RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (Full Version)

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subrob1967 -> RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (2/2/2008 7:30:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl
If they can't drop you, they will find a way out of paying. Haven't you ever heard insurance companies use the word "experimental?" That's how they get out of paying when they can't drop the person.


If the treatment is FDA approved, and reviewed by the CDC it can't, by law, be called experimental... But it does have to be a proven method of treatment.

If Joe, the Witchdoctor wants to slaughter a chicken, drip blood on the wound, and roll the bones, all for the low low price of $2,500, then yes, the insurance company will refuse to pay.

If you want to go holistic, and try to use herbs to fix your ailment, no they wont buy the herbs for you... It's common sense.

Would you take a chance on paying for a treatment that has a 20% chance of doing good, and an 80% chance of costing you more money, by harming you further?

You might be willing to take that risk, but to an insurance company, the odds aren't there... It's bad business.




subrob1967 -> RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (2/2/2008 7:54:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sappatoti
I did have an excellent job. Good pay and health insurance costs shared by the employer and employees. It cost about $200/month. The company received a notice from it's insurer that it was no longer covering smaller businesses with fewer than 50 people, and they would have to find another carrier. My employer searched and found out that just about all of the major carriers suddenly had a similar policy, so the search went to smaller insurers who did not have the clout to make the same deals with medical practitioners as did the big carriers. My employer had no choice and signed up; result was my cost of health insurance went from $200/month to $350/month, and so did my employer's contribution go up.

I had a relapse of my continuing medical problems, and when the bills hit the insurer, they cancelled my employer's policy. The reason was that had the insurer known that I was "one of those" with chronic neurological problems, they would have not insured me. So, my employer's hunt for another carrier went on. They finally found one who would insure the company, but only if I, personally, would agree to waivers that I would not submit any medical claims having anything to do with my neurological condition to them. I did so knowing that at least the rest of the company would have insurance.

I moved on to another job in another city. When it came time for me to sign up for insurance after the probationary period, I was informed that their health insurance carrier, a large company, had reviewed my records and considered me "uninsurable." That company was bought out by another and I was one of the first to be downsized.

Since then, on every job interview I have been on, my credentials look good right up to the point where they run a background check on my medical past. It's a terrible thing to be turned down for a job because the employer is being told by their insurance company that I am "uninsurable," despite my willingness to sign waivers.

So, please tell me how this is Capitalism working at its best? I certainly did not have a say when this neuro condition afflicted me, and I certainly have no control over the fact that neurologists cannot agree on the best method to bring it under control. So, because of factors beyond my control, I am forever determined to be "uninsurable." That's not Capitalism... that's borderline fascism.


I find your story very hard to believe for 2 reasons

1) The insurance company CANNOT cancel ANY policy for ANY reason except NON payment of premiums, so if your group policy was cancelled, it means whomever was in charge of paying the premium, must not have paid the premium.

2) Group Medical policies CANNOT, BY LAW, pick and choose who is covered, and who isn't. It's an all or none proposition. They either cover EVERY employee who enrolls, or they're not allowed to do business...Period.

They can, however choose to not cover an ailment for up to 1 year under the preexisting clause. Preexisitng only comes into play if you've seen a Doctor for a specific thing, within a certain time frame of the policy's effective date. But the law states that if you don't see a Dr for 180 straight days, the condition is no longer preexisting, and no longer exempt from coverage.

So it's 180 consecutive days, or 1 year, whichever comes first.




SugarMyChurro -> RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (2/2/2008 1:07:46 PM)

subrob:

You are under the wrong impression that being right has anything to do with winning a case in court. Because that's what everything you are saying comes down to. Someone dies or is injured by the insurance company's refusal to pay out on some procedure and then you end up in court. And they have lawyers, man. Boy, do they have lawyers! This is supposed to be a country of rights and laws, at least theoretically I agree - but it has become a corporatist state because of people like you.

This isn't a nation of laws any longer (if it ever was), it's a nation of dollars. Do you realize that judges have conflicts of interest and can be bribed in about a million ways? But it's also hard to get rid of many judges even if they are corrupt. Generally speaking, you don't have much of a chance because some weasel words in the insurer's contract with you lets them get away literally with murder by negligence.

