RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care

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sappatoti -> RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (1/31/2008 4:49:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EponasChylde ...didn't drop anyone. They actually, by our contract, aren't allowed to drop us. But then I work for the government, so our contracts are probably different. Pray, then, you never leave the government's employ, for it IS vastly different in the private sector. By the way, I'm not sure which government you work for, but I would assume that the taxpayers of that government would think twice about having a servant that didn't think anything of anyone's needs other than their own; that whole "of the people, by the people, FOR the people" thing you know. ;-)

SugarMyChurro -> RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (1/31/2008 4:50:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Stephann Folks, the crux is obviously unrelated to actual health care. It's about outrageously expensive health care, and who should pay for it. Great try at moving the target. Healthcare is itself affordable. What we can no longer afford is the middleman called the insurance industry. I can see that we might need some management of the system, but not to the tune of the billions that the insurers, HMOs and CEOs are pulling down today. Let's be clear about where the money is going now, and why there's no point to any of it.

NorthernGent -> RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (1/31/2008 4:56:19 PM)
Fair enough, Stephan, but I'm curious as to whether you were/are prepared to use other peoples' tax funds to fund a war on the back of your opinions, or anything else for that matter (it would help understand whether you're good for your word with regard to your "it's always easier to spend other people's money" comment).

EponasChylde -> RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (1/31/2008 5:55:37 PM)
quote: By the way, I'm not sure which government you work for, but I would assume that the taxpayers of that government would think twice about having a servant that didn't think anything of anyone's needs other than their own; that whole "of the people, by the people, FOR the people" thing you know. ;-) Because of course all the tens of thousands of people employed by the government are there because they are caring, loving, people. Of course. It couldn't possibly be that they want high job security, guaranteed raises, excellent insurance, good pay and a superior retirement program. Just not possible! I'm the only evil one working for them. Please don't kid yourself. Many people who work for the governement do it for selfish reasons. I love my job, but I don't do it because I give a crap about the public. I do it because it's an awesome job that pays well. The governement employees thousands of people who may technically be considered civil servants...while in fact, they are actually secretaries, typists, analysts, computer geeks, etc. ALL kinds of people work for the government and not all of them have a job that has ANYTHING whatsoever to do with public service.

thompsonx -> RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (1/31/2008 6:04:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold Actually Thompson, that is not correct. When they are working those last 2 years of med school on their rotations, they are still med students. Some of it is classroom and some on site. They continue to pay tuition, and the rotations at the hospiotals, etc. are free labor as well as a learning and constant review period. It is not until they get their M.D. (after 4 years) that they have to match for an internship position. They must do a one year internship in order to be able to actually hang out a shingle. (That would be a GP or FP going into private practive or joining another private practice group. No specialty involved.) They are paid, albeit not too well. After that, any specialties they are looking for, in which they must be board certified is additional time (3 to 8 years) when they are not on their own, still under constant review as they are honing their skills in the specialty they choose. They are paid, but they are on salaries, and those salaries are not fat. If they do not do their one year internship, they cannot legally practice medicine, despite the degree from medical school. Dusty: You say that interns and residents don't make much money. How much does an intern make? How much does a resident make? thompson

