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RE: With all the fuss over the smoking bans especially ... - 1/31/2008 5:26:28 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Those were my thoughts too Aneirin - an outright ban just isnt necessary; what was required was to have rooms set aside, with ducting and fans to take the smoke away perhaps.

And landlords not only have the right to refuse to serve those who have had enough - they have a duty to do so. But landlords are in a difficult position - their livelihoods depend on selling alcoholic drinks, and when theyve lost clientele who dont go out any more because they dont want to stand in the rain to smoke, and theyre subject to the whims of overpaid brewery chain executives who want a new Mercedes every year plus a bonus, they have to keep that stuff flowing, regardless of their rights and duties. I worry about Jo, (Missturbation), getting herself a pub to run.

I really wonder whats going on you know? We have this offence called "drunk and disorderly", yet the police dont seem to ever arrest anyone for it, despite the fact that I have a dozen or so offenders past my front door every night. We place a duty on landlords not to serve the already inebriated, but we dont ever seem to hear of any licenses being withdrawn. It seems to me that we have a system behind the scenes which is hellbent on proving that the 24 hour drinking culture ideology is right - and to hell with anyone or anything that might say differently.

Makes me wonder, who might be financing who to make all this possible? Yes, I wonder...

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: With all the fuss over the smoking bans especially ... - 1/31/2008 5:52:44 AM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		Last night whilst walking back home, six miles after having a very good time at my local munch,(buses quit to early), I was told by a newbie I had taken there of an unconscious person he had found in the woods where we walked.

The unconscious person, one of the vagrants was smashed on a couple of bottles of barnstormer. Being a nice guy my mate phoned an ambulance, who came and took the chap away only to find later that he was in a police cell and was to be charged for drunk and disorderly.

I just wondered where drunk and asleep suddenly becomes disorderly. My mate now is sad for getting the chap in trouble with the police.

There is a good pub I attend where I live, good in that the 'manager' an ex landlord runs the pub much like a free house having beer festivals every couple of months.He keeps a tight ship, and he is revered by customers, but there is never any trouble, people here just seem to quaff and fall asleep.Sometimes there are some over exhuberant marines in, but they largely police themselves,I suspect they do not want to lose their closest pub through stupidity.

Now in the winter the pub is quiet, I suspect not much of a living is made, but it exists for the locals. The beer festivals bring in extra custom, as does the occaisional rock music nights. In the warmer months the custom is largely yachties due to the marina nearby. So the pub goes through highs and lows, not a permanent profiteering venture, but it exists and people always go back.

I once wanted a pub myself, my ex being an ex landlady. I realised in order to survive, the pub has to be all things to all people, and I had planned other ventures where the pub was a central hub, campsite, private campsite, accomodation cabins etc. Some of the people I had in mind were SCA/battle re-enectors and their needs, also pagans etc.

A lot of the drinking problems do not occur in the rural areas, the 'parishoners' are not into defecating on their doorstep and value their local pub.

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: With all the fuss over the smoking bans especially ... - 1/31/2008 5:59:50 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Yep - there are only two pubs here that I would ever go into, and that was because it was run by landlords who didnt put up with any crap (the one tells you off if you swear even), and frequented by regulars who put down any trouble before it started and had gravitated there to be away from the less wholesome environments of other pubs. Both did lots of different real ales alongside the standard pisswater produced by the big brands. Both had strict banning policies - one strike and youre out.

But the rest? Well, you know that bar on Star Wars that Obi Wan takes Luke into.....?

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: With all the fuss over the smoking bans especially ... - 1/31/2008 6:29:25 AM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		Yes, I do understand the star wars cantina scenario, it is just a pity light sabers were not reality!

So there does exist two types of drinking hole, the ones in which we both frequent, what I would call connoisseur pubs where taste is important and there the clientele are customers not rabble.

The other being the cheap managed brewery troughs where the emphasis is make money, more of it, lots of it and stuff the consequences. Something I feel is indicative of any business in the uk today.

Gone has customer service and providing the best possible enviroment for people who are valued as customers, except the select little real ale outlets, where the real people go, not to get slaughtered, though sometimes it may happen, but to have an enjoyable time in the prescence of civilised people.Oh, yes, swearing in the pub is also frowned upon and to be honest, in polite company swearing is not heard.

Perhaps one of the causes of drink related bad behaviour is because those that go out drinking do not value their pub, they see it as purely somewhere to buy beer, if they were hoofed out, onto the next pub they go and so on

Perhaps the answer is less pubs, let's get back to what pubs were with landlords and landlady's, people who own a public house and value their house and what happens in it. Maybe that will rekindle the small breweries back into production, catering for those better establishments.