So when I see you talk about contracts, and laws, and how the corporation is just there to make profit and the government isn't there to help you maintain your life, liberty, and property...well, I just laugh. That's just the usual right-wing talking points. All the feel good "we're number #1" rah-rah crap extolled by the likes of Limbaugh and O'Reilly in support of the almighty dollar and corporate greed. I mean, the U.S. Constitution is a contract among ourselves, the natural citizens, intended to promote the general welfare of OURSELVES. That's the very reason any society is formed: for the general welfare - as in we natural-born individuals all think we get something out of it. Corporations aren't part of that contract and you may have a fundamental misunderstanding of the purposes of government if you think corporate profits has anything to do with those purposes.

The problem is the breakdown of the system. It doesn't help the individual and instead it promotes to an excessive degree the agendas of various corporations as we rush toward a fascist state.




defiantbadgirl -> RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (2/2/2008 1:37:03 PM)

Health insurance companies are crooked and they look for any reason they can to deny coverage. Their denials drive up the cost of health care. I don't see any reason for their existance. I know the government isn't perfect, but I'd rather have the government  in charge of health care than businesses focused on making the largest profit possible.




subrob1967 -> RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (2/2/2008 2:31:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

subrob:

You are under the wrong impression that being right has anything to do with winning a case in court. Because that's what everything you are saying comes down to. Someone dies or is injured by the insurance company's refusal to pay out on some procedure and then you end up in court. And they have lawyers, man. Boy, do they have lawyers! This is supposed to be a country of rights and laws, at least theoretically I agree - but it has become a corporatist state because of people like you.


People like me? What exactly does that mean? You don't know me, you see the words I type on a kink website, and thats it.

quote:


This isn't a nation of laws any longer (if it ever was), it's a nation of dollars. Do you realize that judges have conflicts of interest and can be bribed in about a million ways? But it's also hard to get rid of many judges even if they are corrupt. Generally speaking, you don't have much of a chance because some weasel words in the insurer's contract with you lets them get away literally with murder by negligence.


We are still a nation of laws, and if you don't like the laws on the books, vote for people who agree with your idea of what the law should be, and change them. And nobody dies because an insurance company refuses to cover a procedure. The hospital, or the state will foot the bill if you can't afford it, and it's life threatening... Look up Indiana's HCI program, every state has the equivilent.

quote:


So when I see you talk about contracts, and laws, and how the corporation is just there to make profit and the government isn't there to help you maintain your life, liberty, and property...well, I just laugh. That's just the usual right-wing talking points. All the feel good "we're number #1" rah-rah crap extolled by the likes of Limbaugh and O'Reilly in support of the almighty dollar and corporate greed. I mean, the U.S. Constitution is a contract among ourselves, the natural citizens, intended to promote the general welfare of OURSELVES. That's the very reason any society is formed: for the general welfare - as in we natural-born individuals all think we get something out of it. Corporations aren't part of that contract and you may have a fundamental misunderstanding of the purposes of government if you think corporate profits has anything to do with those purposes.


I stated a fact, insurance companies are out to make money, just like any other "for profit" business.

General welfare does not mean the government should take care of every issue you might face in your life. Thats the difference between us, I don't rely on the government to sew up my finger when I cut it. I believe in personal responsibility. 

I don't listen to Limbaugh, or O'Reilly, and the insurance company I sell for is a UNION company, selling policies to UNION members. I happen to be a union member, &  I'd say I was the exact opposite of what you think.

quote:


The problem is the breakdown of the system. It doesn't help the individual and instead it promotes to an excessive degree the agendas of various corporations as we rush toward a fascist state.


The problem isn't just the breakdown of the system, thats a part of it, it's also the desire of people like you, who want the U.S. to become something it's not, a socialist state.




subrob1967 -> RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (2/2/2008 2:40:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

Health insurance companies are crooked and they look for any reason they can to deny coverage. Their denials drive up the cost of health care. I don't see any reason for their existance. I know the government isn't perfect, but I'd rather have the government  in charge of health care than businesses focused on making the largest profit possible.


And thats the fundamental difference between us, you are a socialist, and I'm not. I don't believe the government has the ability to run anything efficiently, and is one big bloated bureaucracy.

Nothing is free, even health care, & I'd rather pay the company thats driving up costs, than the governemnt who sells out to the lowest bidder. At least with private insurance, I have a choice of whether or not to buy coverage, and what coverage I want.




SugarMyChurro -> RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (2/2/2008 3:07:32 PM)

You better look around, the U.S. has been heavily socialistic for over 70 years. We're just doing it badly because our politicians are bought and paid for in a broken system that requires that they be bought and paid for in order for them to win their offices.

Some of you need to update your reality files. The U.S. is a socialist state already - just a bad one where we don't get value for the money we pay in taxes.