Stephann -> RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (1/31/2008 6:05:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro Great try at moving the target. Healthcare is itself affordable. What we can no longer afford is the middleman called the insurance industry. I can see that we might need some management of the system, but not to the tune of the billions that the insurers, HMOs and CEOs are pulling down today. Let's be clear about where the money is going now, and why there's no point to any of it. Oh, there's no question that the middlemen are eating a substantial portion of the pie. This is one of the strongest reasons not to implement a universal health care system; because the HMO middle men will become government employees, with even less of a need for fiscal responsibility. I think there's many different aspects broken with the health care system. Huge settlements with drug manufacturers on the occasional 1% of a population who have a fatal reaction or allergy to a drug gets passed on to the consumers. Doctors aren't expected to be market competitive, because they are now collectively represented by the HMOs. In no way am I suggesting that the current model is responsible or sane; I'm saying that it requires a fundamental change in the regulation of that model; that is the government's job. I feel badly for every person who has a dying child because they can't afford procedures that cost more than they earn in 20 years. I agree, it's not fair. Yet, I think there are lots of things in things in this world that aren't fair either, and would be a lot less expensive to fix. Two hundred thousand dollars to save on person's life could also pay the college tuition of twenty other people, or significantly fund a program in the inner city to improve the quality of life for 200 children. Hence my original point: until we are prepared to fix a financial cap on the value of a human life, our health care system will never be able to effectively serve all of it's constituents. This doesn't mean one life is more valuable than another; it means that so long as there is an actual dollar price to be paid for health care, the capacity to prioritize where those dollars is necessary. Currently, it is a profit driven model that serves the middle men best. The government has the responsibility to force a promoted quality of health model, including discounts and rewards for people who actively strive for better fitness (reducing the overall expense of health care in large groups.) If there is no profit to be had in the industry, it won't be in any companies interest to work in it. I certainly wouldn't work full time as a claims adjuster if it doesn't pay any better than flipping burgers. I already made my suggestions, earlier, about what I believe should be free, and what shouldn't. Basic health care doesn't mean million dollar transplants. It means free vaccines, exercise classes, nutritional assistance, checkups, etc. Obviously, this leaves a market for insurance beyond what all people should mandatorily have. NG: I agree that the government exists to serve the common good of the people. I also believe that people will naturally, in a group, work towards their own common good through their own efforts at improving their individual lives. National defense falls under one of those (few) responsibilities a government must embrace. I don't agree that we should have invaded Iraq in 02, nor should we have done so in 91. If Kuwait didn't have any oil under their ground, it's unlikely there would have been more than a shrug of the shoulders in the West. The cold war gave the US a sense of self-importance that borders on meglomania: frankly, I don't want to be paying for our bloated military to play super-cop on a global scale. I believe I'm in the minority though; this is why Bush was re-elected, and why McCain has a very strong chance at becoming president. I mentioned that it's easier to spend other people's money; in the health care context, it means that it's easier to say "someone should pay for that child's $1,000 a month medication" than it is to say "I should pay for that child's medication." Those who ultimately decide to enact a national health plan in this country won't be the same people who pay for it; they'll benefit politically, without actually having to dole out the cash.

Hippiekinkster -> RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (1/31/2008 7:46:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moloch quote: ORIGINAL: thetammyjo You may claim you owe society nothing but you are using society and everyone in it simply living in it. The only way to honestly avoid have any mutual obligation is to remove yourself from society. Im sorry are you familiar with a form called W-2? That form says that I that the society is using me. I work hard millions on welfare depend on me. No, not really. I haven't seen one of those since the early 90s. I get 1099s. I paid zero income tax 2002-2005. I paid cap gains tax in 2006 because I sold some profitable real estate; I saw this "sub-prime" problem coming. I'll pay zero for 2007 and very likely 2008. I get waaaay more back, in the way of services, than I put in. It's extremely likely that you are getting more back than you put in. That being the case, you should remove yourself from society (as someone has suggested) so that you don't burden others. "...millions on welfare depend on me." Yep, all the stockholders of ADM, Exxon, Cargill, IBP, WalMart (I have a link to a good documentary about Wally World's business practices), Pfizer, Boeing, HALLIBURTON, Parker Drilling, Weyerhauser, Tyson, to name but a few. http://www.progress.org/banneker/cw.html http://www.corporations.org/welfare/ There are likely a few here who haven't figured out how to click links yet. They'll never learn some truths that contradict what the talking points memos tell them to think. Such as: "The $150 billion for corporate subsidies and tax benefits eclipses the annual budget deficit of $130 billion. It's more than the $145 billion paid out annually for the core programs of the social welfare state: Aid to Families with Dependent Children (AFDC), student aid, housing, food and nutrition, and all direct public assistance (excluding Social Security and medical care)." (from the second link.)