Perhaps the fault may lie with brewery owned pubs and their penchant for making as much cash as possible.

< Message edited by Aneirin -- 1/31/2008 6:33:42 AM >

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: With all the fuss over the smoking bans especially ... - 1/31/2008 6:56:56 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		This is Darcy

A quick observation - I agree with Aneirin about reclaiming what pubs once were. Literally, 'public houses' where one would go to socialise and drink with one's friends, to discuss politics and entertainment, to have a smoke or two (well, I can reminisce, can't I ), and generally enjoy a relaxed, stress-free evening out, before returning home slightly merry and falling into a content sleep.

Instead, the norm seems to be now that pubs are merely brief stopovers between either the emergency room or the gutter, and are populated on the whole by thos with no respect for drink, their fellow man, and particularly themselves.

_____________________________
RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: With all the fuss over the smoking bans especially ... - 1/31/2008 7:02:12 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Yes, I do understand the star wars cantina scenario, it is just a pity light sabers were not reality!

So there does exist two types of drinking hole, the ones in which we both frequent, what I would call connoisseur pubs where taste is important and there the clientele are customers not rabble.


Oooo... you pub snob you.

quote:

Gone has customer service and providing the best possible enviroment for people who are valued as customers, except the select little real ale outlets, where the real people go, not to get slaughtered, though sometimes it may happen, but to have an enjoyable time in the prescence of civilised people.


Now this I find strange.  When I go to Darcys', there are at least a couple of decent public houses.  Where I live, there are 'decent' pubs.  A few years ago, I worked in a pub, that I also count as 'decent'.  You frequent a couple of 'decent' pubs and Ellen has admitted to doing the same.  So they do exist - people talk as if they don't.  Yes there are bad 'everythings'... I just really don't get the whole, lets all be depressed attitude and moan I am witnessing recently.  Does everyone only focus on doom and gloom?  It's like watching 'Grumpy Old Men/Women' here recently and honestly, these little corners of CM where the Brits are congregating are looking more and more like the Queen Vics corner table with Ethal, Mo and Pauline all crowded around bemoaning the state of society today.  Of course, in the 'old days' things were always much better.
 
I don't really care how 'rare' these places might be, they do exist. Why don't people focus on the good, instead of being so damn negative all the time?

quote:

Oh, yes, swearing in the pub is also frowned upon and to be honest, in polite company swearing is not heard.


Ah well, that's me buggered hey.
 
the.dark.


_____________________________
RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: With all the fuss over the smoking bans especially ... - 1/31/2008 7:02:24 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		I would identify four different types of outlet Aneirin (and there's likely more!)

1) The civilised old fashioned pub; attendant and responsible landlord, good selection of real ales, better class of clientele. Often, but not always found in villages.
2) The boozer; also old fashioned, usually quite small, good beer (tied or not), lower socio economic groups as clientele, but decent enough people who happen to like a drink
3) The rough and tumble; old fashioned or new fangled, rubbish beer, packed during the working day and the source of many a split lip and cracked head both within and outside the establishment. If youre "in" with the regulars youre OK, but otherwise its a kicking for setting foot through the door. Good place to buy illicit substances.
4) The pub come club; modern, blaring music, booze piled high and sold cheap to anyone with the money regardless of what state theyre in and thus the source of huge health and social problems

(1) and (2) are good places to go out, but places which are under threat as I see it.

(3) and (4) are where the problems are coming from. (3) we've always had and we need, because it keeps the trouble makers with their own until they leave at least. (4) we dont need in any shape or form, but they seem to be popular and the chains seem to want to make all pubs like this; given the market economy and our disdain for legally contrived social control (except where it suits) we're stuck with them.

E


_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: With all the fuss over the smoking bans especially ... - 1/31/2008 7:11:42 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

This is Darcy

A quick observation - I agree with Aneirin about reclaiming what pubs once were. Literally, 'public houses' where one would go to socialise and drink with one's friends, to discuss politics and entertainment, to have a smoke or two (well, I can reminisce, can't I ), and generally enjoy a relaxed, stress-free evening out, before returning home slightly merry and falling into a content sleep.

Instead, the norm seems to be now that pubs are merely brief stopovers between either the emergency room or the gutter, and are populated on the whole by thos with no respect for drink, their fellow man, and particularly themselves.


Instead, the norm seems to be now that pubs are merely brief stopovers between either the emergency room or the gutter, and are populated on the whole by thos with no respect for drink, their fellow man, and particularly themselves.


