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RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 8:03:25 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline 		Can you honestly tell me that every woman in that culture wants their husbands and fathers sent off to camps?

I know the situation is bad. But camps aren't the answer. I don't know what the answer is, but I know that isn't it.

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Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

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(in reply to ShaktiSama)
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RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 8:06:54 PM   
kitttty


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quote:

No. My problem was that you said you would force them to do what you think they should do even if they don't want to and you would take their husbands away from them even if they don't want you to.


The don't want their husbands gone because they've been brainwashed every day of their lives to believe that they are inferior and neccesarily dependent on men for everything. They have no access to free information even if they can read and they have no skills to support themselves because they have been denied the right to even look out the window. But I bet they all would choose differently if they could.

I am sure that many do not want their husbands taken away from them but putting their husbands away is justice because their husbands are perpetrators of all kinds of human rights abuses.

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RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 8:07:43 PM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kitttty

quote:


Ugh. That's one of the most euro-centric things I've ever read. I can't believe you would force your will onto other women like that - that makes you as bad as the men.


Man, I am tired of ignorant self centered western women that tell us non white girls from the developing world that our cultures which systematically rape, brutalize and burn us alive are somehow to be tolerated in the name of multicultural horseshit.

Tell me how many aunts you have that are married to their uncle twice their age who have never ventured outside their house after dark because in your society its unacceptable. You tell me the number and I'll tell you the number of them Iv'e got.

Do you know anyone in the taliban? I do. Have you ever been denied a train ticket because you were a woman travelling alone?

Yeah, valuing literacy is euro centric. WTF. The taliban poisened 12 yr old girls to death for trying to go to school to learn to read and some privleged women in the west sit there and tell themselves they shouldn't judge some government that makes 1000 laws against women being people.

Let me tell you there are a lot worse things in the world than being 'eurocentric'. Being indifferent to other people's extreme oppression is one of them.


Are you really from Chad? Lots of shit going on there at the moment.

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Fake the heat and scratch the itch
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Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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Profile   Post #: 143
RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 8:08:51 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline 		I realize how bad the situation is but that logic is very dangerous - it can easily be used to say that we should not be able to submit to our dominants and that we are brainwashed. There are people who believe this.

I firmly believe in educating the women and trying to make it safe for them to live the lives that they want to live, but I don't think it's wise for us to tell them how they should live those lives.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to kitttty)
Profile   Post #: 144
RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 8:10:04 PM   
ShaktiSama


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

Can you honestly tell me that every woman in that culture wants their husbands and fathers sent off to camps?.


In the first place--the Taliban is not a "culture" per se.  It is a political movement.  And the force that this political movement exercised in the lives of the people of Afghanistan was horrific in many ways.  It included, among other things, brutally repressive laws which exerted autocratic control over the lives of both men and women.  Men could be beaten in the streets for having the wrong haircut.  Women could be savagely beaten for being alone on the street without a male accompanying them--a fairly brutal hardship for a woman to face when she was driven to leave the house daily to earn food for her children, after her husband's death.

Islamic culture in different parts of the world is a different thing.  No indeed, most Muslim women do not want anything to happen to their men--not least because their societies do not allow proper participation in the economy for women on their own.  A woman without men to fend for her often faces significant hardship along the lines of starvation.

Camps are never a good answer for anyone, but neither is it a great idea to talk about cultural "-centricty" without information.  There are many women in many cultures around the world who are trying to fight for social and political justice--for themselves AND their men.

_____________________________

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea."
-- Robert A. Heinlein

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RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 8:14:04 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
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Status: offline 		In this case, I think it would be very cruel to make women adjust to new style of life overnight. I really don't think anyone who seriously endorses this has the best interests of the women at heart, just their political agenda.

PS. Slightly off-topic, have you read up about the women's rights movement in Africa? It's pretty interesting.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to ShaktiSama)
Profile   Post #: 146
RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 8:14:27 PM   
fluffyswitch


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama

Camps are never a good answer for anyone, but neither is it a great idea to talk about cultural "-centricty" without information.  There are many women in many cultures around the world who are trying to fight for social and political justice--for themselves AND their men.


i'd like to remind everyone too that -centrism is bad but so is overgeneralization--there is plenty of cross cultural work going on that is attempting to overcome -centrism of all forms. if these types of debates degenerate into discussion of who has the more legitimate knowledge on any aspect of this debate, nothing will be accomplished.


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Profile   Post #: 147
RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 8:30:11 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama

Laws and social practice are often arranged in a dialectic fashion.


