RE: State of the Union Address (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid



Message

DomKen -> RE: State of the Union Address (1/31/2008 12:54:23 PM)

Once again you simply aren't telling the truth. Gore never mentioned Horton, teh details of his case or his crime. Gore mentioned in one question in one debate that two furloughed prisoners had commited murder, Horton's crime after failing to return from furlough was rape. Yes, Dukakis vetoed the bill changing the law after the state supreme court decided it included all prisoners.
http://www.dailyhowler.com/dh110102.shtml

Now for the linkage between NSPAC and the Bush campaign. Larry McCarthy produced the NSPAC ad and had worked for and was close friends Roger Ailes who was a media consultant to the Bush campaign. Strangely Lee Atwater had been testing voter repsonse to the issue in focus groups since the spring of 1988.  Did NSPAC independently derive the exact same issue using the exact same case? Which would still have been an illegal use of PAC funds. The FEC investigated and got stonewalled and gave up. The matter would end there if not for Lee Atwater's deathbed conversion and letters of apology to people he believed he had wronged. Such a letter was sent by Atwater to Dukakis. Why?

Now what left wing groups have I denied a connection to the Democratic party or to specific candidates? Links to my posts on this subject would be appreciated since to the best of my recollection I've never denied any such thing and my search of my posts here seems to back me up.

As to the Medrano affair, I'm of two minds on it. First it was an attempt to play on Medrano's ethnicity in the same way showing Horton's face had been. However it was an attempt to counter attack no matter how badly bungled and that was necessary. I just wish they had chosen a better subject, Bush's secrtary while in china would have been my choice, but the Dukakis campaign did not have the sort of people who were good at this sort of thing.



luckydog1 -> RE: State of the Union Address (1/31/2008 4:50:05 PM)

DomKen so you are admitting that Kerry/Democrats was involved in the CBS/NY Times/Fortunate son affair?  You know forged documents on TV/Dan Rather ect.  Or are you denying it?

And just to be clear, you are now admitting that Dukakis used his veto Pen to keep releasing Violent offenders, even after murder and rapes had been commited while out on weekend furlough,  and your previous claim that he had nothing to do with it was false? 

"Did NSPAC independently derive the exact same issue using the exact same case? Which would still have been an illegal use of PAC funds. "   The issue was brought up by Gore, so it makes perfect sense that independant groups would use it.  And it would not be illegal at all to use the same issue.  That the Democrats didn't notice, and nominated Dukakis anyway was just pure stupidity.

Also Dom Ken you admit that the recent list of bush "lies" was paid for by Soros and the the Democrats.  That Media Matters, Move On, and Air America, are all part of the Democratic machine and illegal collusion?  Or do you pretend they are "indpendant" groups, that get together at confrences and are funded by the same guy?



TheHeretic -> RE: State of the Union Address (1/31/2008 6:20:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
   And since you are not responding to any aspect of the campaign, other than the mutual attacks on military service, I'm not feeling really obligated to go Googling.

Mutual? I looked into your claim that Whoopi Goldberg attacked servicemen and couldn't find anything.



     I never suggested she had attacked vets, Ken.  You are the one pretending this whole conversation is about attacks on military service.  Try widening your Google.  (Whoopi Goldberg Bush Kerry - You'll find it).

      If you wish to continue arguing that Kerry ran a high road type campaign, while refusing to even acknowledge the tone of filth, bile, and hatred it was conducted in, I'm going to repeat myself.  Obtuse is boring.

    



DomKen -> RE: State of the Union Address (1/31/2008 7:51:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

DomKen so you are admitting that Kerry/Democrats was involved in the CBS/NY Times/Fortunate son affair?  You know forged documents on TV/Dan Rather ect.  Or are you denying it?

And just to be clear, you are now admitting that Dukakis used his veto Pen to keep releasing Violent offenders, even after murder and rapes had been commited while out on weekend furlough,  and your previous claim that he had nothing to do with it was false? 

"Did NSPAC independently derive the exact same issue using the exact same case? Which would still have been an illegal use of PAC funds. "   The issue was brought up by Gore, so it makes perfect sense that independant groups would use it.  And it would not be illegal at all to use the same issue.  That the Democrats didn't notice, and nominated Dukakis anyway was just pure stupidity.

Also Dom Ken you admit that the recent list of bush "lies" was paid for by Soros and the the Democrats.  That Media Matters, Move On, and Air America, are all part of the Democratic machine and illegal collusion?  Or do you pretend they are "indpendant" groups, that get together at confrences and are funded by the same guy?

No, liar.

I asked for a specific case where I made a statement denying a particular left wing groups relationship to the party. I have never done so despite your claim. This is what the third or fourth lie you've told in this thread.

