RE: State of the Union Address

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luckydog1 -> RE: State of the Union Address (2/1/2008 9:33:04 AM)
domken you got me in a couple of slight misspeaks, not lies. Willie horton did not commit his first rape or murder after he got Furloughed, but before. thats why he was in prision. You attempted to claim that the furlough law letting out violent offenders was a Republican thing and Dukakis had no part in it. That is a LIE. Horton was released soley because Dukakis vetoed the repeal of the program. Republicans wanted a furlough rehabilitation program for NON VIOLENT offenders, and it was probably a good idea. Al Gore brought the isue to the national level. Dukakis ran racist ads. These are all facts, you don't like them but they are still facts. There is no evidence that the republican party ran the Horton ads. Bushes ad on the furlough program had 30 prisioners going through a revolving door, 25 were white, only 2 of the 30 were black, didnt have hortons picture or name in it. These are facts. Kerry insulted vets before congress. That is a fact. Kerry has reused to open his millitary records as Bush did. That is a fact. One can recieve a "less than honorable discharge" with out a court martial. That is a fact. A lot of Vets hated Kerry long before he ran for president. That is a fact. CBS News did arrange a meeting between Burkett and the Kerry campaign. That is a fact, I have sourced it for you, but you seem unwilling to admit it for some reason. You have provided not a single shred of evidence linking the Bush campaign to the Swifties. That is a fact. Go ahead and slink away pretending you are right and I am lying.

Owner59 -> RE: State of the Union Address (2/1/2008 10:24:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 Well you can call me a Nazi all day long if you like owner, that about what we expect from you. Kerry applied for deferments and when that failed tried to join the reserves, then after that didnt work signed up. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/03/07/wkerr07.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/03/07/ixnewstop.html Not that I actually expect you to read the news article. or admit you were wrong Sorry lucky,this is the lie I was referring. he used his folks influence to get a safe spot in the Navy Any proof of that? And how does a deferment to finish school,compare with being AWOL?

luckydog1 -> RE: State of the Union Address (2/1/2008 10:44:50 AM)
Any proof of bush being AWOL or using influence? I showed that Kerry applied for deferments, which contradicts the narative he ran for president on. Tell you what I will Proove he used influence after you Proove Bush did. The millitary records show that Bush recieved his honorable discharge. Kerry still is hiding the details of that from us. How stupid could you be to run on your service record and then refuse to allow it to be examined? You still have not in any way linked Bush (either of them)to the Swifties or to the Horton ad. It was you wasn't it recently claiming that Bush put one of the Swifties on the Supreme court. Maybe Dukakis should not have let a scary murderer out of Prision for a vacation, if he didn't want to have to answer for it later. It was a very graphic and pertinent illustration of the stupidity of the liberal Democrats and thier policies. I know you want to make such discussions off limits. But they are not.

Owner59 -> RE: State of the Union Address (2/1/2008 11:06:46 AM)
You still have not in any way linked Bush (either of them)to the Swifties or to the Horton ad. "Described by fellow Bush aide Lee Atwater as having "two speeds--attack and destroy," Ailes once jocularly told a Time reporter (8/22/88): "The only question is whether we depict Willie Horton with a knife in his hand or without it." To quote you luckydog,"Consider yourself wrong and corrected".lol Rove was working with the SBVT assholes and Bush`s long time friends financed them. What more connection do you want.You`re like the OJ jury,biased and blind. To claim that is was an independent group working on their own,is so much dog poop.The SBVT were a Bush front group. No one but "cool-aid drinkers" believes those guys.One of the main accusers who claimed that Kerry didn`t earn one of his medals b/c there was no battle,got the same medal from the same frick`n battle. When confronted on this,he clammed up and couldn`t explain this strangest of coincidences.That had the same award,earned in the same battle,that he denied ever happened. One doesn`t need much more info than that,to conclude that the "Swiftboat Veterans for Truth" were bullshitting us.But there were plenty of other contradictions ,as well as outright lies, to destroy the SBVT`s credibility.

luckydog1 -> RE: State of the Union Address (2/1/2008 11:13:06 AM)
Ailes was working with an independant PAC at the time owner. Your unsourced quote doesn't show linkage at all. That Bushes friends funded a pro Bush group doesn't proove linkage. Feel free to cite any actuall llink between Rove and the Swifties, you haven't to date, no one has because it doesn't exist.. You are going to have to actually show me something before I conceed.

