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RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/31/2008 12:36:20 PM

carlie310

Posts: 256
Joined: 9/23/2007
Status: offline

I'm replying even though luckydog1 said to drop it, because you edited your question. It almost sounds like you are being sincere. I may be wrong, in which case I will owe luckydog1 an apology and you can do the happy dance having gotten me a good one.

When you go to med school, you pay for 4 years. Yes, you will have a clinical componenent to your studies, but that consists mostly of standing behind the real doctor and pretending to look smart. http://med.emory.edu/admissions/mdcurriculum.cfm

After you graduate from medical school, you go through the match to get an internship. Then you start getting money.

Scroll up-thread for facts on typical work hours for physicians.

I got that last figure while I was golfing with your doctor.

(in reply to thompsonx)

Post #: 101

RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/31/2008 1:10:27 PM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: carlie310

I'm replying even though luckydog1 said to drop it, because you edited your question. It almost sounds like you are being sincere. I may be wrong, in which case I will owe luckydog1 an apology and you can do the happy dance having gotten me a good one.

When you go to med school, you pay for 4 years. Yes, you will have a clinical componenent to your studies, but that consists mostly of standing behind the real doctor and pretending to look smart. http://med.emory.edu/admissions/mdcurriculum.cfm

After you graduate from medical school, you go through the match to get an internship. Then you start getting money.

Scroll up-thread for facts on typical work hours for physicians.

I got that last figure while I was golfing with your doctor.

carlie:
The two years "you stand behind a real doctor trying to look smart" is called internship. You get paid for internship. Once your internship is completed you serve a "residency" for anywhere from three to seven years depending on your specialty. You also get paid for residency.
I have no desire to "get you a good one" or to do a "happy dance". This is a discussion board for the exchange of ideas and opinions not a place for "chairbourn rangers" to score debating points.
thompson

(in reply to carlie310)

Post #: 102

RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/31/2008 1:23:45 PM

carlie310

Posts: 256
Joined: 9/23/2007
Status: offline

Wrong. The internship is not part of medical school training, and involves more than standing behind real doctors. Internship is the first year of residency. It is, however, a paid position.

I gave the link to Emory because on their website, they clearly lay out that the clinical portion of medical school is called SUB internship. Their program involves both clinical and classroom components for all four years.

4 years of medical school, go through the match to be hooked up with a residency program. The first year after you graduate is Internship or PGY1. Then you'll have a few more years, depending on the specialty.

I'm done, though, because you are so convinced of your own rightness. Talk to your doctor the next time you golf with him, he'll set you straight. Call the med school of your choice, they'll be glad to tell you how many years they expect you to pay tuition.

ETA: my apologies to luckydog, you were right.

< Message edited by carlie310 -- 1/31/2008 1:24:21 PM >

(in reply to thompsonx)

Post #: 103

RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/31/2008 1:26:00 PM

GoddessDustyGold

Posts: 2822
Joined: 4/11/2004
From: Arizona
Status: offline

Actually Thompson, that is not correct. When they are working those last 2 years of med school on their rotations, they are still med students. Some of it is classroom and some on site. They continue to pay tuition, and the rotations at the hospiotals, etc. are free labor as well as a learning and constant review period. It is not until they get their M.D. (after 4 years) that they have to match for an internship position. They must do a one year internship in order to be able to actually hang out a shingle. (That would be a GP or FP going into private practive or joining another private practice group. No specialty involved.) They are paid, albeit not too well. After that, any specialties they are looking for, in which they must be board certified is additional time (3 to 8 years) when they are not on their own, still under constant review as they are honing their skills in the specialty they choose. They are paid, but they are on salaries, and those salaries are not fat.
If they do not do their one year internship, they cannot legally practice medicine, despite the degree from medical school.

_____________________________

Dusty
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
B Franklin
Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
The Hidden Kingdom

(in reply to thompsonx)

Post #: 104

RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/31/2008 1:29:04 PM

GoddessDustyGold

Posts: 2822
Joined: 4/11/2004
From: Arizona
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

DustyGold, wrong, I never said I wanted "the govt" to actually run a national healthcare plan.
We need to create a whole different entity to do that.
"The govt" would collect the money to run it and turn it over to a trust or something like that.