carlie310 -> RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (1/31/2008 8:54:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold Actually Thompson, that is not correct. When they are working those last 2 years of med school on their rotations, they are still med students. Some of it is classroom and some on site. They continue to pay tuition, and the rotations at the hospiotals, etc. are free labor as well as a learning and constant review period. It is not until they get their M.D. (after 4 years) that they have to match for an internship position. They must do a one year internship in order to be able to actually hang out a shingle. (That would be a GP or FP going into private practive or joining another private practice group. No specialty involved.) They are paid, albeit not too well. After that, any specialties they are looking for, in which they must be board certified is additional time (3 to 8 years) when they are not on their own, still under constant review as they are honing their skills in the specialty they choose. They are paid, but they are on salaries, and those salaries are not fat. If they do not do their one year internship, they cannot legally practice medicine, despite the degree from medical school. Dusty: You say that interns and residents don't make much money. How much does an intern make? How much does a resident make? thompson The 2007 Mean stipends in United States for a MD Resident (also called house-staff) from any specialty were as follows: 1st Year (PGY1 / Intern ): $44,000 2nd Year (PGY2): $46,000 3rd Year (PGY3): $48,000 4th Year (PGY4): $52,000/- 5th Year (PGY5): $54,000/- 6th Year (PGY6): $54,000/-Note: These are means based on a national survey by the AAMC - the actual figures can vary by $3,000 to $4000 on either side of the mean, an at times more. The article goes on to talk about the recent reforms in residency programs--like the 80-hour work week. Nothing like having the intern fall asleep on you while stitching you up. Let's do some math, shall we? 80 hour work week X 49 weeks per year (because a three week vacation helps make up for the lack of sleep, according to the same site) = 3920 hours per year. So someone can graduate from med school after 4 years (got that now?) and have the prospect of going to work for just over $11 an hour. They make less per hour than the person clicking the keys at the admission desk does. Now, after going through residency and maybe a fellowship or two, you can draw a nice salary. But wait! Remember those four years of medical school--and the four years of undergrad before that? Unless you were able to score some sweet scholarships, all that money needs to be paid back. Plus interest.

Moloch -> RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (1/31/2008 9:06:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster No, not really. I haven't seen one of those since the early 90s. I get 1099s. I paid zero income tax 2002-2005. I paid cap gains tax in 2006 because I sold some profitable real estate; I saw this "sub-prime" problem coming. I'll pay zero for 2007 and very likely 2008. I get waaaay more back, in the way of services, than I put in. It's extremely likely that you are getting more back than you put in. There are likely a few here who haven't figured out how to click links yet. They'll never learn some truths that contradict what the talking points memos tell them to think. Such as: Uhh no, I do pay taxes and when it comes time for filing for returns I still owe money, my accountant knows his trade so everything is filed right. Oh look a bunch of links on "corporate welfare" Heres a link for ya http://www.ncpa.org/pi/welfare/wel12b.html You want some StormFront links? They are about as logical and legetimate as the ones you provided.

GoddessDustyGold -> RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (1/31/2008 9:27:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold Actually Thompson, that is not correct. When they are working those last 2 years of med school on their rotations, they are still med students. Some of it is classroom and some on site. They continue to pay tuition, and the rotations at the hospiotals, etc. are free labor as well as a learning and constant review period. It is not until they get their M.D. (after 4 years) that they have to match for an internship position. They must do a one year internship in order to be able to actually hang out a shingle. (That would be a GP or FP going into private practive or joining another private practice group. No specialty involved.) They are paid, albeit not too well. After that, any specialties they are looking for, in which they must be board certified is additional time (3 to 8 years) when they are not on their own, still under constant review as they are honing their skills in the specialty they choose. They are paid, but they are on salaries, and those salaries are not fat. If they do not do their one year internship, they cannot legally practice medicine, despite the degree from medical school. Dusty: You say that interns and residents don't make much money. How much does an intern make? How much does a resident make? thompson Here ya go: quote: During residency, you are paid for your hard work. The average salary for a first year resident is in the range of $35,000 with increases each year of approximately $1,500. An intern is also known as a first year resident. After that they are R2, R3, etc. It doesn't seem like such a great salary to Me. And they work backbreaking hours also, sometimes 36 hour shifts. An approximate $1500 per year increase is not so hot either. That would be gross income, of course, subject to all the typical deductions. All the basic info regarding intern and resident responsibilities here.