Owner59 -> RE: State of the Union Address (2/1/2008 11:42:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 Ailes was working with an independant PAC at the time owner. Your unsourced quote doesn't show linkage at all. That Bushes friends funded a pro Bush group doesn't proove linkage. Feel free to cite any actuall llink between Rove and the Swifties, you haven't to date, no one has because it doesn't exist.. You are going to have to actually show me something before I conceed. Ah c`mon lucky, Roger Ailes and Lee Atwater worked together before, during and after the campain. Why the naive act? To claim that Ailes is independent,is like claiming Alberto Gonzalez is independent. "In 1988 Ailes was credited (along with Lee Atwater) with guiding George H. W. Bush to a come-from-behind [4] victory over Michael Dukakis."

luckydog1 -> RE: State of the Union Address (2/1/2008 11:56:09 AM)
They didn't work together durring the campaign.. You still haven't given any evidence of it. Wikipedia not withstanding.

thetammyjo -> RE: State of the Union Address (2/1/2008 12:29:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 [ I remember these ads well.They played like 20 times a day on every channle.Over and over. Turn the sound down and view them silently,just capturing the images.The photo of Horton,the quintessential monstrous black male image,so often used by whites to demonize black men through out history. This time though, being used to club Dukakis.The technique was just as scary for people today ,as it has been in the past 200 years. Then there`s the words MURDER,RAPE,etc.,etc. over and over. It was definately a racist ad. Gore did not use Horton this way,and he didn`t try to exploit white fear of black men,like Bush and Roger Ailes did. The line about Gore 1st mentioning Horton,is classic half-truth bullshit.While Gore mentions Horton`s name 1st,Gore didn`t do what the republicans did. Though Roger Ailes (the guy who presently runs FoxNews,btw)denied being involved will the ads,he was. "Described by fellow Bush aide Lee Atwater as having "two speeds--attack and destroy," Ailes once jocularly told a Time reporter (8/22/88): "The only question is whether we depict Willie Horton with a knife in his hand or without it." I remember the ad myself even though I couldn't yet vote. My point wasn't about the truthfulness or not of the vague statement that luckdog1 made but that by using a vague statement he opened himself up to being misunderstood which he then complains about. I don't think an ad or any THING for that matter can be racist. It can play on people's fears and the motive behind it can be racist. Again that is sadly the state of politics but it has been for quite some time. The question ahead of us (if you are in the USA that is) for me is how much if any our culture and society has changed. Because right now the Democrats will have either a woman or a non-white man running for president.

Owner59 -> RE: State of the Union Address (2/1/2008 12:33:53 PM)
I don`t think the OJ jury would have convicted w/ out a video tape of the murder.Even then,that might not have mattered. Is that what it`s going to take for you?Talk about being a zealot. The dots were connected years ago, lucky. Rove is no longer officially connected w/ the white house. Are you going to try to convince folks,that Rove and Bush still don`t work together? This is why you would make such a good lackey. Stalin,Pol Pot,Franco,Pinochet,Mao(all assholes,really),all have a small horde of sycophants and pee-ons to defend them and who attempt to revise history for their own selfish ends. The neo-cons love love love pee-ons,too.

