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RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/30/2008 9:41:13 PM

popeye1250

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

The whole thing is that Healthcare shouldn't be a "business."
There shouldn't be any *profit* in it.
Again, we need to outlaw "Lobbyists" in Washington, D.C.
Big Pharma has them, the Insurance companies have them even the AMA has them!

Popeye… My poor doctor works 7 days a week… always on call… around sickness all day long. It took him years and years and a lot of money for his education. If he did not make good money I’m sure he would pick another profession.

I sure don’t begrudge Doctors and nurses their money… but I do think insurance and pharmaceutical companies take advantage of the physical misfortune of others.

Butch

Butch, you took me out of context there.
Of course Doctors and Nurses and other healthcare professionals should be well paid and they would be under a national healthcare system.
I meant that we need to get Insurance companies and lobbyists out of the picture. No need for them in a national healthcare system where we all pay for healthcare and don't have a profit motivated middleman like the insurance cos.
If they can get away with only paying out 40% of premiums each year that leaves 60% for them doesn't it?
That's,.......I can't count that high. They make ***ENOURMOUS*** profits.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 61

RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/30/2008 9:46:41 PM

stella41b

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I stand by the NHS in Britain. It's neither perfect or super efficient but I would argue that it saves far more lives than it loses.

Three basic things which should be universal in my opinion are healthcare, education and the justice system. Anyone irrespective of who they are and their income or lack of it should have unrestricted access to primary healthcare, education and the means of protecting oneself, one's family and one's home and this to me is the fundamental basis of a free, democratic, and civilized society.

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Post #: 62

RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/30/2008 9:57:04 PM

kdsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Butch:
Your doctor represents a single digit percentage of doctors in this country. Most (the overwhelming majority) work 4 days a week.
Med school is 2 years long like most other doctoral degrees.
I do not see how universal health care would lower any doctors pay.
thompson

Hi Thompsonx

This from the US Department of labor….

Many physicians and surgeons work long, irregular hours. Over one-third of full-time physicians and surgeons worked 60 hours or more a week in 2006. Only 8 percent of all physicians and surgeons worked part-time, compared with 15 percent for all occupations. Physicians and surgeons must travel frequently between office and hospital to care for their patients. While on call, a physician will deal with many patients’ concerns over the phone and make emergency visits to hospitals or nursing homes.
This also on training….

Education and training. Formal education and training requirements for physicians are among the most demanding of any occupation—4 years of undergraduate school, 4 years of medical school, and 3 to 8 years of internship and residency, depending on the specialty selected. A few medical schools offer combined undergraduate and medical school programs that last 6 years rather than the customary 8 years.

Not 2 years!

Butch

(in reply to thompsonx)

Post #: 63

RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/30/2008 10:02:57 PM

kdsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Butch, you took me out of context there.
Of course Doctors and Nurses and other healthcare professionals should be well paid and they would be under a national healthcare system.
I meant that we need to get Insurance companies and lobbyists out of the picture. No need for them in a national healthcare system where we all pay for healthcare and don't have a profit motivated middleman like the insurance cos.
If they can get away with only paying out 40% of premiums each year that leaves 60% for them doesn't it?
That's,.......I can't count that high. They make ***ENOURMOUS*** profits.

I sure agree with all you say...except...I think doctors and specialist salaries will fall in a totally regulated healthcare system. That 8 to 16 years of education will not pay off I'm afraid.

I have no statistics but I would guess that in Canada and UK salaries are lower than the US for physicians or perhaps there is a shortage of doctors causing a lot of back ups in treatment. ... Pure speculation on my part however.

Butch

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 64

RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/30/2008 10:08:42 PM

popeye1250

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From: New Hampshire
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I read somewhere a few years ago that Doctors "average" $119k per year depending on specialty.
Not a lot of money really. Master Plumbers make a lot more as do some Airlines pilots.
A Capt on some big city Fire Depts makes about $120k.
Of course some surgeons and other specialties "average" far higher.
Some heart surgeons make $300k or more per year.
Now,...insurance executives make $millions$ of dollars per year.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 65

RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/30/2008 10:09:08 PM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

...I think doctors and specialist salaries will fall in a totally regulated healthcare system. That 8 to 16 years of education will not pay off I'm afraid.