GoddessDustyGold -> RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (2/2/2008 4:36:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

You better look around, the U.S. has been heavily socialistic for over 70 years. We're just doing it badly because our politicians are bought and paid for in a broken system that requires that they be bought and paid for in order for them to win their offices.

Some of you need to update your reality files. The U.S. is a socialist state already - just a bad one where we don't get value for the money we pay in taxes.



Could you give Me your definituion of a "socialist state"?  And 70 years?  I would put it more to 45 - 50 years, Myself.  I have a tendency to see the "War on Poverty" as being the first big one that got completely out of hand.
The amount of taxes levied in all areas is more than atrocious, I agree.  What is being done with those taxes and how the people agree to have the government set up as to the governement's legal responsibilities to individuals would determine whether or not we are a socialist state.
I think the difference between you and I , SMC, is that I have absolutely no confidence that if we give more in taxes, we will receive more in benefits.  I am not in favor of throwing bad money after bad.  We are already mis-spending billions and billions...what makes you think that giving the government more power over our lives (say, in the form of universal health care) would not cost us more and continue to give us less? 
Enquiring minds and all that... 




Real0ne -> RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (2/2/2008 8:01:02 PM)



Social insecurity was passed in the early 30's around 33 maybe?








Stephann -> RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (2/2/2008 10:03:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

You better look around, the U.S. has been heavily socialistic for over 70 years. We're just doing it badly because our politicians are bought and paid for in a broken system that requires that they be bought and paid for in order for them to win their offices.

Some of you need to update your reality files. The U.S. is a socialist state already - just a bad one where we don't get value for the money we pay in taxes.



We don't often agree, but I'm right with you here.

I believe Socialism, in theory, is the best form of government in existence. I also believe that it's a form of government that requires a much greater degree in common goals (and inexpensive resources) to attain.  Until then, capitalism is the road that will eventually lead us to Socialism (and not likely in our century.)  Only when we realize that, as a group, we will either pull together to contend with our energy, environmental, landfill, and freedom of expression issues (not just along state boundaries) and ensure that everyone can have anything they want, for next to no effort, will we have a shot at functioning socialism.

Having said that, when things can be created virtually out of air a la Star Trek, there will still be people with greed, jealousy, and pride.  Until we can find a way to make selfless sharing profitable, we're stuck with capitalism (even if it's implemented with a 'communist' government like in the US today.)

Stephan

Stephan




SugarMyChurro -> RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (2/2/2008 10:38:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold
Could you give Me your definituion of a "socialist state"?


Just look up Social Democracy. Easy to do and reveals so much.

And anyway, the minute a government controls property and wealth the ways ours does you simply don't have anything like capitalism anymore.

That ship has sailed...

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold
I think the difference between you and I , SMC, is that I have absolutely no confidence that if we give more in taxes, we will receive more in benefits.


I don't intend for any of this to cost one dime more in taxes except possibly against the corporations. The reality is that we as a people already pay taxes that are high enough to cover these expenses if we were in a socialist democracy in Europe, so why pay more here?

Let me clarify two other things:

I don't believe corporations even have the right to exist at all. I think it's okay for them to exist if they serve a public good by creating jobs, providing goods and services needed by the community, etc. But for far too long we have allowed them to exist as if were the servant to corporate masters and not the other way around. Personally, I have had enough of that kind of brain-dead thinking. We have to take back the power that is ours to begin with. I don't personally care if corporations make any money or not, their profit motives cannot be our motive when it comes to creating or regulating corporations. Sometimes we might want a private utility company to serve a community need and sometimes it's just better to allow the community government to handle it instead. All I am saying is that there is nothing automatic about having to have something like private medical insurance companies if we simply decided we were going to take that over and handle it through the government instead. The fact that certain insurance companies would then go out of business is not the public's concern.

The other thing is that we are grossly allowing our tax monies to be squandered on shit like Iraq, Afghanistan, foreign aid, propping up coal, propping up oil, etc. It has to end. How much more money to do we have to throw at a bullshit war like Iraq? How much more money does the pentagon really need seeing as we can blow up the planet several times over? How much more to the military industrial complex? How much more to Koch Industries, ADM, and Halliburton? If you want to talk about throwing away good money after bad, these special interests is where to start making the savings - not on programs that would actually benefit the great many of us. You don't need to collect any more money in taxes than is done now, you just need to stop blowing it on dead and previously resolved issues like defense. Isn't mutually assured destruction more affordable than standing armies or wars abroad?....or....Got nukes? What else do you really need?