Owner59 -> RE: State of the Union Address (2/1/2008 1:35:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thetammyjo quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 [ I remember these ads well.They played like 20 times a day on every channle.Over and over. Turn the sound down and view them silently,just capturing the images.The photo of Horton,the quintessential monstrous black male image,so often used by whites to demonize black men through out history. This time though, being used to club Dukakis.The technique was just as scary for people today ,as it has been in the past 200 years. Then there`s the words MURDER,RAPE,etc.,etc. over and over. It was definately a racist ad. Gore did not use Horton this way,and he didn`t try to exploit white fear of black men,like Bush and Roger Ailes did. The line about Gore 1st mentioning Horton,is classic half-truth bullshit.While Gore mentions Horton`s name 1st,Gore didn`t do what the republicans did. Though Roger Ailes (the guy who presently runs FoxNews,btw)denied being involved will the ads,he was. "Described by fellow Bush aide Lee Atwater as having "two speeds--attack and destroy," Ailes once jocularly told a Time reporter (8/22/88): "The only question is whether we depict Willie Horton with a knife in his hand or without it." I remember the ad myself even though I couldn't yet vote. My point wasn't about the truthfulness or not of the vague statement that luckdog1 made but that by using a vague statement he opened himself up to being misunderstood which he then complains about. I don't think an ad or any THING for that matter can be racist. It can play on people's fears and the motive behind it can be racist. Again that is sadly the state of politics but it has been for quite some time. The question ahead of us (if you are in the USA that is) for me is how much if any our culture and society has changed. Because right now the Democrats will have either a woman or a non-white man running for president. Good points,all. I take this all as a given,and only try to point out the ugliness and who`s responsible. People will make their own choices of who`s more candid and honest. As well as who`s using dirty tricks,like front groups(ie. SCVT),push polling,etc. and those that don`t use them. Just wait for the general election,when these creeps are finished eating their own.This is going to get real f`ugly. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Just look at what the "independent" Roger Ailes gave us. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRRywAlop4Q Just look at the smear.These are a low as they come,these fox ass holes. 'Insight' is NOT part of the Washington Times,as the one Fox ass hole said.That`s a lie. The double punch came when the Fox ass holes blamed Clinton for the story,when they knew it came from a right-wing report ,on Insight`s website. Yup,these race baiting ass holes are as low as come. They also drop Barak`s middle name "Hussein" over and over <nod-nod-wink-wink>Obviously playing to the dopes and bigots of America,Fox`s core audience. For everyone`s info Hussein, is the name of the prophet Muhammad`s grandson,Imam Hussein.He is a major figure in Shiite belief and history .His name is as common as Mike,Bill ,or John Smith,here in the west.It`s no big deal.

Alumbrado -> RE: State of the Union Address (2/1/2008 1:41:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen ? You're talking about the entry in his military records right? You do know he didn't type his personnel jacket himself right? Some clerk typed "V for valor" after his Silver Star just like he had for the Bronze Star right next to it. Blaming Kerry for not knowing the minutia of his awards and not being so anal as to have his entire jacket revised for a single clerical bungle is just what I expect from the right wing. Of course I'm sure I'll be condemned as well since I always had to drag out the book any time I did anything with my ribbon bars since I simply could never remember the precedence of the awards. As to whether Kerry knew the V device wasn't supposed to be on the ribbon, I'm betting that 99+% of servicepeople would wear the ribbon as the awards listed in their jacket required and would never go looking to make sure the clerk who put it together had gotten it right. However I will note that the V is not awarded with Silver Stars since that medal already denotes valor. Kerry was not wearing a Silver Star he did not earn and the worst that can be said is he was technically out of uniform when he wore the V on the ribbon, if he ever did I personally couldn't find any photos that showed him wearing a V on his silver star. So Kerry had no clue, when it was on his Presidential candidate's website for the entire election, and long after, and he refused to address or remove it after being questioned on it openly? Your lack of contact with reality in labeling liberals who stick to the facts as 'right wing' shows your zealous lynch mob bigotry.

DomKen -> RE: State of the Union Address (2/1/2008 1:56:23 PM)
One more time, Alumbrado, do you have a picture of Kerry actually wearing the silver star ribbon with a V? If not its an error in his service jacket which he had virtually no control over. If you're a vet have you checked everything in your personnel file for accuracy? Want to bet a few thousand people pouring over it looking for fault won't find some incredibly petty problem? Ever tried to have anything in your personnel file corrected? I did, I went on leave a couple of days before my department got a new Ensign and even though I was signed out as on leave he reported me UA for 11 days. I got it straightened out when I got off leave, I thought, but didn't know the muster report UA's had gotten into my jacket. I get to my next command and the base Captain wanted to know how I had been UA for almost two weeks without charges being brought and no investigation paperwork being in my file. Not wanting this sort of stupidity following me around I, after getting things straightened out with my new Captain, go over to personnel to see what I've got to do to get it changed. The yeoman in charge laughed at me. It took me until two years after I got out to get the false UA removed from my file. If it was something as silly as an award for valor erroneously calling for the wearing of a V it would still be in my file.