Now to address your claims.

Dukakis did not veto the repeal of the furlough system after murders or rapes had been commited. You've once again made up facts. He vetoed that repeal in 1976. Horton's rape and the two merders occured in the 80's as even a cursory check of the facts will show.

Once again, as already I've pointed out, Gore never mentioned Willie Horton or alluded to his crimes. He refered to two murders not a rape. NSPAC was a PAC. PAC's couldn't at the time use their money to investigate such matters. Paying an investigator a single cent to investigate such an issue was a crime. Letting Lee Atwater funnel such information to them for use in an ad was illegal. The FEC was stonewalled over who commited the felonies but their final report is quite clear the crimes had to have occured. Too bad really the FEC doesn't have real investigative powers.

Yes, there is evidence of contact between the producer of the Dan Rather report on Bush and Kerry campaign officials. However the CBS investigation showed those contacts came after the story was developed by the producer. There is no evidence of a connection between Bill Burkett, the presumed forger, and the Democratic party or any member of the Kerry campaign. If you actual evidence contrary to that then present it.

As to the report on Bush lies, it was paid for by Soros. No doubt it is a matter of public record. Do you have evidence that the Democratic party paid for it as you claimed above or are you simply saying that soros is a part of the Democratic party because he is a liberal and gives money to Democratic party candidates?

At this point I'm really going to have to ask you to cut down on the number of lies per post it is causing me to have to spend an inordinate amount of time double checking the details on each one and posting the truth. Even if you won't do that I do demand that you cease telling lies about me and publicly retract the ones you've already made.



DomKen -> RE: State of the Union Address (1/31/2008 8:11:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Mutual? I looked into your claim that Whoopi Goldberg attacked servicemen and couldn't find anything.



    I never suggested she had attacked vets, Ken.  You are the one pretending this whole conversation is about attacks on military service.  Try widening your Google.  (Whoopi Goldberg Bush Kerry - You'll find it).

     If you wish to continue arguing that Kerry ran a high road type campaign, while refusing to even acknowledge the tone of filth, bile, and hatred it was conducted in, I'm going to repeat myself.  Obtuse is boring.

So you're upset Whoopi told some jokes about Bush? That was the only thing I turned up in googling Bush and Whoopi. Beyond the fact she was publicly anti war and didn't conceal the fact or her general dislike of GWB. Shall we compare Coulter's comments on Kerry to Whoopi's about Bush or are you willing to acknowledge that what a comedian says about a politician is viewed by some as very funny while others are outraged by it. However as I've asked before what of this rises to the level of SBVT? Show me something you can even indirectly associate to Kerry's campaign that rises to the level of SBVT. Or at this point explain to me, as I've asked before, how you can vote for a draft evader who ordered or allowed a series of known lies to be told about a fellow veteran? I've asked that question of a dozen or more vets who voted for GWB and no answer has ever jived with their outrage over Clinton a few years earlier.



TheHeretic -> RE: State of the Union Address (1/31/2008 8:18:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

how you can vote for a draft evader who ordered or allowed a series of known lies to be told about a fellow veteran?



         Oh, the irony...

         Yes.  You're right.  Obtuse CAN be good for a laugh.  Point well made. 



luckydog1 -> RE: State of the Union Address (1/31/2008 8:29:11 PM)

"Dukakis did not veto the repeal of the furlough system after murders or rapes had been commited. You've once again made up facts. He vetoed that repeal in 1976. Horton's rape and the two merders occured in the 80's as even a cursory check of the facts will show.  "

Of course I never asserted any such thing.  After the court forced the program to include violent offenders the legislature tried to cancell the program.  Dukakis vetoed it.  He vetoed the cancellation and kept putting violent offenders on the street for the weekend.  Horton commited his crime long after Dukakis (and the following Democrat Govenor) kept the program running.  After the Legislature (will of the people) wanted it stopped.  And I will point out a fundemantal mistake in your statement.---  murders and rapes had allready occured, that is why the violent offenders were put in prision.  Before they got to go on a furlough, they were already convicted violent offenders.  Rapes and murders, assaults, had already been commited.  And you call me a liar.  good grief.

You can assert that a crime occured, but there was an investigation, and the results disagree with your apperantly made up assesment.  Seems to be a common theme with you.  Of course CBS investigated itself and found no problem, so you accept that at face value....Your hypocrisy is amazing

Please feel free to point out any lie here.  You can make demands all day man, thats just funny. 