Well, I'd have to give that one some thought. But I would still be wary of anything the government has it's hand in. And they would stil have their hand in!
What will be will be, and if universal health comes into being, then we must live with it. But I am still not sold on the idea.

_____________________________

Dusty
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
B Franklin
Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
The Hidden Kingdom

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 105

RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/31/2008 1:32:58 PM

glanstat

Posts: 76
Joined: 3/22/2006
Status: offline

Within the next five years 50% of the nation will be covered by a national health insurance plan anyway - they will be on medicare!!

(in reply to GoddessDustyGold)

Post #: 106

RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/31/2008 1:39:35 PM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

(but they all, secretly, want to be Americans. I know. Country radio told me so.)

'Sounds familiar.

Ask any man what nationality he would prefer to be, and ninety nine out of a hundred would tell you that they would prefer to be Englishmen.

Cecil Rhodes.

More to the point, what sort of centralised monstrosity could possibly cater for 300 million people? It's difficult enough for 60 million people.

Edited to add: the principle of affordale access to health care makes sense to me, i.e. it should be free to those in most need, rather than those who can afford it.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 1/31/2008 1:42:27 PM >

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)

Post #: 107

RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/31/2008 1:39:52 PM

SugarMyChurro

Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold
Someone gave the example of everyone having a Honda. Well, if I can afford a BMW, why should I have to pay more to get less? I know the other guy might only have a moped, but he does have something! I don't feel it is up to Me to upgrade his moped and take a downgrade for Myself.

Sheesh, more fear mongering.

The insurers are happy to take your money while they don't have to pay anything out, sure. The minute you become a risk and they can drop you, refuse treatment, etc. - they will! There is so much proof of the fact the covered people are dropped and refused treatment that I won't even bother to try to support it now and risk the war of evidence. I hope you know that much at least. But if not - catch a clue, seriously.

The whole point is that you are not covered the way you think you are. Someone will likely be injured or die because of your smugness and then all you will have to do is to argue over it in civil court. And good luck with that, because the insurers have some very decent legal counsel on their side.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold
...that putting the US Government in charge will make things all better.

That's because you think you are not in control of the government. I admit that things look bleak right now, but that's only because we as a people haven't told the government we have had enough of their bullshit. I would agree that most governments are corrupt to some level, but the governments in other countries know that the people are looking for actual value for the money - not like us in the U.S. where we just give it all away to bankers, corporations, and the military industrial complex.

"Here, take my money - I don't want anything in the way of goods or services in return. Let the infrastructure rot. Offshore my job. Reduce my rights and increase those of the faceless corporations. As long as we got booze, smoke, and TV in every household I am content to support the power pyramid as a peon to my financial overlords."

< Message edited by SugarMyChurro -- 1/31/2008 1:41:42 PM >

(in reply to GoddessDustyGold)

Post #: 108

RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/31/2008 1:45:37 PM

Stephann

Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: glanstat

Within the next five years 50% of the nation will be covered by a national health insurance plan anyway - they will be on medicare!!

Ironically, the politicians clamouring for Universal Health Care are just as responsible for the dismal failures we call Medicare and Medicaid. The governments inability to administer these programs efficiantly and fiscally responsible should be the most pointed piece of evidence that the government isn't capable of, and shouldn't be, shouldering the responsibility of providing health care.

The government's job should be very narrow in scope; protect the nation from threats external and internal, and ensure adequate laws to ensure people can pursue happiness in a manner that doesn't infringe on other people's happiness. This is why police and military forces should remain in the government's employ, and most everyone else earn their dollar on the market. It's the growth of medical insurance that has driven the cost of health care through the roof in the first place. It's always easier to spend someone elses money.

Stephan

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to glanstat)

Post #: 109

RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/31/2008 1:50:08 PM

EponasChylde

Posts: 65
Joined: 12/31/2007
Status: offline

quote:

So, please tell me how this is Capitalism working at its best? I certainly did not have a say when this neuro condition afflicted me, and I certainly have no control over the fact that neurologists cannot agree on the best method to bring it under control. So, because of factors beyond my control, I am forever determined to be "uninsurable." That's not Capitalism... that's borderline fascism.

