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RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/30/2008 2:54:40 PM

LadyEllen

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Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Lady E i dont think its possible to research and plan for the long term, say more than 20 years ahead. Reason being we cant tell what new diseases or health problems will occur or the impact they will have. The problems with the NHS vary from trust to trust, for example i live in an area with a very high proportion of elderly people, so my local hospitals have to aim more towards age specific problems. People need to remember the NHS isnt just about hospitals, it also covers GPs and Dentists. Overall its a pretty good service.

Naturally one cannot plan for the unforeseen - but one can plan using demographic information and get a reasonabe forecast of requirements. To not plan would be most unwise, however inaccurate the result might prove to be.

But thats not the sort of planning I meant. I meant planning of the way its organised and administered - which from my impression is where we waste too much expense, which then impacts on the funding available for treatment. Were this not the case then we wouldnt have Health Trusts having to merge for want of funds and yet being able to still organise and administer the two merged functions with fewer staff.

E

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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to Politesub53)

Post #: 21

RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/30/2008 3:14:35 PM

GoddessDustyGold

Posts: 2822
Joined: 4/11/2004
From: Arizona
Status: offline

~FR~
I am consistenly amazed at the number of people who complain about our governement over and over, and then think the solution is to hand the government more power over our lives.
Whatever happened to "We the people..."

_____________________________

Dusty
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
B Franklin
Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
The Hidden Kingdom

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 22

RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/30/2008 3:22:30 PM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold

~FR~
I am consistenly amazed at the number of people who complain about our governement over and over, and then think the solution is to hand the government more power over our lives.
Whatever happened to "We the people..."

Hi GoddessDustyGold

We are the government... The government’s job is to do as we say for the common good. Believe me without government and rules you would still start work at age 13 and work 12 hours a day 6 days a week and still have no healthcare.

Any system has to have rules and administrators to function… who do you envision administrating any change… I hope not the insurance companies.

Butch

(in reply to GoddessDustyGold)

Post #: 23

RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/30/2008 4:24:57 PM

GoddessDustyGold

Posts: 2822
Joined: 4/11/2004
From: Arizona
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold

~FR~
I am consistenly amazed at the number of people who complain about our governement over and over, and then think the solution is to hand the government more power over our lives.
Whatever happened to "We the people..."

Hi GoddessDustyGold

We are the government... The government’s job is to do as we say for the common good. Believe me without government and rules you would still start work at age 13 and work 12 hours a day 6 days a week and still have no healthcare.

Any system has to have rules and administrators to function… who do you envision administrating any change… I hope not the insurance companies.

Butch

Yes, we are. Or we are supposed to be...
That is My point, Butch.
Are we being fairly represented now? Or are we just going along with the programs that are slid in under the gate, with never any real knowledge until it is too late and we begin to reap the wreckage of one failed social program after another. The American Public continues to sawallow the bill of goods that is getting easier and easier to sell. "Vote for me! I will make your problems go away!"

What makes anyone think that putting "the government" in charge of our health care is suddenly going to make it all better? All we are doing is saying "Yeah, Boss! Raise our taxes and give us more, and more and more!" Except that they make the rules. They take our money and then they tell us how it will be spent (or not spent). The same things that are refused now for payment, will be just as refused by a Universal Health plan. Only now, there will be absolutely no competition for your business. Unless you are very rich. Then you can (and they will) maintain private health insurance on the side.
In fact, I am willing to bet that things will get much worse.
Any takers?

Edit: The common good? Who defines that, Butch? The common good is obeying traffic signals and maintaining safe roads. The common good is public schools (paid for with property taxes, if you please) and safe tap water.  Is anyone paying My water bill? I think I pay that each month out of My surplus income, along with a few extra taxes. My personal health issues are just that...personal. There is no common good about it.
Will somebody please, please, please list for Me all the wonderful things we get from our government with all the taxes we are already paying? All we are doing, in My opinion, is feeding an already bloated beauracracy that wants nothing more than to see how fast they can add to the bloat.

< Message edited by GoddessDustyGold -- 1/30/2008 4:31:40 PM >

_____________________________

Dusty
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
B Franklin
Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
The Hidden Kingdom

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 24

RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/30/2008 4:28:11 PM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Universal health care is great - but by our experience its very, very expensive,

I'm in Upstate NY. Have Group Health Coverage via the local Chamber of Commerce for our Sole-Prop LLC.

I'm paying $14,400 USD/year to cover my family through a HMO.

More expensive than that?

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 25

RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/30/2008 4:34:48 PM

GoddessDustyGold

Posts: 2822
Joined: 4/11/2004
From: Arizona
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Universal health care is great - but by our experience its very, very expensive,

I'm in Upstate NY. Have Group Health Coverage via the local Chamber of Commerce for our Sole-Prop LLC.