Finally, it has to be understood that our healthcare system "as is" is killing our competitiveness abroad. The most fiscally sensible thing we could do right now is start handling healthcare in the exact same way as every other country in the western world is already doing it. Our labor is not being made more affordable on the back of employers have to pay for medical insurance. If you want to ease the pain to the corporations in terms of the cost of new hires, this is where to start.






GoddessDustyGold -> RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (2/2/2008 10:55:23 PM)

Thank you.  I don't disagree with your basic assessment.  I appreciate your candidness.




thompsonx -> RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (2/3/2008 3:47:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl
If they can't drop you, they will find a way out of paying. Haven't you ever heard insurance companies use the word "experimental?" That's how they get out of paying when they can't drop the person.


If the treatment is FDA approved, and reviewed by the CDC it can't, by law, be called experimental... But it does have to be a proven method of treatment.

Has it ever happened that this process has failed?  That the "approved" modality turns out to be counterproductive or actually harmful.  Has it ever happened that the drug companies have bribed public officials to accept falsified data?


If Joe, the Witchdoctor wants to slaughter a chicken, drip blood on the wound, and roll the bones, all for the low low price of $2,500, then yes, the insurance company will refuse to pay.
Even if it works?

If you want to go holistic, and try to use herbs to fix your ailment, no they wont buy the herbs for you... It's common sense.

How common have you found "common sense" to be?


Would you take a chance on paying for a treatment that has a 20% chance of doing good, and an 80% chance of costing you more money, by harming you further?
What percentage of "chemo" patients die?


You might be willing to take that risk, but to an insurance company, the odds aren't there... It's bad business.

Why is it that you are in favor of "bean counters" making "business decisions" instead of doctors making medical decisions?





subrob1967 -> RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (2/3/2008 5:35:04 AM)

quote:

thompsonx
Has it ever happened that this process has failed?  That the "approved" modality turns out to be counterproductive or actually harmful.  Has it ever happened that the drug companies have bribed public officials to accept falsified data? 

Even if it works?

How common have you found "common sense" to be?

What percentage of "chemo" patients die?

Why is it that you are in favor of "bean counters" making "business decisions" instead of doctors making medical decisions?

 
1) Yes, nothing is perfect, thats why we pay big pharm to do all the testing it does, and pay so much for healthcare. Bet you didn't know that big pharm charges so much to cover advertising costs, and not R&D. Try watching daytime t.v., now count the drug commercials.

2) If it works, all the Witchdoctor has to do is apply for a patent, sell his concoction to big pharm & retire rich.

3) I honestly don't think liberals have any common sense, but thats just my opinion.

4) You tell me, you're Johnny on the spot when it comes to stats.

5) You're not paying bean counters to make medical decisions, you're paying them to take on risk. If you want your Dr. to make the medical decisions, pay CASH, and don't use health insurance.

Once again... You buy insurance to cover risk, period. You are asking XYZ to pay for your medical bills IF you get sick, and death benefits WHEN you die. The insurance company is betting that they will make more money off the premiums they collect, than they will pay out in benefits...Of course the deck is stacked in the company's favor.
 
 





subrob1967 -> RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (2/3/2008 5:37:41 AM)

Yeah, and you see where SS & Medicare are right now...They Don't Work!

Take government out of the social welfare business, they're too inept.




Real0ne -> RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (2/3/2008 7:28:04 AM)



Sure it would work if it were not abused, however the government cannot do anything without abusing it, so unfortunately like any other 3rd world country where gov theft is the norm I agree with you, get government out of all services for the people, but unfortunately we need some services so that puts us back to cleaning up the gov and I do not see that happening on any kind of a large enough scale to be useful.




SugarMyChurro -> RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (2/3/2008 7:33:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967
Yeah, and you see where SS & Medicare are right now...They Don't Work!


I believe the problems are overstated by those that would like to see more money go toward the military.

[8|]






thompsonx -> RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (2/3/2008 2:41:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

quote:

thompsonx
Has it ever happened that this process has failed?  That the "approved" modality turns out to be counterproductive or actually harmful.  Has it ever happened that the drug companies have bribed public officials to accept falsified data? 

Even if it works?

How common have you found "common sense" to be?

What percentage of "chemo" patients die?

Why is it that you are in favor of "bean counters" making "business decisions" instead of doctors making medical decisions?

