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RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 5:45:30 PM   
kitttty


Posts: 494
Joined: 10/10/2007
Status: offline 		Likewise, I would not shirk the label 'radical feminist'.

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RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 5:47:40 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		Well that is an area of study (particularly in criminology), that has earned much of my attention, even though both terms are polarizing and often incorrectly perceived.

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RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 5:50:16 PM   
ShaktiSama


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama

I'm a whacky enough feminist that I don't think there should ever be another porno movie made without a real and sincere female orgasm in it. 


But would  you make that law, if you could?


Yes.  Yes I would.

And I would make you enforce it, with an iron fist. 

_____________________________

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea."
-- Robert A. Heinlein

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RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 5:55:01 PM   
kitttty


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quote:

Well that is an area of study (particularly in criminology), that has earned much of my attention, even though both terms are polarizing and often incorrectly perceived.


I'm not really sure if there is a correct variety of radical feminism. I would myself accept the label because it has been used to describe some feminists whose perspectives I admire.

I mean, I know that Hoff Sommers is definitely not radical feminism, but Dworkin could be, depending on the definition.

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RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 5:59:35 PM   
ShaktiSama


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kitttty

Likewise, I would not shirk the label 'radical feminist'.


No.  Nor should you.  The drive to splinter women and women's movements into smaller, more manageable and mutually hostile groups is a classic strategy.  It works well on any subaltern group that is fool enough to fall for it:  as soon as you have "good Jews" and "bad Jews" you are doomed.

As a woman I am very, very wary of having the terms of proper womanhood dictated to me by men.  This includes the terms of "correct feminism".  Having men or a male-dominated society tell you how to be a "good feminist" versus a "bad one" is foolish.  From what I've seen, even the scariest most "radical" feminists are only talking about the vicitmization of women in a male-dominated industry that produces porn, the abuse of female children and young women in adolescence, or the trafficking of female sexual slaves.  The myth of Female Supremacy is just that:  a myth.  It exists only as a fantasy created by and for submissive men for their sexual pleasure, and connects to no real political or social movement that I have yet discovered.  

_____________________________

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea."
-- Robert A. Heinlein

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RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 6:02:15 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
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Status: offline 		Realizing that there are different branches of feminism is not something men have come up with to weaken feminism, it's something feminists have realized and written about from the very start of feminism.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

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RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 6:02:31 PM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

The drive to splinter women and women's movements into smaller, more manageable and mutually hostile groups is a classic strategy.  It works well on any subaltern group that is fool enough to fall for it:  as soon as you have "good Jews" and "bad Jews" you are doomed.

As a woman I am very, very wary of having the terms of proper womanhood dictated to me by men.  This includes the terms of "correct feminism".  Having men or a male-dominated society tell you how to be a "good feminist" versus a "bad one" is foolish.  From what I've seen, even the scariest most "radical" feminists are only talking about the vicitmization of women in a male-dominated industry that produces porn, the abuse of female children and young women in adolescence, or the trafficking of female sexual slaves. 



Again, folks are confusing something from a pop magazine with academic disciplines, if they think Freda Adler and her successors were 'dictated to' and 'splintered' by forming radical, critical, or any other feminist theory.

Without them, the prevailing medical dogma would still be that women have no need to worry about heart disease, and that battered women's syndrome doesn't exist.

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 2/3/2008 6:04:33 PM >

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RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 6:03:23 PM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama

I'm a whacky enough feminist that I don't think there should ever be another porno movie made without a real and sincere female orgasm in it. 


But would  you make that law, if you could?


Yes.  Yes I would.

And I would make you enforce it, with an iron fist. 


If you're serious, then it's people like you that do as much damage to women as any misogynist.
 
If you're kidding, then "lol".

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 6:15:51 PM   
ShaktiSama


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

Realizing that there are different branches of feminism is not something men have come up with to weaken feminism, it's something feminists have realized and written about from the very start of feminism.


I'm not talking about the use of labels within the movement:  I'm talking about the use of labels outside the movement as control mechanisms for discouraging further participation in feminism. "Radical feminist" is a label which has been used as a pejorative, serves as a means of demonizing feminism, and is especially effective to discourage people from reading the source material.  After all, who wants to join the ranks of women who promote "misandry" and "female supremacy" and "radical" notions like that?

Most women freely admit that they love men, and would never want to hurt or disrespect them.  That's why hateful labels like "feminazi" are able to keep the young women mentioned in the OP's post from becoming feminists--and it is why these young women have dropped their responsibility to maintain the gains made by previous generations, and continue making improvements.

The false comfort being marketed to younger generations is that the world is "All Better Now" and women can stop fighting for equality.  Unfortunately, this premise is ridiculous: women are still massively underrepresented in politics and law, massively underrepresented in religion and positions of social power, and massively over-represented in performers of sexual labor, as well as among the victims of violence and poverty the world over.