I'm paying $14,400 USD/year to cover my family through a HMO.

More expensive than that?

How big is your family? And what is your co-pay?

_____________________________

Dusty
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
B Franklin
Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
The Hidden Kingdom

(in reply to farglebargle)

Post #: 26

RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/30/2008 4:43:14 PM

Stephann

Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

Edwards wanted universal health care. Clinton and Obama only want to make health insurance more affordable. How does that help anyone when insurance companies refuse to pay anyway? How many more innocent people have to die slow and painful deaths because the stupid insurance companies call treatments that would save their lives "experimental" and refuse to pay? The government outlawed many types of execution for death row inmates because they were considered "cruel" and "inhumane," but has no interest in stopping insurance companies from causing innocent law abiding citizens to die cruelly and inhumanely. God bless America, the land of opportunity to die a slow and painful death through no fault of your own.

Health care, at any cost, means health care not worth having.

Until we are willing to catagorically accept a cap on the amount one person's life is worth, medically, universal health care will mean either

a) 'Universal' health care quality will plummet to a point where the only people who can afford decent treatment will be those who can afford to pay out of pocket, or;

b) the health care industry will implode, leaving only those who can afford to fly to Canada or Europe with access to decent health care.

We're already 10 trillion dollars in debt; it's a bit like a homeless man pounding on the window of an expensive restaurant and demanding a fillet mignon and a $100 bottle of wine.

Stephan

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"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to defiantbadgirl)

Post #: 27

RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/30/2008 5:20:03 PM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Universal health care is great - but by our experience its very, very expensive,

I'm in Upstate NY. Have Group Health Coverage via the local Chamber of Commerce for our Sole-Prop LLC.

I'm paying $14,400 USD/year to cover my family through a HMO.

More expensive than that?

How big is your family? And what is your co-pay?

2 Adults, 2 Kids... Co-pays are like 25 bucks for office visits/ 500 bucks for hospital...

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to GoddessDustyGold)

Post #: 28

RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/30/2008 5:26:14 PM

SugarMyChurro

Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline

Stephann:

I actually have no idea what you are saying. Europe/Canada have it good, but we can't have a healthcare program like that here?

Why not?

(in reply to Stephann)

Post #: 29

RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/30/2008 5:34:48 PM

Stephann

Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline

I'm not saying they have it good; consider where most of their medical technology comes from? Where their best doctors are trained?

Our health care is the best in the world. We expect everyone in this country to have access to it. The Italians, arguably, build the best automobiles in the world. Yet how many of those Italians own one of those machines?

Until we can accept that not everyone in this country can have the health care equivalent of a Lamborghini or a Ferrari, we must continue to either accept some people will drive Lamborghini's while others walk.

Stephan

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)

Post #: 30

RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/30/2008 6:10:53 PM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

Edwards wanted universal health care. Clinton and Obama only want to make health insurance more affordable. How does that help anyone when insurance companies refuse to pay anyway? How many more innocent people have to die slow and painful deaths because the stupid insurance companies call treatments that would save their lives "experimental" and refuse to pay? The government outlawed many types of execution for death row inmates because they were considered "cruel" and "inhumane," but has no interest in stopping insurance companies from causing innocent law abiding citizens to die cruelly and inhumanely. God bless America, the land of opportunity to die a slow and painful death through no fault of your own.

defiantbadgirl:
It is not the innocent who die it is just the poor...who gives a fuck?
By poor I mean those without adequate funds to pay for health care.
By who gives a fuck I mean who with power cares what those without power want.
thompson

(in reply to defiantbadgirl)

Post #: 31

RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/30/2008 6:26:18 PM

christine1

Posts: 6155
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From: i'm headed to HIM...
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the thing that scares me about universal health care is what it would do to taxes....canada has something around 50% taxes and then months and years waiting for a medical procedure. i'm not sure which is worse, the problems we have now, or those that would be created....i think it's probably all a toss up, but who knows..i'm definitely not an expert on the subject.

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Post #: 32

RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/30/2008 6:27:53 PM

SugarMyChurro

Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline

You know, I really don't expect everything to be free except basic healthcare. Maybe instead of the Lamborghini version of healthcare for all maybe we could settle on the Honda version of healthcare for all.

Your attempt at hyperbole reveals a lack of an actual argument here.

(in reply to thompsonx)

Post #: 33

RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/30/2008 6:30:32 PM

EponasChylde

Posts: 65
Joined: 12/31/2007
Status: offline

Universal health care is the WORSE thing that could ever happen to the middle class American.

