your train of thought in an illogical direction?


Nah.  Just that technically speaking, "logic" doesn't allow for the sort of relativity your describing in the first line of your response but that shouldn't prevent you from pursuing your version of happiness.  It might prevent me from pursuing my version of happiness, but thats my problem. lol


I was disagreeing with your unproven logic.  My "version" of happiness IS happiness.  Your original posts were claiming that those like me can not be happy in our situations.  I was simply saying you were wrong. 

And it's not your problem if you do not pursue a relationship that would make you unhappy.  Nor is it a problem for you if I continue with mine.  :)

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RE: The Characteristics of being "property" - 2/18/2008 9:07:51 PM   
joy2u


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quote:

Why does being considered the property of another mean that i must be compared to all other types of property

quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl
Because its the way language works.  By using the word 'property' you are classifying yourself with 'all other types of property'. 


As has been stated by me and others, there are different types of property.  Intellectual property isn't the same as real property which isn't the same as private property, etc., and i am a one-of-a-kind human property that cannot be duplicated, unless someone clones me.  i have a value to my Master which is much higher than the value He places on His other property. 
 
Different types of property are treated differently because they aren't the same.  In case of fire, my Master will rescue me before He rescues His shoes or His dinner plates.  In fact, He might not rescue His shoes or dishes or any of His other property, at all.  But, he will rescue His human property.

quote:

Why, instead of calling yourself property, don't you just say your a unique and special person in a unique and special relationship? 


Like i said, i am the property of my Master because He has the full and exclusive possession and use of me.  He owns me.  Not legally, of course, but, as far as He and i are concerned, He owns me.   And, like i said, He treats me like the unique and special person that i am to Him.  i don't need to state that i am a unique and special person or that i am in a unique and special relationship, since that's a given because everyone is unique and special and so is every relationship, at least to me.
 
joy
Owned servant of Master David

(in reply to gypsygrl)
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RE: The Characteristics of being "property" - 2/19/2008 5:31:45 AM   
gypsygrl


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quote:

Your original posts were claiming that those like me can not be happy in our situations.


Errmm...I never made any such claim.  I was writing from my own perspective and only from my perspective.  Thus far--and I may change--the property model doesn't work for me.  I never--and wouldn't--say that it doesn't--or couldn't--work for others.  I did say in my reply to IrishMist that I haven't seen any real life couples in the bdsm community consistently operate with an Owner/property model but I was also careful to specify the limits of my claims there:  just because I hadn't seen it  doesn't make it impossible.

I'm not sure what you're reading  into my posts or why you seem to insist on finding a criticism that isn't there. 

_____________________________

“To be happy is to be able to become aware of oneself without fright.” ~Walter Benjamin


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RE: The Characteristics of being "property" - 2/19/2008 7:20:50 AM   
Paulsgirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aynne


It is tiring to be a feminist submissive...sigh....



i totally agree.......fuckin exhausting.....
i just lay back and thing of England, my duty to my King and cunt........


_____________________________

Formerly Prinsexx

~There came a time when the risk to remain tight in the bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom.~
Anais Nin

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Profile   Post #: 176
RE: The Characteristics of being "property" - 2/19/2008 8:14:13 AM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl

I'm not sure what you're reading  into my posts or why you seem to insist on finding a criticism that isn't there. 


I'm not.  I read the following words of yours, which created appeared to imply a certain message that I disagreed with:


Post #159:
"Property" generally has limited feelings for it's owner and really can't serve well.

And:

"Even a pet that can develop an attachment to its owner (it really depends on the pet--fish and  birds are one thing, dogs and cats  another) can't actually do much for that owner.  Some can be trained to perform some limited kinds of service but most just lay around sleeping alot of the time and need a lot of maintenence.  They shouldn't really be counted on to take care of themselves or  much of anything else. 

I dunno.   Maybe its hubris, but I like to think that I can at least be counted on to take care of myself."
The words above are not specific to you and are basically equating (unless I’m reading it wrong and correct me if I am) property and pets as something that can not take care of themselves and require maintenance.  Your parting comment appears to imply that you can take care of yourself, but those who identify as property can not.


Post #162:
 
"The Owner/property model seems alienating (in the hegelian-marxist sense of the word alienate) for both parties: I, as property, accept a certain amount of objectification but he, as owner, ends up with an object.  If taken to its logical conclusion, the  result would seem emotionally barren."


You used yourself and owner as an example to state your claim of alienation but came to the “logical conclusion” that those in this scenario would seem emotionally barren.  Why is that the logical conclusion?  You could have said you would feel emotionally barren in such a state but the wording you chose is more universal and doesn’t clarify that your sentiment is in regards to your own relationship but not others.


"Of course, there's its not always necessary to take things to their logical conclusion.  Things can be taken in illogical directions with good result."


This seems to imply anyone disagreeing with your logic is incorrect.  So, if I feel differently than you, I am being illogical?


In your post 163 to Irish Mist, you went on to explain that those who relate themselves to property, such as a car only with human emotions, are incorrect.  “By extension, one can be treated like property only because he or she isn’t.”

How is that speaking for yourself only?  How is that not a criticism of those who actually do see themselves as property?


When I questioned you about your words, and explained my thoughts on being an “object”, you responded that you had nothing to say to that, other than that I was being illogical, or carving out “…some sort of crazy, alternative logic.”

I’m sorry but how is that limiting your argument to yourself only, and how is that not being critical?



Post 168 to Joy:

"By using the word 'property' you are classifying yourself with 'all other types of property'. "


That isn’t speaking for yourself either; that is defining what Joy is saying about herself.  You then went on to suggest how she defines herself, as though the way she currently defines herself is incorrect.

 
Not critical?  You tell me.
 
 
I was incorrect in saying your claim was that we could not be happy – that was a misunderstanding of one of your posts.  But you do seem to be speaking for the masses about what property is and what it is not.  I am not “insisting” on finding a criticism.  That is not my nature on these forums.   I was disagreeing with your claims about the logic of those who do not agree with you.

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RE: The Characteristics of being "property" - 2/19/2008 9:34:51 AM   
meticulousgirl


Posts: 969
Joined: 2/20/2007
Status: offline 		just ask yourselves what is realistic and what is not for your particular situation....we all have different needs and wants here and what may make myself and many others here happy may just not be your cup of tea....

~meticulous~

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Profile   Post #: 178
RE: The Characteristics of being "property" - 2/19/2008 10:14:07 AM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meticulousgirl

just ask yourselves what is realistic and what is not for your particular situation....we all have different needs and wants here and what may make myself and many others here happy may just not be your cup of tea....

~meticulous~


That has been my point.  There are many ways to achieve the goal of fulfillment.  What is realistic to one may not be to others, etc.  My point was to point out that deciding what is realistic or not for others isn't an optimal practice.  I'm perfectly happy where I am, and have little, if any, care for what others think about it.  But when I see universal statements made about what is real and what isn't...what can serve and what can not...and how others should define themselves, I like to point it out.  It's one of my quirks, I guess. 

With that, I'm off to have a fun day.  Enjoy!

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Profile   Post #: 179
RE: The Characteristics of being "property" - 2/19/2008 11:22:23 AM   
gypsygrl


Posts: 1471
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: new york state
Status: offline 		Yeah, ok.  I guess I wasn't taking my attempt to explore the implications of a model as seriously as you were taking it.  I was conducting something along the lines of a thought experiment and didn't mean for you or anyone else to take it personally. 

_____________________________

“To be happy is to be able to become aware of oneself without fright.” ~Walter Benjamin


(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 180
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