Even just in the Western world, there are a lot of serious issues to be addressed.  Among these are placing women in positions of power where cultural production is concerned:  we need a lot more women directors of film in general, and a massive increase in female vocality in sexual expression. 



_____________________________

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea."
-- Robert A. Heinlein

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RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 6:16:15 PM   
slaveluci


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann
Could it be possible that there are idiot women who are just as interested in pushing down men, or idiot blacks who wish to push down whites, or idiot gays who want to push down straight people?

The desire to kick another group square in the crotch for whatever reason is hardly limited to straight, white men

Man, Stephan, did you say a mouthful there!  Bravo......luci

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RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 6:19:53 PM   
Owner59


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I see that the anti-feminist movement has cleverly twisted the meaning of feminism (equal rights, respect) so that it appears to be 'supremacy'. And you fell for it? I can't believe students and faculties are all that naive, when they work in the last bastions of knowledge and enlightenment in the world.


It's not just anti-feminists. I speak from personal experience that I have been yelled at by "feminists" for my life choices because they were "wrong". The feminist movement itself has some followers that give it a very bad name. I've seen women complain because a three pack of condoms costs less than a 12 pack of tampons and this is clearly male oppression.


I`m a feminist.

One doesn`t need to be female to be for respect,equal pay for equal work,the right to work and rise through the ranks for all women.

In business,it`s still an old boy`s club.In politics and in the military,women (and black people) have done better,but only because it`s mandated and demanded.

Business on the other hand lags way behind,probably b/c they aren`t bound by the same laws as the public sector.

There`s no excuse for paying a woman less than a man,everything being equal.

I've seen women complain because a three pack of condoms costs less than a 12 pack of tampons and this is clearly male oppression.
 
 That`s your complaint? So called feminists griping about tampon prices,seems low on the importance scale.
 
Condoms are for women also,btw.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 
 
Part of the problem is that anti-feminists(right-wingers) have as a strategy,tried to redefine feminism as something that it isn`t.
 
Rush Limbaugh and other right-wing spokes-people,regularly use the term "Feminazi" and other names that are just as disgusting.
 
There`s a lot of myths and distortions,regarding the feminist movement.Add to that people who actively work against equal rights for women and you get confussion and misunderstandings.
 
It`s the anti-feminists (right-wing assholes) who have made "feminist" and "feminism" dirty words,not feminists.
 
An irony of feminism,equal rights and freedom,is that people are also free to choose not to be free or equal.Another irony of equal rights and freedom for women ,is that some women will work with right wingers against women`s rights and equity.
 
That freedom though,AquaticSub,doesn`t mean you`re exempt from getting flack over your choices.
 
Freedom of choice doesn`t mean freedom from being flamed.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

General question (as I watch the SB,go Giants!).
 
If people hadn`t made a stink about men`s sports programs getting the lion`s share of resources at schools/colleges,would we be moving towards equity on those things?

That`s a typical feminist issue and one reason why they get
demonized.Feminists are the squeaky wheels so of course they get rapped on,marginalizes and made fun of.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 2/3/2008 6:26:39 PM >

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RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 6:20:14 PM   
gorgeous1


Posts: 367
Joined: 11/14/2007
Status: offline 		Just an observation:

I get more disdain from females rather than males about my choice to stay at home. Most of the females who make snide and cutting remarks are women in their 50's and 60's. I have more women who assume that my IQ has dropped a point each year I have spent changing diapers. Most of the men who ask me "what I do" compliment me for my choice to stay home. Maybe they're being sincere, or maybe they're just parroting what is politically correct- either way I don't care.

I have also had several women who work outside the home confess to me that they COULDN'T stay home- they'd go nuts.

I have had some women COMPLETELY BULLSHIT me and say, "Oh, you're sooooo lucky, I'd totally stay home but we can't afford it." They say this as they are standing next to their 2008 SUV, $300 jeans, botox, manicure, their kids are in Baby Gap...you know- the whole package. I feel like saying, "You mean, you're not willing to make material sacrifices to stay home."

I'm not judging those who feel they need these things to be happy- that's their choice, but don't confuse wants with needs. I don't have everything I want, but I get everything I need, and we have made tremendous sacrifices to live off of one income.

So...what do those of you who consider yourself a feminist REALLY think of my choice to stay home?

_____________________________

Wife/property of CapnSpankins...and loving every minute of it! Visit my juicy blog http://www.kinkycrafts.info/gorgeous-blog/gblog.php for updates on my slave training!

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RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 6:27:50 PM   
ShaktiSama


Posts: 1674
Joined: 8/13/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
If you're serious, then it's people like you that do as much damage to women as any misogynist.
 