...well, the amount they get from a universal system may be less......but a couple of caveats, firstly there is a flaw in the argument i've quoted. You assume that the degree to which it pays off now is the very minimum that shows a return on their investment. That assumption may not be true. Secondly, once a Doctor in a universal system gets to a certain level of responsibility they usually find time to do a bit of private practise on the side. No universal system i know of prevents this. It is entirely possible that the average income of doctors wont change a bit. Just come from more than one source.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 66

RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/30/2008 10:09:08 PM

Moloch

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moloch

OMG! Insurance companies are there to make a profit?! Some one call the police we have capitalism in progress some one must stop it!
Step in regulate, force? What is this Are you people even from US?
Hey If I cant afford a car and I need one to get around can I force GM or FORD to sell me one for 50 bucks?
Insurance companies are private enteties, read the fine print before handing over the money, its a hard concept to swallow for generation "entitled" but YOU are responsible for your OWN well being.
Beore I started racing I dug around checked if my insurance company would cover me in case of an accident and they didnt , I didnt go to Uncle Sam and say "twist this corporations arm" I simply went to another insurance cmpany that WILL cover me when Im racing problem sloved.
Its a shitty examply when at comes to people with chronic or terminall illness, because I dont know of any insurance company that would cover them.
But the point Im trying to make you cant complain about insurance companies because they are private enteties leave then out of legislation we are not a socialist country yet...

Moloch:
You most likely went to a publicly funded school. You drive on publicly funded roads. You get speeding tickets from publicly funded cops. You get your mail from publicly funded postal service. You receive fire protection from publicly funded fire departments. I could fill up fifty pages of publicly funded services that you receive but I think you get my point. Humans form themselves into societies not so that the rich can aggrandize themselves at the expense of the not rich but to make life richer and fuller and less hazardous for all the members of that society. The U.S. is the only advanced society in the world that does not have universal health care.
You do not own anything or know anything that you have done all by yourself. Everything you know or have or expect to know or have is the result of those who have gone before you. This is called society. What are you doing to make those who come after you part of a better society?
thompson

Great so by your logic YOU should pay for my speeding tickets, If I am going to pay for YOUR health insurance.
The Feds Tax me and ticket me to fund those "schools" and "public roads"
I dont want to pay for some iditos surgery because he eats too much and or smokes too much, or some other horse crap.

"You do not own anything or know anything that you have done all by yourself. Everything you know or have or expect to know or have is the result of those who have gone before you. This is called society. What are you doing to make those who come after you part of a better society?
thompson "

I pay my taxes, so you can drive on the roads that I paid for take your kids to school that I paid for, in case of fire call the fire dept. that I paid for. I dont owe society shit, my parents just like me paid taxes, every thing I got I paid for.

(in reply to thompsonx)

Post #: 67

RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/30/2008 10:13:07 PM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moloch

Great so by your logic YOU should pay for my speeding tickets, If I am going to pay for YOUR health insurance.

....if your speeding ticket means that industry loses fewer working days to illness a year, increases spending power among the working poor and ensures that no child dies of a preventable disease or a treatable injury then sure, pay the damn ticket.

If not, you're comparing apples and oranges.

A universal system actually benefits everyone, your speeding ticket does not.

(in reply to Moloch)

Post #: 68

RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/30/2008 10:14:51 PM

kdsub

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Joined: 8/16/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

I read somewhere a few years ago that Doctors "average" $119k per year depending on specialty.
Not a lot of money really. Master Plumbers make a lot more as do some Airlines pilots.
A Capt on some big city Fire Depts makes about $120k.
Of course some surgeons and other specialties "average" far higher.
Some heart surgeons make $300k or more per year.
Now,...insurance executives make $millions$ of dollars per year.