 
1) Yes, nothing is perfect, thats why we pay big pharm to do all the testing it does, and pay so much for healthcare. Bet you didn't know that big pharm charges so much to cover advertising costs, and not R&D. Try watching daytime t.v., now count the drug commercials.
It is pretty well understood that the drug companies spend exponentially more on advertising than they do on R&D.

2) If it works, all the Witchdoctor has to do is apply for a patent, sell his concoction to big pharm & retire rich.

There is enough valid information to show that marijuana has a pharmacological advantage over what the drug companies produce but still it is an illegal and "experimental" modality...so much for your theory.
The reason it is still illegal is that the drug companies cannot patent it and make any money on it any more than they can patent a healthy life style.  They are in the business of selling drugs that they can make money on and not in the health care business.

3) I honestly don't think liberals have any common sense, but thats just my opinion.
Seems like an opinion with very little common sense involved in its derivation.

4) You tell me, you're Johnny on the spot when it comes to stats.
Since you work in the insurance industry and would necessarily be a few key strokes away from this knowledge I take this to mean that you don't know and don't care to know.  Now that is common sense.  By choosing not to know you can honestly look your potential clients in the eye and tell them, "I don't know".  Don't you find that to be more than a little disingenuous?

5) You're not paying bean counters to make medical decisions, you're paying them to take on risk. If you want your Dr. to make the medical decisions, pay CASH, and don't use health insurance.
If you pay your insurance premiums you are paying cash and the insurance company is not qualified to make medical decisions.  As you have previously mentioned you work for them so it would appear that you have a vested interest in toeing the "party line"


Once again... You buy insurance to cover risk, period. You are asking XYZ to pay for your medical bills IF you get sick, and death benefits WHEN you die. The insurance company is betting that they will make more money off the premiums they collect, than they will pay out in benefits...Of course the deck is stacked in the company's favor.
In poker "stacking the deck" is called cheating.  It would appear that you,by your own admission, are in favor of cheating the people you sell insurance to.  Is that ethical?  Is that legal?






subrob1967 -> RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (2/3/2008 5:25:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
It is pretty well understood that the drug companies spend exponentially more on advertising than they do on R&D.

There is enough valid information to show that marijuana has a pharmacological advantage over what the drug companies produce but still it is an illegal and "experimental" modality...so much for your theory.
The reason it is still illegal is that the drug companies cannot patent it and make any money on it any more than they can patent a healthy life style.  They are in the business of selling drugs that they can make money on and not in the health care business.

Seems like an opinion with very little common sense involved in its derivation.

Since you work in the insurance industry and would necessarily be a few key strokes away from this knowledge I take this to mean that you don't know and don't care to know.  Now that is common sense.  By choosing not to know you can honestly look your potential clients in the eye and tell them, "I don't know".  Don't you find that to be more than a little disingenuous?

If you pay your insurance premiums you are paying cash and the insurance company is not qualified to make medical decisions.  As you have previously mentioned you work for them so it would appear that you have a vested interest in toeing the "party line"
.
In poker "stacking the deck" is called cheating.  It would appear that you,by your own admission, are in favor of cheating the people you sell insurance to.  Is that ethical?  Is that legal?


1) So, complain to the pharm companies about the cost of medicine, Insurance companies, negotiate how much they're willing to pay, so it benefits YOU, the insured.

2) Again, vote to elect people who agree with your views, it's not my fault senators and congressmen sell out to big pharm

3) Says a liberal, which means nothing to me

4) You're right, I don't care how many people survive chemo therapy, it has no bearing on whats considered experimental, or the descussion here

5)Again, you are paying an insurance company to transfer RISK from yourself, to the company. Damn right they're going to lay down some ground rules. If you pay a doctor cash for treatment, there is no insurance company involved.

6)Yes it's ethical, and legal. Running a business to make a profit is cheating? Oh my Gawd, I guess every sucessful business, that makes a profit, is cheating...In your opinion.

7) You really need to learn how to trim quotes, you're wasting a lot of bandwith.




Feric -> RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care (2/3/2008 5:27:28 PM)

I've lived in countries which have Universal coverage, and while it's usually pretty good, it does require a large tax base to support it. Interestingly, it doesn't necessarily mean that people will be in good health. While in Asia, I noticed that many people had bad teeth, even though their dental coverage was automatically paid for. Also, when I had my own teeth fixed there, the work bothered me. When I returned to the 'States, my regular dentist took one look and started cursing. He anesthitized me and then proceeded to do an hour's worth of work. The reason? The dentist in Asia has put a crown in backwards, and used substandard dental cement! Perhaps personal avarice is needed to stimulate proper care?




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