Which is not necessarily a desireable thing.

quote:

Cutting back on the privileged status of male sexuality is not necessarily a bad thing, even if this is done by means of an unenforceable laws.


So, removing rights is acceptable, as long as they are male rights?

By that argument, everything would be fine if, instead of giving women the right to vote, we'd removed men's right to it instead.
My reasoning is that adding liberties is a good thing, and that raising the minimum is the better way to improve the average.

quote:

...the feminists of the Temperance movement still won the battle.


At what cost?

Killing people is an acceptable way to achieve feminist goals by that line of reasoning.

quote:

Domestic violence was not magically ended, nor did alcoholism disappear--but both were decreased by an order of magnitude in our society.


An order of magnitude would put the original figure past 100%, if my memory serves.

quote:

But the "women like you do more damage than misogynists" line of logic is and has always been nonsense, in my opinion.


I've seen this line of reasoning create misogynists. That may be what he referred to.

quote:

Tthe same sort of false logic argues that unions to protect workers somehow hurt the workers--or that people who fought against segregation in the American South during the Civil Rights movement were somehow hurting African-Americans...


There is something of a difference between saying that deaths are acceptable to enact a change, and saying people should be equal.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to ShaktiSama)
Profile   Post #: 148
RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 8:33:32 PM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

So, removing rights is acceptable, as long as they are male rights?


Yeah. if the 'male right' is the right to have all the medical resources spent on studying heart disease in men, while denying effective treatment to women. Or if the 'male right' is the old standard of 'domestic violence is none of law enforcement's business' crap.

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Profile   Post #: 149
RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 8:35:01 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kitttty

Unless we are saying that the male counterparts mean the opposite of radical feminists as in the taliban or something.


For the Taliban to be the counterparts (complements would be a better word), that would mean that your view of radical feminism is violent female supremacy with the torture and oppression of men as a valid angle of approach.

How does gender figure in whether it's right to put them in a Battle Royale scenario?

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to kitttty)
Profile   Post #: 150
RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 8:36:30 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kitttty

Damn straight I would. I'm the one who's allowed to read books.


So you'd override their right to choose.

I've read more than most men and women in my country; does this mean I am entitled to choose for them?

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to kitttty)
Profile   Post #: 151
RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 8:45:44 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kitttty

The don't want their husbands gone because they've been brainwashed every day of their lives to believe that they are inferior and neccesarily dependent on men for everything.


What you refer to as brainwashing happens in the West, too... it's called child rearing. The difference is whether you find the social mores abhorrent or not. To my views, my country has values (no, not relating to women; in that area, I'm happy enough) that are as despicable as those you mention here. What is it that asserts that it is right for your values to override those of the women you mentioned, while it is not right for my values to override those in Norway?

quote:

I am sure that many do not want their husbands taken away from them but putting their husbands away is justice because their husbands are perpetrators of all kinds of human rights abuses.


I only perpetrate a few kinds of human rights abuses. I have her prior consent. The declaration of human rights does not recognize her right to give me that consent, however. Should I deny her the life she wants because it's in line with the declaration of human rights that she must be a non-consensual slave to a piece of paper?

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to kitttty)
Profile   Post #: 152
RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 8:57:23 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Yeah. if the 'male right' is the right to have all the medical resources spent on studying heart disease in men, while denying effective treatment to women.


I'm not sufficiently familiar to comment on the specifics of that, but for a lot of other medications, it simply isn't profitable.
And capitalists are generally not in favor of discriminating in a way that doesn't pay off.

quote:

Or if the 'male right' is the old standard of 'domestic violence is none of law enforcement's business' crap.


That's not a right, but the lack of a protection.
As with the other one, you are trying to deduct a negative.
Adding protection in this case is the simple resolution, n'est-çe pas?

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 153
RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 9:01:26 PM   
kitttty


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quote:


So you'd override their right to choose.


There's no logic here. In this country many wives of inmates might want their husbands back, but it does not matter. In their countries, if the husbands are guilty of genocide and assault as defined by western standard then why should it matter if the wives don't want their husbands to meet justice?

And yes, it is perfectly reasonable to apply primarily western standards of human rights to any country in the world.

Ive chosen to be owned by a Master who beats me and I am free. But its a choice that is only valid if made in circumstances that can be called freedom. What that is will never be 100% clear, but there is no reason to get into some angels on a pinhead debate about whether or not those living under the taliban have an equally valid concept of choice as those living in a western democracy.

Who is the western world to tell the people of Afghanistan how to live? Well who the hell are the taliban to tell them how to live? Someone's going to define the values by which a society is run, so why advocate for values which are abhorrent to us?