I found this popeye on the Department of Labor website. A few years old though

Earnings

Back to Top
Earnings of physicians and surgeons are among the highest of any occupation. The Medical Group Management Association’s Physician Compensation and Production Survey, reports that median total compensation for physicians in 2005 varied by specialty, as shown in table 2. Total compensation for physicians reflects the amount reported as direct compensation for tax purposes, plus all voluntary salary reductions. Salary, bonus and incentive payments, research stipends, honoraria, and distribution of profits were included in total compensation.

Table 2. Median compensation for physicians, 2005.

Specialty
Less than two years in specialty
Over one year in specialty

Anesthesiology
$259,948
$321,686

Surgery: General
228,839
282,504

Obstetrics/gynecology: General
203,270
247,348

Psychiatry: General
173,922
180,000

Internal medicine: General
141,912
166,420

Pediatrics: General
132,953
161,331

Family practice (without obstetrics)
137,119
156,010

Footnotes:
(NOTE) Source: Medical Group Management Association, Physician Compensation and Production Report, 2005.

Self-employed physicians—those who own or are part owners of their medical practice—generally have higher median incomes than salaried physicians. Earnings vary according to number of years in practice, geographic region, hours worked, skill, personality, and professional reputation. Self-employed physicians and surgeons must provide for their own health insurance and retirement.

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 69

RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/30/2008 10:16:18 PM

Hippiekinkster

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From: Liechtenstein
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Stela41b: "I stand by the NHS in Britain. It's neither perfect or super efficient but I would argue that it saves far more lives than it loses."

I cannot recall anyone from the UK that has offered up an opinion on Healthcare who has offered to trade the UK system for the US system.

Oh, I know, these Ferriners, they don't know when they have it good, and they need to unnerstann the US of A is the Gratest Cuntry of all bar none or not many.

Vive la France! Heil Deutschland! The Sun Never Sets on the British Empire! (but they all, secretly, want to be Americans. I know. Country radio told me so.)

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 70

RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/30/2008 10:18:03 PM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

Vive la France! Heil Deutschland! The Sun Never Sets on the British Empire! (but they all, secretly, want to be Americans. I know. Country radio told me so.)

(peeks round to make sure he isn't being watched by Patriot Act wielding Dick Cheney clones)

.....country radio may be wrong......

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)

Post #: 71

RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/30/2008 10:22:28 PM

popeye1250

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From: New Hampshire
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KD, that may be true.
Like I said that was a few years ago. But, $200k isn't a lot of money in a city like Boston or N.Y.
Another thing about National Healthcare, if we need doctors, nurses and other healthcare people "we" the system, could send them to school.
Then we'd have plenty of doctors and nurses and they wouldn't have school loan debts of $100k-$300k when they got out.
Hmm, I may vote for Hillary Clinton just to get national healthcare then shitcan her ass after 4 years.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 72

RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/30/2008 10:22:40 PM

Moloch

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Sorry I dont expect any one to pay for my problems and I sure as hell wont pay for some one else.
If it is TRULY universal and doesnt discriminate against a persons income I just might give it a shot.
And no it doesnt benefit "every one" people who can afford insurance or have insurance are simply getting ripped off and paying for other peoples health care.
Universal healthcare universally sucks. Ask a canadian what doctor he goes to to get dental work done...

(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 73

RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/30/2008 10:26:45 PM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moloch

Sorry I dont expect any one to pay for my problems and I sure as hell wont pay for some one else.
If it is TRULY universal and doesnt discriminate against a persons income I just might give it a shot.
And no it doesnt benefit "every one" people who can afford insurance or have insurance are simply getting ripped off and paying for other peoples health care.
Universal healthcare universally sucks. Ask a canadian what doctor he goes to to get dental work done...

...or ask a Canadian employer whether he'd prefer to lose the people hours he loses now to illness and injury, or whether he'd rather lose twice that or more.
Then ask a Canadian economist what those extra hours mean to the economy and how much it effects other key economic indicators.
Then look at your own life and see how those same economic indicators have an effect on your own wealth.