Here is an example of your method of argument.  you say "Do you have evidence that the Democratic party paid for it as you claimed above or are you simply saying that soros is a part of the Democratic party because he is a liberal and gives money to Democratic party candidates? "  

That is not what I am saying at all.  It is in fact an intentionall distortion of what I am saying.  Soros does not simply give the legal amount of money to Democratic Candidates.  He pays for Dozens of  permanent Media campaigns, including TV ads, Books, radio Stations.  I already listed this stuff, why play dumb. 




Here you go Mapes arranged a meeting between Burket and the Kerry Campaign    http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/complete_report/CBS_Report.pdf  pg 60-

"Mapes and Smith made contact with Burkett in late August, and on August 24 Burkett offered to meet with them to share the documents he possessed. Emails between Smith and Mapes document their discussion of providing assistance to Burkett (financial compensation, help negotiating a book deal, security, and Burkett's request that they facilitate his contact with the John Kerry Campaign) in exchange for the documents but found no evidence that any of these proposals "contemplated in these emails was ever consummated, except for putting Burkett in touch with the Kerry campaign," which the report characterized as, "a clear violation of CBS News' standard II-I as an 'unethical newsgathering practice."[12]"

So the contact between CBS, Burket and the Kerry Camp is documented and admitted to by CBS

I await your apology, but ain't holding my breath....



DomKen -> RE: State of the Union Address (1/31/2008 8:36:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

how you can vote for a draft evader who ordered or allowed a series of known lies to be told about a fellow veteran?
 
      Oh, the irony...

      Yes.  You're right.  Obtuse CAN be good for a laugh.  Point well made. 


So the usual lack of useful response. Don't let it worry you all the knee jerk conservative vets I've asked have been similiarly unable to respond in a useful manner. You at least tried to insinuate that Kerry told lies about vets, which of course is not supported by any fact but is possible. I hope that makes it easier for you to sleep at night when you consider Bush has never gone to Dover to meet returning caskets or attended a single funeral. Of course you should avoid considering that if you really were a man of your principles you would have voted libertarian or not voted at all so as to not support either man who wronged vets in such despicable fashion.

I do thank you for remaining civil throughout this exchange and refraining from repeatedly telling lies about me or others.



luckydog1 -> RE: State of the Union Address (1/31/2008 9:12:19 PM)

Didn't Kerry compare US Vets to the hordes of Ghengis Khan and war criminals, in front of Congress durring the winter soldier thing? That hardly seems to be a positive thing to say. 

The swifties pointed out that Kerry applied for several deferments (he was rejected) before he used his folks influence to get a safe spot in the Navy.  That is worse than being called a criminal of the likes of Ghengis Kahn?  I guess it is in some partisan worlds?



luckydog1 -> RE: State of the Union Address (1/31/2008 9:13:40 PM)

"There is no evidence of a connection between Bill Burkett, the presumed forger, and the Democratic party or any member of the Kerry campaign. If you actual evidence contrary to that then present it. "

I provided the evidence you asked for....are you not going to respond domken?



TheHeretic -> RE: State of the Union Address (1/31/2008 9:23:54 PM)

        Just to keep the record straight, I understand that Bush meets frequently with the families of casualties. 

       I've tried sending my message by voting an alternative candidate.  I went for Nader in '00.  I found those things you apparently didn't notice in the '04 election worthy of a far stronger form of protest vote.  I even put two bumper stickers right above the CA plate on my old pick-up;  Bush '04 and My Karma Ran Over My Dogma.



DomKen -> RE: State of the Union Address (2/1/2008 6:26:21 AM)

I'm going to document your most recent lies Luckydog and then be done with you since you cannot seem to produce a post not filled with lies.

your post #122
quote:

And just to be clear, you are now admitting that Dukakis used his veto Pen to keep releasing Violent offenders, even after murder and rapes had been commited while out on weekend furlough, 


Your post #127
quote:

"Dukakis did not veto the repeal of the furlough system after murders or rapes had been commited. You've once again made up facts. He vetoed that repeal in 1976. Horton's rape and the two merders occured in the 80's as even a cursory check of the facts will show.  "

Of course I never asserted any such thing.

You simply lied again after I pointed out your previou sstatement was a lie.

Again in post #122
quote:

Also Dom Ken you admit that the recent list of bush "lies" was paid for by Soros and the the Democrats. 


Again in post #127
quote:

Here is an example of your method of argument.  you say "Do you have evidence that the Democratic party paid for it as you claimed above or are you simply saying that soros is a part of the Democratic party because he is a liberal and gives money to Democratic party candidates? "  

That is not what I am saying at all.  It is in fact an intentionall distortion of what I am saying.  Soros does not simply give the legal amount of money to Democratic Candidates.  He pays for Dozens of  permanent Media campaigns, including TV ads, Books, radio Stations.  I already listed this stuff, why play dumb. 