A smoking ban did all that?

Are you sure restoring the "freedom" to smoke will make folks become civil once again?

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: With all the fuss over the smoking bans especially ... - 1/31/2008 7:18:42 AM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline

quote:

Oh, yes, swearing in the pub is also frowned upon and to be honest, in polite company swearing is not heard.


Ah well, that's me buggered hey.
 
the.dark.




Dark, profanity is not you, how could those luscious lips and delightful soul utter such words. In truth I have not heard or have I, I have forgotten, disregarded as to me you are not foul mouthed, you have a better ability with our language, an ability to cut deep with words when it is necessary. The occaisional written 'fuck' is of no consequence.

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: With all the fuss over the smoking bans especially ... - 1/31/2008 7:22:35 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Of course the smoking ban isnt totally responsible Owner - but it is another nail in the coffin of a sociable night out. Another element in the demise of pub types (1) and (2) that I mentioned - which pubs either end up closed for lack of clientele as the smokers wont go outside to smoke or end up being turned into pub type (4) that I mentioned.

If recreational social time becomes only about booze - which seems to be the plan, then we can only expect more social and health problems as a result. Social and health problems next to which smoking and second hand smoke are insignificant.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: With all the fuss over the smoking bans especially ... - 1/31/2008 7:25:04 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		What about the overly verbally used fuck?
 
the.dark.

_____________________________
RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: With all the fuss over the smoking bans especially ... - 1/31/2008 7:38:56 AM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		Mind, FUCK is a good word, it just has that very descriptive sound to it, and so expressive.

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: With all the fuss over the smoking bans especially ... - 1/31/2008 7:46:25 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

This is Darcy

A quick observation - I agree with Aneirin about reclaiming what pubs once were. Literally, 'public houses' where one would go to socialise and drink with one's friends, to discuss politics and entertainment, to have a smoke or two (well, I can reminisce, can't I ), and generally enjoy a relaxed, stress-free evening out, before returning home slightly merry and falling into a content sleep.

Instead, the norm seems to be now that pubs are merely brief stopovers between either the emergency room or the gutter, and are populated on the whole by thos with no respect for drink, their fellow man, and particularly themselves.


A smoking ban did all that?

Are you sure restoring the "freedom" to smoke will make folks become civil once again?


This is Darcy
 
*smiles*  No, of course not, on both counts. I'm just getting carried away on my soapbox, Owner

Tune in later for me moaning about how there's nothing decent on television these days, how the youth of today are all illiterate halfwits, how the policies of George W Bush are speeding us all towards Armageddon, and how the ex Rt Hon Anthony Blair is in fact responsible for every bad thing that has ever happened, and ever will happen, to this green unpleasant Isle of mine

_____________________________
RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: With all the fuss over the smoking bans especially ... - 1/31/2008 7:51:11 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		Oh, does that mean I have to clean off that soap box again???
 
the.dark.

_____________________________
RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: With all the fuss over the smoking bans especially ... - 1/31/2008 7:52:52 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Mind, FUCK is a good word, it just has that very descriptive sound to it, and so expressive.


This is Darcy

Fuck is also extremely versatile, as displayed in the following sentence where it is a verb, an adjective and a noun:

"Fuck you, you fucking fuck!"


_____________________________
RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: With all the fuss over the smoking bans especially ... - 1/31/2008 8:38:34 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Of course the smoking ban isnt totally responsible Owner - but it is another nail in the coffin of a sociable night out. Another element in the demise of pub types (1) and (2) that I mentioned - which pubs either end up closed for lack of clientele as the smokers wont go outside to smoke or end up being turned into pub type (4) that I mentioned.

If recreational social time becomes only about booze - which seems to be the plan, then we can only expect more social and health problems as a result. Social and health problems next to which smoking and second hand smoke are insignificant.

E




I band I follow with about a thousand other fanatics have a message board where we talk about the band,live show music archives,ticket trading,rides to shows gotten/given,and tons of banter(like here<chuckles>).

A good 20 % of them smoke,and would if it was ok to in a venue.Half the band smoke also.

Before the ban,a lot of folks in this circle couldn`t see the band play in smaller clubs,because they(like myself)would get sore throats and headaches from the smoke.They would only see the band at outdoor festivals and big halls,where the 2nd hand smoke doesn`t get re-breathed over and over.

Some shows at our favorite venue were approaching,and
what made this hall great from see a band(small,only 300 seats),made it tough to breath if people(even a few) smoked.

I suggested on the message board,that we have a voluntary ban,so our fiends who otherwise couldn`t/wouldn`t come,could come and enjoy the band .We are all very fond of this band and we love our circle of friends/fans that follow them too.