Alumbrado -> RE: State of the Union Address (2/1/2008 2:08:00 PM)
Nice tap dance.. you claimed he was entitled to all the awards he claimed, not that it was a typo, and I asked for proof, which you cannot provide Your current tactic is ignoring the fact that Kerry knowingly posted the award on his now defunct election web-site, and when it was pointed out that he had earned no such award, refused to take it down. Spin that into imaginary photographs of uniforms all you want, the man knowingly claimed a non-existent award, and refuses to recant to this day. You claim otherwise and have no proof beyond 'anyone who sticks to the facts is a right winger'. [8\|] Once you get it though your head that all politicians, including Kerry are compulsive liars, you might be able to lose the blinders.

DomKen -> RE: State of the Union Address (2/1/2008 3:18:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado Nice tap dance.. you claimed he was entitled to all the awards he claimed, not that it was a typo, and I asked for proof, which you cannot provide Your current tactic is ignoring the fact that Kerry knowingly posted the award on his now defunct election web-site, and when it was pointed out that he had earned no such award, refused to take it down. Spin that into imaginary photographs of uniforms all you want, the man knowingly claimed a non-existent award, and refuses to recant to this day. You claim otherwise and have no proof beyond 'anyone who sticks to the facts is a right winger'. [8\|] Once you get it though your head that all politicians, including Kerry are compulsive liars, you might be able to lose the blinders. WTF are you talking about. He posted his military service record which included what awards he had won. Some clerk back in 1970 typed "with V for valor" after both his Bronze Star and Silver Star. He did win the Bronze Star with V and he did win a single Silver Star, which cannot have a V since it is inherently for valor in combat. Get that through your head, he was awarded both the Bronze and Silver Star. Some clerk made a snafu and here you are arguing that he should have corrected his official military record himself, a felony btw if he then represented that modified file as official. This just isn't as big a deal as you're trying to make it. Back when I was in the service Admiral Boorda, then CNO, was found to be wearing two ribbons with valor V's that he had been awarded for service in Vietnam. He killed himself rather than face an inquiry but it later came out that the V pin rules were very vague during Vietnam and he very well may have been wearing the pins because he thought the rules allowed him to. http://www.cnn.com/US/9605/17/boorda.8p/index.html quote: Retired Admiral Elmo Zumwalt, who was chief of naval operations during the Vietnam War, said he believed Boorda was "completely entitled" to wear the pins. Zumwalt said on the CNN program "Larry King Live" that paperwork sometimes did not indicate the V, even though it was authorized. He said he routinely authorized the wearing of the combat "V" pin for Vietnam combat veterans. "That was my intention as an operational commander, and I believe that is the judgment that should prevail," Zumwalt said. "It is a bureaucratic distinction to say, 'Well, it wasn't in the citation.'" Boorda stopped wearing the combat "Vs" once they were questioned, but many think he could have successfully argued that wearing them was no mistake or, at worst, an innocent one. What baffles Boorda's friends is why, if he felt he had hurt the Navy, he didn't simply offer to resign. But few seem to have realize how devoted he was to the Navy and that even the slightest whiff of scandal would devastate him. So Admiral Elmo Zumwalt, who was Commander Naval Forces Vietnam and then CNO says pretty clearly that he was awarding the V for any combat citation. It would be trivially easy with the notation in your file and everyone else wearing V on their Vietnam medals to assume you're supposed to be wearing one in yours. Castigating someone because they were not experts on the details of their service ribbons or because they were unwilling to get into more mudslinging over a clerical snafu is IMO indicitive of a person looking for a reason to dislike someone.