It was you who claimed the Democrats paid for the study. I asked how you made the jump from Soros to "the Democrats". Your response, caught as you were in an exagerration, was to creatively quote me and then lie.

I'm done. You're a an unrepentant liar and I see no way forward. Go ahead, declare victory and gloat, it's what a good neocon liar would do.



thetammyjo -> RE: State of the Union Address (2/1/2008 6:33:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Al Gore talked about the details of Hortons case (Tammy Jo, Gore was in fact in politics and ran for the Democratic Nomination in 88), And Gore brought the issue to the national level. Bush picked up on it.


Then why didn't you say that?

If you want to make a claim either give the full evidence or be misunderstood -- your choice really.

I can't read your mind so you need to communicate better.



thetammyjo -> RE: State of the Union Address (2/1/2008 6:44:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Didn't Kerry compare US Vets to the hordes of Ghengis Khan and war criminals, in front of Congress durring the winter soldier thing? That hardly seems to be a positive thing to say.

The swifties pointed out that Kerry applied for several deferments (he was rejected) before he used his folks influence to get a safe spot in the Navy. That is worse than being called a criminal of the likes of Ghengis Kahn? I guess it is in some partisan worlds?


So is the claim that soldiers in war never commit crimes?

Or that merely being a soldier is a pass on all crimes?

Perhaps the concept of crime does not mesh with the reality of warfare. Perhaps attempts to 'civilize' warfare is a foolish act used by those in power to try and keep the masses marching off while they get rich behind their safe walls. Ah for the days when military leaders actually led in battle at least they were taking some risk then.

I'm all for supporting our soldiers especially once they've done their service and I think it a sad sad commentary on society that our veterans are basically treated like crap by a government that sends them out to fight, die, or suffer the aftermath of service. It's been that way for decades, the blame lies in both major political camps.

Why? Because warfare is often tied to wealth and power both of which will corrupt.

Before any one attempts to claim that I'm too liberal and just anti-defense let me tell you that my views one war would likely scare you because my views are very cautious but also very ancient in nature.



Alumbrado -> RE: State of the Union Address (2/1/2008 6:44:27 AM)

quote:

What part of his records are you talking about? The only thing a little vague has been his discharge date and the date of his honorable discharge. This has nothing to do with the lies told about him by SBVT. The records of his service in Vietnam are public as are all the documentation surrounding his decorations.


[sm=biggrin.gif]

Oh, please do show us a link to this 'documentation' about Kerry's Silver Star with V device for valor, which to this day, he has never recanted, even though there simply is no such award.

Your blind zealotry in support of one lying politician over the rest of the lying politicians isn't touching, it is repulsive.



DomKen -> RE: State of the Union Address (2/1/2008 7:38:13 AM)

?
You're talking about the entry in his military records right? You do know he didn't type his personnel jacket himself right? Some clerk typed "V for valor" after his Silver Star just like he had for the Bronze Star right next to it. Blaming Kerry for not knowing the minutia of his awards and not being so anal as to have his entire jacket revised for a single clerical bungle is just what I expect from the right wing. Of course I'm sure I'll be condemned as well since I always had to drag out the book any time I did anything with my ribbon bars since I simply could never remember the precedence of the awards. As to whether Kerry knew the V device wasn't supposed to be on the ribbon, I'm betting that 99+% of servicepeople would wear the ribbon as the awards listed in their jacket required and would never go looking to make sure the clerk who put it together had gotten it right.

However I will note that the V is not awarded with Silver Stars since that medal already denotes valor. Kerry was not wearing a Silver Star he did not earn and the worst that can be said is he was technically out of uniform when he wore the V on the ribbon, if he ever did I personally couldn't find any photos that showed him wearing a V on his silver star.



Owner59 -> RE: State of the Union Address (2/1/2008 8:09:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Didn't Kerry compare US Vets to the hordes of Ghengis Khan and war criminals, in front of Congress durring the winter soldier thing? That hardly seems to be a positive thing to say. 

The swifties pointed out that Kerry applied for several deferments (he was rejected) before he used his folks influence to get a safe spot in the Navy.  That is worse than being called a criminal of the likes of Ghengis Kahn?  I guess it is in some partisan worlds?


The swifties pointed out that Kerry applied for several deferments (he was rejected) before he used his folks influence to get a safe spot in the Navy.  That is worse than being called a criminal of the likes of Ghengis Kahn?  I guess it is in some partisan worlds?


Got anything to prove that,liar?

Other that what the swiftboat vets for"truth" said.