Hippiekinkster -> RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (1/31/2008 9:38:52 PM)
ORIGINAL: Moloch quote: ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster No, not really. I haven't seen one of those since the early 90s. I get 1099s. I paid zero income tax 2002-2005. I paid cap gains tax in 2006 because I sold some profitable real estate; I saw this "sub-prime" problem coming. I'll pay zero for 2007 and very likely 2008. I get waaaay more back, in the way of services, than I put in. It's extremely likely that you are getting more back than you put in. There are likely a few here who haven't figured out how to click links yet. They'll never learn some truths that contradict what the talking points memos tell them to think. Such as: quote: Uhh no, I do pay taxes and when it comes time for filing for returns I still owe money, my accountant knows his trade so everything is filed right. Talk about completely missing the point. quote: Oh look a bunch of links on "corporate welfare" Heres a link for ya http://www.ncpa.org/pi/welfare/wel12b.html You want some StormFront links? They are about as logical and legetimate as the ones you provided. You're the one who brought up welfare. StormFront are on your side of the aisle, not mine. So I take it you resent having your tax dollars go to help single mothers, the elderly, the infirm, all those least able to fend for themselves, ja? You don't seem to have a problem giving your tax dollars to the rich for their welfare, though, huh? $150 Billion in corporate welfare. That's enough to pay for healthcare for half the country. I won't even bother with the fact that Single-payer/Universal would make US companies more competetive in the global economy. Be a task more suitable for Sisyphus.

thompsonx -> RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (2/1/2008 8:08:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: carlie310 The 2007 Mean stipends in United States for a MD Resident (also called house-staff) from any specialty were as follows: 1st Year (PGY1 / Intern ): $44,000 2nd Year (PGY2): $46,000 3rd Year (PGY3): $48,000 4th Year (PGY4): $52,000/- 5th Year (PGY5): $54,000/- 6th Year (PGY6): $54,000/- Note: These are means based on a national survey by the AAMC - the actual figures can vary by $3,000 to $4000 on either side of the mean, an at times more. The article goes on to talk about the recent reforms in residency programs--like the 80-hour work week. Nothing like having the intern fall asleep on you while stitching you up. Let's do some math, shall we? 80 hour work week X 49 weeks per year (because a three week vacation helps make up for the lack of sleep, according to the same site) = 3920 hours per year. So someone can graduate from med school after 4 years (got that now?) and have the prospect of going to work for just over $11 an hour. They make less per hour than the person clicking the keys at the admission desk does. Now, after going through residency and maybe a fellowship or two, you can draw a nice salary. But wait! Remember those four years of medical school--and the four years of undergrad before that? Unless you were able to score some sweet scholarships, all that money needs to be paid back. Plus interest. carlie: Are their any other benefits like subsidized meals, uniforms,lodging,matching 401k plans and so forth? thompson

SugarMyChurro -> RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (2/1/2008 3:27:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EponasChylde Please don't kid yourself. Many people who work for the governement do it for selfish reasons. I love my job, but I don't do it because I give a crap about the public. I do it because it's an awesome job that pays well. The governement employees thousands of people who may technically be considered civil servants...while in fact, they are actually secretaries, typists, analysts, computer geeks, etc. ALL kinds of people work for the government and not all of them have a job that has ANYTHING whatsoever to do with public service. Oh, the irony of it all...the smug attitude...the complete failure to understand one's career position or one's political place in the grand scheme of things...etc... [:D] This really isn't a personal attack. I just wonder if you realize how you come across. The idea that your very job depends upon taxpayer monies fails to persuade, huh? The very excellent benefits you apparently receive doesn't justify for you that we should all be receiving such excellent services universally? It's all just for you, eh? On the back of money from the rest of us? Big clue for you: you are a public servant. And politically speaking, we are coming for your job. You strike me as exactly the kind of smart-talking deadwood that we need to cut from government.