There was a bit of a row and a lot of whining by a few folks,who were crushed that they couldn`t drag off a butt and drink beer at the same time.

I got some nasty emails off-list and I also got (mostly)supportive and positive emails.

Eventually,we as a group limited the smoking to the outside of the building.

Months later,I found out that even the smokers in the band didn`t care to breath 2nd smoke.They were also happy with the public smoking ban.

I never understood this as a rights issue.Clean(er) air is the 1st right.

Not people`s right to pollute it.

I believe that even most smokers are ok with the ban.

It`s just a few squeaky wheels who are pissed that lit butt isn`t in one hand,as the other holds a drink.That`s it ,really.

I also have the right to fuck my g/f,but not in public.

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: With all the fuss over the smoking bans especially ... - 1/31/2008 8:53:38 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		I have never smoked in my life.
Not once.
 
Like they say, you get to choose your friends, but not your family.
 
The smoking ban sucks.  Period.  A lung full of smoke doesn't compare to the carbon footprint people leave behind them in other areas.  If this was a fair ban, I would be all for it.  But it's not.  MPs get to smoke still.
Darcy has to slip outside to smoke now, so what do we do?  I either go with him, or he doesn't go.
 
And seriously - smoke at gigs?  You are worried about a little second hand smoke floating in the air in a room populated by people with germs, colds, none hand washers, smoke machines and rabid sweat problems?
 
the.dark.

_____________________________
RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: With all the fuss over the smoking bans especially ... - 1/31/2008 9:11:10 AM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark


And seriously - smoke at gigs?  You are worried about a little second hand smoke floating in the air in a room populated by people with germs, colds, none hand washers, smoke machines and rabid sweat problems?
 
the.dark.


Not to mention farts

and offensive body odour, where the next couple of days you seem to have picked up a bug somewhere and are feeling generally unwell. A gig venue being a perfect free for all for whatever germs may exist there.Hot, humid,cramped etc.


_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: With all the fuss over the smoking bans especially ... - 1/31/2008 9:28:27 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		It seems that smoking might be a good idea in crowded public spaces as a form of fumigation then?

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: With all the fuss over the smoking bans especially ... - 1/31/2008 9:54:28 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

I have never smoked in my life.
Not once.
 
Like they say, you get to choose your friends, but not your family.
 
The smoking ban sucks.  Period.  A lung full of smoke doesn't compare to the carbon footprint people leave behind them in other areas.  If this was a fair ban, I would be all for it.  But it's not.  MPs get to smoke still.
Darcy has to slip outside to smoke now, so what do we do?  I either go with him, or he doesn't go.
 
And seriously - smoke at gigs?  You are worried about a little second hand smoke floating in the air in a room populated by people with germs, colds, none hand washers, smoke machines and rabid sweat problems?
 
the.dark.

 
I don`t smoke either.That is our free choice.The irony of freedom though,is that some people will choose go against their own best interests.

In America,we have a huge group of working class republicans who continually vote against there own best interests,with tax hikes for themselves and tax brakes for the up-trodden wealthy.Not to mention killing their right to seek justice in court,allowing polluters to pollute more and more,and letting the "Fox(News)" guard the hen house.

Why,nobody knows.

In Iraq,we gave them(including most women) the right to vote against women`s rights,as we know them in the west.Why did they do that? Fucked if I know.

Why is 2nd hand smoke considered as toxic as radon gas or formaldehyde?

And how, after breathing an amount of pollutants/toxic gas,is breathing more somehow not worse?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Does secondhand smoke contain harmful chemicals?

Yes. Of the more than 4,000 chemicals that have been identified in secondhand tobacco smoke, at least 250 are known to be harmful, and 50 of these are known to cause cancer. These chemicals include (1):
  • arsenic (a heavy metal toxin)
  • benzene (a chemical found in gasoline)
  • beryllium (a toxic metal)
  • cadmium (a metal used in batteries)
  • chromium (a metallic element)
  • ethylene oxide (a chemical used to sterilize medical devices)
  • nickel (a metallic element)
  • polonium–210 (a chemical element that gives off radiation)
  • vinyl chloride (a toxic substance used in plastics manufacture)

      http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/Tobacco/ETS#q6

      "MPs get to smoke still."
       
      As for hypocrisy in  politicians,welcome to planet earth.

      If people want the run for office on ending the ban,have at it.And good luck.

      < Message edited by Owner59 -- 1/31/2008 10:01:57 AM >

      (in reply to RCdc)
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