There was no connection between Kerry and the Bush/AWOL story.

Bush/Rove were fully behind and worked with the "Swiftboat Veterans for Truth".



~Luckydog,defending the indefensible,for more than 7 years.~



Owner59 -> RE: State of the Union Address (2/1/2008 8:21:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo


quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Didn't Kerry compare US Vets to the hordes of Ghengis Khan and war criminals, in front of Congress durring the winter soldier thing? That hardly seems to be a positive thing to say.

The swifties pointed out that Kerry applied for several deferments (he was rejected) before he used his folks influence to get a safe spot in the Navy. That is worse than being called a criminal of the likes of Ghengis Kahn? I guess it is in some partisan worlds?


So is the claim that soldiers in war never commit crimes?

Or that merely being a soldier is a pass on all crimes?

Perhaps the concept of crime does not mesh with the reality of warfare. Perhaps attempts to 'civilize' warfare is a foolish act used by those in power to try and keep the masses marching off while they get rich behind their safe walls. Ah for the days when military leaders actually led in battle at least they were taking some risk then.

I'm all for supporting our soldiers especially once they've done their service and I think it a sad sad commentary on society that our veterans are basically treated like crap by a government that sends them out to fight, die, or suffer the aftermath of service. It's been that way for decades, the blame lies in both major political camps.

Why? Because warfare is often tied to wealth and power both of which will corrupt.

Before any one attempts to claim that I'm too liberal and just anti-defense let me tell you that my views one war would likely scare you because my views are very cautious but also very ancient in nature.


Luckydog would have made a fine nazi,following his orders and "playing ball" with his  superiors.

Maybe even an officer`s commission, in the SS?

They needed men who would look the other way,if not help them as they committed their war crimes.

Every thug nation,needs their luckydogs.



luckydog1 -> RE: State of the Union Address (2/1/2008 9:19:24 AM)

Well you can call me a Nazi all day long if you like owner, that about what we expect from you.   Kerry applied for deferments and when that failed tried to join the reserves, then after that didnt work signed up.    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/03/07/wkerr07.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/03/07/ixnewstop.html

Not that I actually expect you to read the news article. or admit you were wrong



Owner59 -> RE: State of the Union Address (2/1/2008 9:24:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo


quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Al Gore talked about the details of Hortons case (Tammy Jo, Gore was in fact in politics and ran for the Democratic Nomination in 88), And Gore brought the issue to the national level. Bush picked up on it.


Then why didn't you say that?

If you want to make a claim either give the full evidence or be misunderstood -- your choice really.

I can't read your mind so you need to communicate better.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EC9j6Wfdq3o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lFk78R_qYM&feature=related

I remember these ads well.They played like 20 times a day on every channle.Over and over.

Turn the sound down and view them silently,just capturing the images.The photo of Horton,the quintessential monstrous black male image,so often used by whites to demonize black men through out history.

This time though, being used to club Dukakis.The technique was just as scary for people today ,as it has been in the past 200 years.

Then there`s the words  MURDER,RAPE,etc.,etc. over and over.

It was definately a racist ad.

Gore did not use Horton this way,and he didn`t try to exploit white fear of black men,like Bush  and Roger Ailes did.

The line about Gore 1st mentioning Horton,is classic half-truth bullshit.While Gore mentions Horton`s name 1st,Gore didn`t do what the republicans did.

Though Roger Ailes (the guy who presently runs FoxNews,btw)denied being involved will the ads,he was.

"Described by fellow Bush aide Lee Atwater as having "two speeds--attack and destroy," Ailes once jocularly told a Time reporter (8/22/88): "The only question is whether we depict Willie Horton with a knife in his hand or without it."

This is the guy who runs Fox News!!!,for god`s sake.

Abe Lincoln`s quote comes to mind,when I think about  Roger Ailes(who consults Bush on media matters,btw) and neo-cons in general.

"You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time."

I think I know who the ~some of the people, all the time~ folks are, that Abe is referring to.That describes neo-cons perfectly,who to this day still believe that Iraq had something to do with 9/11.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


This is an interesting artical and mentions republican party chair Rich Bond`s quote years ago, that calling the media folks "liberals" and saying that the media had a liberal bias,was "a strategy"

Playing the "ref",as it were.

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1067


"Years ago, Republican party chair Rich Bond explained that conservatives' frequent denunciations of "liberal bias" in the media were part of "a strategy" (Washington Post, 8/20/92). Comparing journalists to referees in a sports match, Bond explained: "If you watch any great coach, what they try to do is 'work the refs.' Maybe the ref will cut you a little slack next time."



Page: <<   < prev  4 5 6 [7] 8   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy
0.078125