carlie310 -> RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (2/2/2008 12:21:15 AM)
thompson-- go do your own research.

thompsonx -> RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (2/2/2008 4:02:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: carlie310 thompson-- go do your own research. carlie: Trust me I have but you seem reticent to accept my findings so I thought it best for you to look and see your self. Interns and residents get their malpractice insurance paid,they get medical and dental insurance cheap or free,many receive free or subsidized housing,free or subsidized meals,uniforms,matching 401K programs. Some like the U.S.Navy program while paying less guarantee a 40 hour week. Some have special car purchase programs and low interest loans. Some pay for your exam fees. The government (read taxpayers) subsidize doctors from kindergarten through residency and into practice and that seems to be accepted as the way it should be but somehow for the taxpayer to subsidize the care that they provide is an anathema to many people. Why is it OK to subsidize medical education but not health care? thompson

subrob1967 -> RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (2/2/2008 5:15:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Gwynvyd I think insurance companies should be held to better standards, and should cover every thing that is actualy medicaly nessasary. If a Dr. Signs off on it... by gods they should cover it. I pay about $750 on my side of things for insurance for my family ( plus taxes on that insurance.. don't get me started again) Mind you We have damn good insurance. When I was out of work for a couple of months and had to wait for this to kick in.. I was at my wits end.. and could not afford my scripts, or my sons. I have no idea how people get along with out insurance. As with everything with our govt and doing anything for the peoples greater good.. we have to do it in baby steps. I think Regulating the bloody hell out of insurance companies. making them treat people.. and Making them lower insurance payments would be a great start. Also funding vouchers for those who can not pay so much ( I will take one thanks!) and covering any child under 18 who's parents simply can not afford it. I agree with allowing a child to stay on the parents insurance until 25, or out of school. Simply making it accessable to everyone would be nice.. We won't be able to pass it through as universal free health care.. thats simply too radical. But I think it might have a chance if some reforms and discounts were in place. As much as I hate Don't ask don't tell.. it was a hell of a lot better then being court martialed and numerous other lovely things on site, or simply being disallowed to join up and serve. Mind you it is still a witch hunt... but it has come a long way. baby steps Gwyn You people have to remember 1) Insurance companies are there to make money...period. 2) You get what you pay for, because all insurance is, is a transfer of risk. You're paying XYZ Insurance to gamble on whether you will stay healthy, or not. All group plans (employer assisted health insurance) judge groups by the "law of large numbers", which means they're not looking at clients on a case by case basis... You are a statistic, just like you are to the government. 3) The higher premium, or deductible you're willing to pay, or the more risk you're willing to retain, the cheaper the cost of the insurance. 4) YOU determine what your insurance covers, not the insurance company... If you're unhappy about whats covered & not covered under your group health plan, simply cancel it and buy individual health insurance. But be prepared to pay for it. Your company determined the amount of coverage they were willing to pay for, and the benefits you receive, not the insurance company. 5) If you want cheaper insurance, simply lead a healthy, relatively risk free lifestyle. Don't smoke, drink, or become overweight. Exercise, give up the whips, chains and paddles. Find a safe job, like an accountant. Stop riding motorcycles, skateboarding, skydiving, or scuba diving. In other words STOP TAKING RISKS Bottom line, the insurance companies are here to make money, the government is NOT here to keep you healthy, and one more thing... Do you really want the group who is running the current "war on terrer" deciding whats best for you? I sure as hell don't.