Universal healthcare is not an attack on those who can afford healthcare already, it's an indirect benefit to them.

(in reply to Moloch)

Post #: 74

RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/30/2008 10:28:21 PM

kdsub

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I just ran a search of mean salaries in the UK and if the exchange rate is about 2 to one then US Doctors are making more than twice the salary then their UK counter parts... but could have the numbers wrong.

Butch

(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 75

RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/30/2008 10:32:26 PM

popeye1250

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From: New Hampshire
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Butch, yeah, it's $2 per Pound.
Schools in the health industry occupations could be free to attend under a national healthcare plan.
If you were GREEDY and wanted to make a lot of MONEY you could go to school to be an Insurance executive.

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 1/30/2008 10:36:22 PM >

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

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Post #: 76

RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/30/2008 10:48:31 PM

defiantbadgirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Hmm, I may vote for Hillary Clinton just to get national healthcare then shitcan her ass after 4 years.

Hillary Clinton isn't going for a national health care system. Her idea is subsidies to make health insurance more affordable. Health insurance companies turn people down and look for reasons not to pay. I don't see that as much of an improvement. Obama has a similar plan. Edwards was the one who wanted universal health care and he is no longer in the race.

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Only in the United States is the health of the people secondary to making money. If this is what "capitalism" is about, I'll take socialism any day of the week.

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(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 77

RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/30/2008 10:54:08 PM

carlie310

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I wonder at those DoL stats. Are they looking at the AGI of those doctors? The business expenses--malpractice insurance, business office staff--may not be taken into account.

Someone up-thread mentioned a water birth, and said that UK was only industrialized nation she could have done one with just her midwife. That's not true. There are midwives here in birthing centers that perform water births. (SE USA)

One interesting note about Medicare reimbursements, and insurance payments in general. If a doctor practices in Boston MA and another in Atlanta GA, the one in Boston will be paid more for the same procedures than the one in Atlanta. Generally private insurers do the same thing--poke around for the Usual Customary Reasonable (UCR) payment. They look around for anyone who is charging less for a certain procedure, and match their payment. That means that all doctors, regardless of skill or talent, get the same amount. (I've always been entertained that somehow every provider charges more than UCR. Lies, damn lies and statistics.)

The end result is that to make the same money, doctors have to see more patients in less time. Think about that the next time you're cooling your heels in the waiting room, or given the bum's rush out of the waiting room.

The better solution that I see is to have a "safety net" of sorts to catch those who need it--the elderly, the disabled, the working poor, children of same. Provide incentives to employees much like the cafeteria plans for medical expenses. Eliminate the insurance company, save for catastrophic care, which is essentially all my current coverage is, it's so crappy. Pass those savings to the employee, encouraging them to use that cafeteria.

I have heard of and met several doctors who are preferring to go with patient pay only. They can charge less, hire fewer employees and be able to practice medicine without the actuaries looking over their shoulders.

Because of the size of this country, the bloat in anything the government takes on and the limitless opportunity for fraud, I'd hesitate to be in favor of more government intervention in insurance. (And I'll be honest: I've had more than a few run-ins with horrible insurance companies that I don't think the typical person would have seen money from, but because of my experience in medical billing, I got it. I hate insurance companies.)

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 78

RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/30/2008 11:01:49 PM

defiantbadgirl

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Health insurance shouldn't be made more affordable, it should be eliminated. What's the point in having insurance companies when they are always looking for ways out of paying?

_____________________________

Only in the United States is the health of the people secondary to making money. If this is what "capitalism" is about, I'll take socialism any day of the week.

Collared by MartinSpankalot May 13 2008

(in reply to carlie310)

Post #: 79

RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/30/2008 11:02:33 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
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Yeah, Healthcare should be about Healthcare not profits for insurance companies.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to carlie310)

Post #: 80

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