What will happen is EVERYBODY (including the lazy bums, crack ho's, etc) will have health care but the health care quality overall will be mediocre and they'll be less and less likely to cover elective procedures.

Right now, those of us with decent jobs have great health care and the losers have nothing...which is fine with me. It's called Capitalism and it's the cornerstone of America. Those who work hard and do well succeed and prosper...the lazy ones suffer and are miserable. The last thing we need is to give the government more power over our lives.

Want good health care? Get a good job. Or suffer. Doesn't matter one way or another to me, because I happen to have excellent health care that only costs me $66/month. Do not ask me to pay taxes to cover the health care of drug addicts, crack whores, and lazy people who don't want to work.

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*aka geekygirl*

(in reply to thompsonx)

Post #: 34

RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/30/2008 6:34:58 PM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: christine1

the thing that scares me about universal health care is what it would do to taxes....canada has something around 50% taxes and then months and years waiting for a medical procedure. i'm not sure which is worse, the problems we have now, or those that would be created....i think it's probably all a toss up, but who knows..i'm definitely not an expert on the subject.

christine:
If you were to add up state and federal income tax,Social Security tax,sales tax,excise tax you are over 50% and still no health care.
thompson

(in reply to christine1)

Post #: 35

RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/30/2008 6:36:42 PM

christine1

Posts: 6155
Joined: 12/15/2007
From: i'm headed to HIM...
Status: offline

yes, i am paying all of those taxes, but aside from that, i do have health care because i'm working my ass off for it and i'm not having to wait months or years for a procedure when i need one...go figure.

< Message edited by christine1 -- 1/30/2008 7:28:50 PM >

_____________________________

i am woman! er, godzilla! hear me roar!

http://wavcentral.com/cgi-bin/log/log.cgi?id=2856&sound=/sounds/movies/godzilla/roar.mp3

He's the "boom" overwhelming...

He is my Master, my lover, my best friend my everything.

(in reply to thompsonx)

Post #: 36

RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/30/2008 6:44:32 PM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Popeye… My poor doctor works 7 days a week… always on call… around sickness all day long. It took him years and years and a lot of money for his education. If he did not make good money I’m sure he would pick another profession.

Butch

Butch:
Your doctor represents a single digit percentage of doctors in this country. Most (the overwhelming majority) work 4 days a week.
Med school is 2 years long like most other doctoral degrees.
I do not see how universal health care would lower any doctors pay.
thompson

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 37

RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/30/2008 6:46:40 PM

SugarMyChurro

Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
If you were to add up state and federal income tax,Social Security tax,sales tax,excise tax you are over 50% and still no health care.

Exactly. Like any good conservative, I want goods and services for the money already being paid. Not wars in foreign countries over resources we don't need if we'd just move away from oil and coal.

People, wake up! The money is there and being misspent.

Linking healthcare with employment makes our U.S. goods and services too expensive everywhere else. Stupid move.

(in reply to thompsonx)

Post #: 38

RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/30/2008 6:55:01 PM

Stephann

Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline

See, my issue isn't that the money is just being misspent... it's that the money has already been misspent...

It will be a very, very long time until this war debt is paid off, if ever. It stands as a testament that we could not afford this war in the first place, any more than we can afford multi-million dollar procedures for every person by virtue of being US Citizens.

What I am in favor of, is multi billion dollar programs to promote health in the form of free vaccines, exercise classes, nutritional education, increased programs for drug, alcohol, and tobacco education, mammograms, annual physicals, and funding of emergancy care (with a very clear cap) for those who require it. Responsible use of funding doesn't mean to slaughter the cow in search of more milk inside.

Stephan

Stephan

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)

Post #: 39

RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/30/2008 7:00:57 PM

luckydog1

Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline

Don't suppose you have a source for the claim of over 50% of income goes out in taxes, do you thompson?

I am self employed, so pay not SS/fica, but an extra fee put on my Income tax, it is in the low 20s%. No sales tax, no state tax, I do pay quite a bit in gas taxes and tire stud taxes (I guess those are 'excise'), but I get to write off a lot of the gas tax.

I think the 50% number is a large exageration.

I think our health system in America is nuts and needs major reform. But we do have to realise that doctors do not just magically appear, and we are going to have to create more of them before more health care can be dispensed. I think the idea that most doctors work 4 days a week is nonsense.

Imagine a system where you got a 105% tax refund for every allowable dollar spent on medical care (Boob job for breast cancer survivor allowable, boob job for Trixie to make her old man happy not allowed). This would stimulate medical delivery and remove the cost from the user, you could get a garunteed 5% return (not a huge payoput, but garunteed) on providing health care to other people. A supply side reform instead of a socialised model.

But I would rather have the UK version than what we have now.

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)

Post #: 40

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