NorthernGent -> RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (2/2/2008 5:16:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Stephann National defense falls under one of those (few) responsibilities a government must embrace. I mentioned that it's easier to spend other people's money; in the health care context, it means that it's easier to say "someone should pay for that child's $1,000 a month medication" than it is to say "I should pay for that child's medication." I fully understand your point of view, Stephan, and it's a reasonable stance to take; but there is an alternative argument. Some people simply do not believe in nationalist ideals, nor do they believe the nation is under threat; it follows, thus, I don't want to see my money fund nuclear weapons or other forms of defence programmes: I don't perceive a threat from a foreign nation. Yet, I can see the reality of poor health on a daily basis, and this isn't going to be resolved by the market. I would prefer my tax to be directed towards improving the reality of sub-standard health in some sections of society, as opposed to being banked by the Treasury to ward off some perceived threat of foreign aggression. It has been a long time since a bomb hit me in the face. Let's have it right here. Neither of us is denouncing "spending other people's money"; we're both saying we're prepared to spend other people's tax money, even though they may not agree with us. The differences being that you deem defence to be a priority, whereas I deem health to be more important. In terms of your last paragraph, everyone benefits from improved standards of health - the individual because it will improve their chances of consistent employment, and wider society because consistent employment for the individual means stability and opportunity for that individual. Ultimately, this will garner a contribution towards economic growth and a reduced chance of the individual resorting to crime. There are cultural differences, of course; the English are simultaneously rediscovering the past that was buried when 'Britain' was created, and inventing a new future. The future will be less concerned with nation states and focused more on cities and regions. I envisage a time in the not too distant future where 'defending the nation' is no longer the jurisdiction of government.

subrob1967 -> RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (2/2/2008 6:07:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl It doesn't matter if you "work your ass off." If you ever need any expensive treatment, the insurance company will either find a way to get out of paying or if they do pay, you will be dropped after and considered uninsurable by other health insurance companies. You so need to watch Sicko. The documentary focuses on what happens to Americans who DO HAVE health insurance. You think those people didn't work their asses off? The insurance company doesn't care about you, they only care about making a profit. Wake up! Bullshit... If you are covered under a group, the insurance company CAN'T drop you, and unless your policy states that a particular elective surgery is not covered, they will cover it. By elective I mean cosmetic. If you are HIV positive, or have AIDS, the insurance company will pay it's FULL share of the costs. If you buy life insurance, and decide two years later to put a bullet in your brain, the life insurance company will pay FULL death benefits... It's the law! An insurace policy is a legal contract, and bound by law to perform the duties stated in the contract. If you believe everything Moore tells you, you may as well just go bury your head in the sand.

defiantbadgirl -> RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (2/2/2008 6:47:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subrob1967 YOU determine what your insurance covers, not the insurance company... If you're unhappy about whats covered & not covered under your group health plan, simply cancel it and buy individual health insurance. But be prepared to pay for it. Your company determined the amount of coverage they were willing to pay for, and the benefits you receive, not the insurance company. You determine what your health insurance covers, not the insurance company? Surely you're not suggesting people who develop chronic or serious health problems (cancer, etc) and pay high premiums choose for the insurance company to deny life saving treatments they need calling them "experimental."

defiantbadgirl -> RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (2/2/2008 6:54:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subrob1967 quote: ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl It doesn't matter if you "work your ass off." If you ever need any expensive treatment, the insurance company will either find a way to get out of paying or if they do pay, you will be dropped after and considered uninsurable by other health insurance companies. You so need to watch Sicko. The documentary focuses on what happens to Americans who DO HAVE health insurance. You think those people didn't work their asses off? The insurance company doesn't care about you, they only care about making a profit. Wake up! Bullshit... If you are covered under a group, the insurance company CAN'T drop you, and unless your policy states that a particular elective surgery is not covered, they will cover it. By elective I mean cosmetic. If you are HIV positive, or have AIDS, the insurance company will pay it's FULL share of the costs. If you buy life insurance, and decide two years later to put a bullet in your brain, the life insurance company will pay FULL death benefits... It's the law! An insurace policy is a legal contract, and bound by law to perform the duties stated in the contract. If you believe everything Moore tells you, you may as well just go bury your head in the sand. If they can't drop you, they will find a way out of paying. Haven't you ever heard insurance companies use the word "experimental?" That's how they get out of paying when they can't drop the person.

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