luckydog1 -> RE: State of the Union Address (2/1/2008 4:47:56 PM)
Tammy Jo you are correct, I did not word my point exactly correctly. It was pointed out and I revised my comment. You seemed unaware that Gore brought up the furlough issue and all it contains first,in 88 when he was running for the Dem nomination. And domken seems to think that Dukakis had no part in the program and tried to blame it on Republicans. Which is patently ridiculous and an outright lie. Thank you for helping me keep my points clear and consise.

luckydog1 -> RE: State of the Union Address (2/1/2008 4:50:18 PM)
So owner you are conceding that you have absolutly no evidence of Rove working with the Swifties? Or Bush being involved in the Horton ad?

Alumbrado -> RE: State of the Union Address (2/1/2008 8:06:20 PM)
I'm still waiting from several threads ago for someone to support their claim that US Supreme Court Justice Roberts was the founder of both the SBVFT and a new group.

Alumbrado -> RE: State of the Union Address (2/1/2008 8:09:43 PM)
quote: Castigating someone because they were not experts on the details of their service ribbons or because they were unwilling to get into more mudslinging over a clerical snafu is IMO indicitive of a person looking for a reason to dislike someone. No doubt. Since nothing like that has happened here, and you are now reduced to lying to avoid backing up your original claim that Kerry was entitled to all his claimed awards, which would include the V, feel free to keep spinning straw.

popeye1250 -> RE: State of the Union Address (2/1/2008 10:28:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 You still have not in any way linked Bush (either of them)to the Swifties or to the Horton ad. "Described by fellow Bush aide Lee Atwater as having "two speeds--attack and destroy," Ailes once jocularly told a Time reporter (8/22/88): "The only question is whether we depict Willie Horton with a knife in his hand or without it." To quote you luckydog,"Consider yourself wrong and corrected".lol Rove was working with the SBVT assholes and Bush`s long time friends financed them. What more connection do you want.You`re like the OJ jury,biased and blind. To claim that is was an independent group working on their own,is so much dog poop.The SBVT were a Bush front group. No one but "cool-aid drinkers" believes those guys.One of the main accusers who claimed that Kerry didn`t earn one of his medals b/c there was no battle,got the same medal from the same frick`n battle. When confronted on this,he clammed up and couldn`t explain this strangest of coincidences.That had the same award,earned in the same battle,that he denied ever happened. One doesn`t need much more info than that,to conclude that the "Swiftboat Veterans for Truth" were bullshitting us.But there were plenty of other contradictions ,as well as outright lies, to destroy the SBVT`s credibility. Wow, I'm glad I'm an Independant, we don't have to spend all the time with that back and forth stuff.

DomKen -> RE: State of the Union Address (2/1/2008 11:45:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado quote: Castigating someone because they were not experts on the details of their service ribbons or because they were unwilling to get into more mudslinging over a clerical snafu is IMO indicitive of a person looking for a reason to dislike someone. No doubt. Since nothing like that has happened here, and you are now reduced to lying to avoid backing up your original claim that Kerry was entitled to all his claimed awards, which would include the V, feel free to keep spinning straw. Actually you're the one making stuff up. Here is the first post you made in this thread. quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado quote: What part of his records are you talking about? The only thing a little vague has been his discharge date and the date of his honorable discharge. This has nothing to do with the lies told about him by SBVT. The records of his service in Vietnam are public as are all the documentation surrounding his decorations. [sm=biggrin.gif] Oh, please do show us a link to this 'documentation' about Kerry's Silver Star with V device for valor, which to this day, he has never recanted, even though there simply is no such award. Your blind zealotry in support of one lying politician over the rest of the lying politicians isn't touching, it is repulsive. Where in that post that you quoted did I say he was entitled to wear a medal that doesn't exist? What I said was the record of his awards is public. I can easily enough find the exact wording of both the Silver Star and Bronze Star awards. I never said his personnel file was error free. Please cease trying to put words into my mouth and please quit erecting strawmen to knock down instead of actually responding to what I've posted.

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