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 154
RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 9:03:16 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		And which cause direct and clear cut harm

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Profile   Post #: 155
RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 9:05:34 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kitttty

And yes, it is perfectly reasonable to apply primarily western standards of human rights to any country in the world.


I will profoundly disagree with that, and discontinue that aspect of the debate on my part.

It's late, and I have some human rights to violate before I go to bed.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to kitttty)
Profile   Post #: 156
RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 9:09:02 PM   
kitttty


Posts: 494
Joined: 10/10/2007
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quote:

In this case, I think it would be very cruel to make women adjust to new style of life overnight. I really don't think anyone who seriously endorses this has the best interests of the women at heart, just their political agenda.


Essentially they had to adjust to this over a very few years. The taliban movement started in India and was financed by Saudi Arabia and by the US as well indirectly. Traditional Afghan culture has nothing to do with this. In 1979 the women were going to have overnight adjust to equality under marxist rule as a USSR satelite. Frankly, the women would probably have been better off if that adjustment had been made possible.

In Iran under the shah, women had to make some overnight adjustments and they were much better off because of it.

An authoritarian regime that mandates gender equality is the better alternative that an authoritarian regime that makes it impossible. In the middle east, these have been the only two choices out there.

(in reply to AquaticSub)
Profile   Post #: 157
RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 9:09:48 PM   
ShaktiSama


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
I've seen this line of reasoning create misogynists. That may be what he referred to.


No, you have never seen this line of reasoning create a miosgynist.  But I am sure you have seen a woman who challenges patriarchy reveal misogyny in men who would have preferred to be thought of as enlightened or egalitarian. 

This sort of logic is nonsense--but it's a pretty common way of threatening people who try to advocate positive social change.  The truth is that misogynists are responsible for their own hatefulness, just as racists and homophobes and other bigots are responsible for their hatefulness.

Bigots are not created by their victims, and challenging the powerful and the privileged does not justify their retaliation or their scorn.

Their hatred and contempt are pre-existing conditions.

_____________________________

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea."
-- Robert A. Heinlein

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 158
RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 9:15:23 PM   
kitttty


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quote:


I will profoundly disagree with that, and discontinue that aspect of the debate on my part.


I actually met Hirsi Ali a few years ago, another like minded woman from the viciously mysoginistic part of the world who cannot stand this pseudo liberal nonsense about how not everyone deserves human rights.

It's honestly a shameful position people take. If it is yours, you are profoundly wrong. Cultures might be accepted by most of those within a culture, but cultures can still be wrong. I think it takes only one dissident to prove that the cultures are wrong beyond any doubt.

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Profile   Post #: 159
RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 9:26:11 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama

No, you have never seen this line of reasoning create a miosgynist.  But I am sure you have seen a woman who challenges patriarchy reveal misogyny in men who would have preferred to be thought of as enlightened or egalitarian.


No. That is not what I am referring to. I am referring to a genderless trait in humans: overgeneralization.

Your line of reasoning with regard to killing being an acceptable way to go about creating change, scares people who are not scared of the changes themselves, but are scared of the methods being deemed acceptable. Consequently, they end up forming an irrational association between the change and the methods. That generalisation is unproductive, but people do it all the time.

quote:

This sort of logic is nonsense--but it's a pretty common way of threatening people who try to advocate positive social change.


No, the process it references is nonsense. A subtle difference.

Let me use an example... if I want BDSM to become accepted, and I do... then I do advocate being public about it, e.g. leashes instead of holding hands, or whatever. But I do not advocate having a burly-looking guy in a skimpy leather outfit standing in a busy mall, beating his girl into a screaming frenzy, even if she thinks that's the hottest fantasy ever. Neither do I advocate that it's okay for some few people to get tricked into legal slavery as part of a process to make it possible to legally enforce M/s (some people, on both ends of the leash, actually do want that, as I'm sure you know).

Somewhat poor examples, but I was off to bed, so I hope you'll choose to try to discern my point with benevolence.

quote:

The truth is that misogynists are responsible for their own hatefulness, just as racists and homophobes and other bigots are responsible for their hatefulness.


Quite agree. In fact, I go a lot further in regard to holding people accountable, but that wasn't the point.

quote:

Their hatred and contempt are pre-existing conditions.


Humans fear what they don't understand, and hate what they fear... it's a pretty universal thing.

Giving them cause to fear the methods doesn't legitimize their response of attaching hatred to the goal the methods are applied to.
But it's still a pretty clear causal relationship, and one might want to be strategic enough to focus on the goal.

Anyway, off to bed.

Health,
al-Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to ShaktiSama)
Profile   Post #: 160
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