If you're kidding, then "lol".


Oh, horseshit.  I'm sorry, but I am so tired of male rhetoric about how much "damage" liberated women do by pointing out male privilege that, seriously--I could hurl.

1.  Take as a given the following:  NO WOMAN, no matter how insane, does as much damage to women as male misogynists do. With the possible exception of Elizabeth Bathory.  And she was a very special girl.

2.  Take as given also:  the world would benefit greatly if the number of female orgasms depicted in pornorgraphy were massively increased.  The notion that female sexual desire and pleasure are inferior to and less important than male sexual desire and satisfaction, to the point that films depicting "normal" sex normally do not include them at all, is an incredibly poisonous and evil thing.

Period.

Lol if you like.  I was joking, but not kidding.  There is already plenty of sexual legislation and social tradition in place that privileges male sexuality and punishes female sexuality.  I get a little sick of it, quite frankly.  And this chest-beating "LOOK WHAT YOU MADE ME DO!" rhetoric coming from men to explain that any time we point out or question patriarchy we are inviting misogyny and retribution?  Gets a LITTLE freaking old.

You want to hate women, lash out at them or stand in the way of equal rights and equal representation--go nuts.  But stop blaming them for it.  That wife-beating mentality doesn't fly.

_____________________________

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea."
-- Robert A. Heinlein

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RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 6:27:57 PM   
AquaticSub


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Joined: 12/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

I've seen women complain because a three pack of condoms costs less than a 12 pack of tampons and this is clearly male oppression.
 
 That`s your complaint? So called feminists griping about tampon prices,seems low on the importance scale.
 
Condoms are for women also,btw.

That's my point! Women were complaining that 12 tampons cost more than 3 tampons and (pay attention) that means that men are oppressing women - completely ignoring that women need condoms too! Screw being happy that women can get condoms cheaply, or for free, and have sex without worrying about making babies - the fact that I have to pay for my tampons is clear male oppression!
quote:


That freedom though,AquaticSub,doesn`t mean you`re exempt from getting flack over your choices.
 
Freedom of choice doesn`t mean freedom from being flamed.


Well duh but this isn't about freedom of choice. It's about feminism and feminism is about being helping women make the choices that are right for them, not imposing new artificial roles on women. 

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 2/3/2008 6:29:18 PM >

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 6:28:15 PM   
kitttty


Posts: 494
Joined: 10/10/2007
Status: offline 		My observation is that there is far more venom spewed from stay at home moms towards working mothers than vice versa.

And I had every intention of being a SAHM for a while.

Betty Friedan and her era of feminists spoke against the expectations of housewives. Granted it was in the 1950s.

It was actually those who are generally called radical feminists that spoke up for the work traditionally done by women. They wanted domestic work to be respected and considered equal to what men contributed.

Many ignorant people now give credit to conservatives who spew family values crap for being the people to speak up for housewives, but they are not and have never been. It was the radical feminists.

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RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 6:29:36 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

But would  you make that law, if you could?


Yes.  Yes I would.


Outlawing gay porn hardly seems like a step in the right direction.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 6:30:55 PM   
AquaticSub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kitttty

My observation is that there is far more venom spewed from stay at home moms towards working mothers than vice versa.



And my experience is the reverse. I can not even begin to tell how much shit I've taken for wanting to be a stay at home mother.

There is room for both roles but feminism has got to start looking at it's own bad behavior to start making new strides.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to kitttty)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 6:31:16 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
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quote:

I'm not talking about the use of labels within the movement:  I'm talking about the use of labels outside the movement as control mechanisms for discouraging further participation in feminism. "Radical feminist" is a label which has been used as a pejorative, serves as a means of demonizing feminism, and is especially effective to discourage people from reading the source material. 


Source material? Are you talking about Adler, Chodorow, Zillah Eisenstein, Rhonda Levine, et al?
Or Pop celebs like Steinem and Dworkin?

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RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 6:35:12 PM   
kitttty


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quote:

And my experience is the reverse. I can not even begin to tell how much shit I've taken for wanting to be a stay at home mother.


Everyone I know who has been both a working mother and a SAHM has told me that they experienced more disparagement when they were working mothers out of personal desire.

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Profile   Post #: 99
RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 6:37:14 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kitttty

quote:

And my experience is the reverse. I can not even begin to tell how much shit I've taken for wanting to be a stay at home mother.


Everyone I know who has been both a working mother and a SAHM has told me that they experienced more disparagement when they were working mothers out of personal desire.


What makes your experience and their experiences as women more valid than my experience as a woman and the experiences of my friends?

We can not look at this from different points of view and go "I'm right, I suffer more". We need to look at this and realize that both sides are right and make an effort to fix the problems.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to kitttty)
Profile   Post #: 100
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