Sucks to be you, is all I can say. It's hardly MY problem. I have insurance,and see no reason why my tax dollars should have to support other people's heath care.

quote:

if your speeding ticket means that industry loses fewer working days to illness a year, increases spending power among the working poor and ensures that no child dies of a preventable disease or a treatable injury then sure, pay the damn ticket

And why should I care about strange children or the working poor? That's what I want to know. Why should I care? It's no skin off my back.

quote:

Universal healthcare is not an attack on those who can afford healthcare already, it's an indirect benefit to them.

How in fuck does it benefit me? I'm going to go from having SPECTACULAR health care to having average health care. Sounds like suckage to me.

quote:

they are always looking for ways out of paying?

I've never had anything refused to me, including my purely elective tubal surgery.

quote:

And for those who say "your illness isnt my problem" and subscribe to a "the weak must perish" philosophy; you know, its great to have your health - will you feel the same when you become ill and in inconceivable pain? I fancy not - in fact I know not.

When I become sick, I'll have the awesome health care that I work my ass off for to take care me.

_____________________________

*aka geekygirl*

(in reply to Stephann)

Post #: 110

RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/31/2008 1:52:36 PM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

It's always easier to spend someone elses money.

Stephan

So it is.

There are plenty of men and women who denounce nationalist aggression. Some say it's necessary to spend tax-payers money on invasions and military adventures; others believe it is folly. Where did you stand on Iraq in 2002/03, Stephan?

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Stephann)

Post #: 111

RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/31/2008 2:10:48 PM

RealityLicks

Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline

Apart from a handful of check-ups, I can't remember the last time I saw a doctor. I've paid National Insurance since I was 16 - with a break until university was over. Never been ill, ceratinly never been hosptalised. I used to give blood for a while. Reading this thread, I'm starting to feel first of all quite lucky and secondly, sort of proud that the money that in another country I'd have spent on myself has instead been spent on those less able to enjoy what I do.

For all the peace of mind, the girlfriends who got "free" birth control, the fact that I was born safely and without drama - these are simply the stuff of everyday life here.

And for all you "small government, big defence"-types: your opposite numbers here would be up in arms if we were ever to withdraw the NHS. Even the most hardline, tax-cutting government ever to hit Westminster would need to prove it was "safe in their hands" or they'd be hitting the street very soon after.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 112

RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/31/2008 2:12:34 PM

Moloch

Posts: 1090
Joined: 6/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

You may claim you owe society nothing but you are using society and everyone in it simply living in it. The only way to honestly avoid have any mutual obligation is to remove yourself from society.

Im sorry are you familiar with a form called W-2?
That form says that I that the society is using me.
I work hard millions on welfare depend on me.

(in reply to thetammyjo)

Post #: 113

RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/31/2008 2:22:20 PM

RealityLicks

Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline

I'd also take issue with the assumption that the US has the best doctors in the world. I'm sure there are a number of specialists there who currently lead their peers but I'd tend to think the Netherlands, Germany, France and the UK could say the same in Europe. Before Christmas, I met some American medical students training at UCL, a large teaching hospital near my gaff. We've moved on a little since Sweeney Todd.

(in reply to Moloch)

Post #: 114

RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/31/2008 2:33:16 PM

defiantbadgirl

Posts: 2988
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: EponasChylde

When I become sick, I'll have the awesome health care that I work my ass off for to take care me.

It doesn't matter if you "work your ass off." If you ever need any expensive treatment, the insurance company will either find a way to get out of paying or if they do pay, you will be dropped after and considered uninsurable by other health insurance companies. You so need to watch Sicko. The documentary focuses on what happens to Americans who DO HAVE health insurance. You think those people didn't work their asses off? The insurance company doesn't care about you, they only care about making a profit. Wake up!

_____________________________

Only in the United States is the health of the people secondary to making money. If this is what "capitalism" is about, I'll take socialism any day of the week.

Collared by MartinSpankalot May 13 2008

(in reply to EponasChylde)

Post #: 115

RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/31/2008 3:19:44 PM

SugarMyChurro

Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline

EponasChylde:

I speak about this issue as someone that has rarely needed a doctor for any reason. So unlike you, I am actually speaking of free service for all for a service I rarely utilize. I got shots when I was a kid. I once had a wart removed from my hand. I have had chlamydia twice. And since then I have had semi-regular checkups for blood pressure and such. I tend to be extremely healthy and rarely get sick. Soon I shall have to start getting occasional colonoscopies, but I am not in a risk group.

Funny thing...I rarely call the police and then only to resolve someone else's problem, I have never called the fire department or paramedics or 911 for anything. I don't have kids and yet I think it's a good thing that other people's children get a free education (and although I am unsatisfied with the quality of that education, that's another thread). I like having the postal service and libraries dotting the landscape. I like the roads and community maintained utility services.

Welcome to civilization.

Standing on the shoulders of giants is precisely what allows someone like you the opportunity to spout the nonsense you keep typing into this thread.

(in reply to defiantbadgirl)

Post #: 116

RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/31/2008 4:27:52 PM

Stephann

Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

It's always easier to spend someone elses money.

Stephan

So it is.

There are plenty of men and women who denounce nationalist aggression. Some say it's necessary to spend tax-payers money on invasions and military adventures; others believe it is folly. Where did you stand on Iraq in 2002/03, Stephan?

Honestly, I didn't think much of Iraq one way or the other at the time. I thought it was foolish that we left Saddam in power on the heels of the first gulf war. What angers me, isn't the willingness of a country to go to war; it's the lack of willingness to plan and accept worse case scenarios, on the heels of a war. I think in 02, the assumption was that when we rolled into Baghdad we'd be met with the same wave of gratitude that we saw (in part and in parts) when we first invaded. By this point, those who'd had the guts to rebel during the first Gulf war had learned that the US was no more a friend than Saddam was. The naive belief that removing Saddam would somehow result in a 'free' Iraq was either poorly conceived by an idiot, or pure genius on the part of those who stood to profit most (defense contractors, industrial contractors, etc.)

In short, it isn't about what I thought should or shouldn't have happened in 02; it's about what didn't happen, in 91.

Regards,

Stephan

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 117

RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/31/2008 4:31:27 PM

luckydog1

Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline

Carlie310, No need to apologize, I get kind of turned on getting called dad anyway <grin>, little girl. Feel free to play with Thompson as long as you like. I was just pointing out that you already made your point, irrefutably. Yet T will argue till you give up out of boredom, and has no qualms with switching terms and making stuff up, thats how he rolls.

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)

Post #: 118

RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/31/2008 4:35:27 PM

EponasChylde

Posts: 65
Joined: 12/31/2007
Status: offline

quote:

It doesn't matter if you "work your ass off." If you ever need any expensive treatment, the insurance company will either find a way to get out of paying or if they do pay, you will be dropped after and considered uninsurable by other health insurance companies. You so need to watch Sicko. The documentary focuses on what happens to Americans who DO HAVE health insurance. You think those people didn't work their asses off? The insurance company doesn't care about you, they only care about making a profit. Wake up!

That's bullshit. I've known a great number of coworkers who have experienced many health problems (many of them are older individuals.) The insurance paid with no complaints and didn't drop anyone. They actually, by our contract, aren't allowed to drop us. But then I work for the government, so our contracts are probably different.

_____________________________

*aka geekygirl*

(in reply to luckydog1)

Post #: 119

RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/31/2008 4:36:03 PM

Stephann

Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline

Folks, the crux is obviously unrelated to actual health care. It's about outrageously expensive health care, and who should pay for it.

Naturally, people who can't afford a heart transplant would want/expect 'someone' to pay for it. Those who never need an expensive procedure would prefer not to pay for it.

For those who demand universal health care: how much time or money have you donated in the past five years to existing free (or low cost) clinics? Programs? I believe that if you're not willing to make that contribution to already existing institutions, the demand that I should be spending my tax dollars for even more of them, against my will, is hollow. For the record, and this is a little off topic, I feel the same way about funding the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. The issue was never put before us as a vote, and I certainly didn't support Bush in 04.

Stephan

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)

Post #: 120

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