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RE: Rant: Abuse, Cheating, Worthlessness - 9/9/2005 12:18:50 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		How would you feel if Beth wanted to be intimate with a 20 year old male GQ model ... and told you in advance?

This thread does finally seem to be going somewhere, and I really respect your opinion on disclosure/discovery. I just fall on the other end of the spectrum. You want to know in advance, I just wouldn't want to know at all. I don't have a spouse, but have had some serious boyfriends. Not the same I know, but perhaps a good enough sample group for this thread.

If you ask me, by the time a boyfriend (or spouse) gets up the nerve to tell you he wants to be with another person, he has already decided that he is going to do it. That means mentally, my choices are now limited to:

a) not finding out at all, knowing nothing and having nothing on which to base hard feelings or feelings in inadequacy.

b) finding out after the fact, with all the hard feelings and feelings of inadequacy that might entail.

To me, being told in advance is a long ways from a), and pretty close to b).

< Message edited by caitlyn -- 9/9/2005 2:01:21 PM >

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: Rant: Abuse, Cheating, Worthlessness - 9/9/2005 12:20:26 PM   
luvdragonx


Posts: 388
Joined: 6/22/2005
Status: offline 		I'm really curious about resentment some people have about getting others opinions on their personal lives, especially when they post information about their personal lives on a public message board. I just don't understand it.

When you post "This is what I've chosen to do, how do I make it work?" and people offer up their opinions on how/why it should or shouldn't work, the Shouldn'ts are accused of forcing their morals onto someone else, but the Shoulds are okay because they agree, I guess. Some of the naysayers are probably speaking strictly from their own opinion of what you're doing. Other naysayers could be speaking from first hand experience with what you propose to do. The same goes for the advocates - they could be speaking from personal experience, or they could be just speaking from opinion without any basis other than that's what they 'think'. Why are folks so eager to accept the agreement from someone who has no experience, yet critical and resentful toward the one with experience who disagrees?

Whether they take the "Moral High Road" or an alternate route, 9 times out of 10, the poster is just looking for validation, not honest opinions (someone said that already). I think it's easy to tell who they are: they get defensive when contradicted and insist on defending themselves, not the idea or situation that is being discussed. Then they call the dissenters narrow-minded, judgmental and morally oppressive.

When honesty is dropped on the table here, there are going to be really strong opinions about it. It's unfair to ask people for their honest opinions on what you should do if you're not willing to be honest with them. Some folks feel comfortable giving others advice without having all the facts. Other people don't. Likewise, some people are ok with receiving advise from people who don't know the whole story. Others aren't. Bottom line: If you aren't willing to give all the facts, maybe a public message board isn't the place to ask, because the questions will arise.

Probably the LOUDEST and most visible chant on this BDSM board is "Open, Honest Communication". The general concensus is that it takes honest and open communication to engage in healthy, successful BDSM relationships. If you are just looking for play only, that's a little different, and will probably change the tone of some of the responses.

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RE: Rant: Abuse, Cheating, Worthlessness - 9/9/2005 12:47:00 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

How would you feel if Beth wanted to be intimate with a 20 year old male GQ model ... and told you in advance?


caitlyn,
My answer is the same regardless of the specific situation. It's a trust/honesty issue, not sensation or appearance. Although I don't think that a 20-year old could provide anything I couldn't. Not YET anyway!

quote:

If you ask me, by the time a boyfriend (or spouse) gets up the nerve to tell you he wants to be with another person, he has already decided that he is going to do it.


WHY??????? There is so much LESS hurt with the truth and so much more potentially GREAT experiences to be had if you share them with someone you love.

Damn - That's the problem. Why should personal feelings, especially intense ones be kept hidden from someone you love and who loves you? What is love if not trust? Love isn't jealousy it's just the opposite. It's confidence that no sensation can replace the emotional sensational that you share with your partner. With that thought in mind, if beth told me that she wanted to enjoy an experience that involved someone else, I'd make the decision as her Master/owner contingent only on her safety. I'd do my best to insure that safety. Once that was established, I'd be pleased and satisfied to know I facilitated her happiness and enjoyment without guilt. I know she feels the same way.

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Rant: Abuse, Cheating, Worthlessness - 9/9/2005 1:12:36 PM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: luvdragonx

I'm really curious about resentment some people have about getting others opinions on their personal lives, especially when they post information about their personal lives on a public message board. I just don't understand it.

When you post "This is what I've chosen to do, how do I make it work?" and people offer up their opinions on how/why it should or shouldn't work, the Shouldn'ts are accused of forcing their morals onto someone else, but the Shoulds are okay because they agree, I guess. Some of the naysayers are probably speaking strictly from their own opinion of what you're doing. Other naysayers could be speaking from first hand experience with what you propose to do. The same goes for the advocates - they could be speaking from personal experience, or they could be just speaking from opinion without any basis other than that's what they 'think'. Why are folks so eager to accept the agreement from someone who has no experience, yet critical and resentful toward the one with experience who disagrees?

Whether they take the "Moral High Road" or an alternate route, 9 times out of 10, the poster is just looking for validation, not honest opinions (someone said that already). I think it's easy to tell who they are: they get defensive when contradicted and insist on defending themselves, not the idea or situation that is being discussed. Then they call the dissenters narrow-minded, judgmental and morally oppressive.

When honesty is dropped on the table here, there are going to be really strong opinions about it. It's unfair to ask people for their honest opinions on what you should do if you're not willing to be honest with them. Some folks feel comfortable giving others advice without having all the facts. Other people don't. Likewise, some people are ok with receiving advise from people who don't know the whole story. Others aren't. Bottom line: If you aren't willing to give all the facts, maybe a public message board isn't the place to ask, because the questions will arise.

Probably the LOUDEST and most visible chant on this BDSM board is "Open, Honest Communication". The general concensus is that it takes honest and open communication to engage in healthy, successful BDSM relationships. If you are just looking for play only, that's a little different, and will probably change the tone of some of the responses.

Ummm, ditto.

(in reply to luvdragonx)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Rant: Abuse, Cheating, Worthlessness - 9/9/2005 2:13:35 PM   
Aileen68


Posts: 6091
Joined: 8/2/2005
Status: offline 		Ok...this is not a reply to Emerald but to all... Going back to my original post about lack of safety. Let's say I posted it like this: Hi all, I was wondering if you could help and give me some advice with a problem I am encountering. I have just moved here from a foreign country and I know know one. I have just started a new job and just moved into a new apartment. I plan on meeting someone from this site, but I hesitate because I have no options for any means of a safe call, etc. Neither my family nor friends know of my interest in this and since they are thousands of miles from here and don't speak the language they wouldn't be able to help much. What should I do?
So...here I am at the same end result of my situation but under completely different circumstances. Does that warrent a different answer to my safety question. And why should a safety question which is neutral become so controversial. Should that original question have been bogged down by peoples opinions of my life choices? Or maybe people might have looked at the fact that since I was asking it and putting myself on the spot that maybe I really did need help with THAT answer.
I have to tell you...if one of the goals of answering posts here is to inform those who are learning then I think you all may have just scared off a lot of new people from ever asking legitimate questions if they even think that there may be a chance of getting bashed. I have no problem with people expressing opinions, but I wasn't asking what you thought about my moral choices. You may do more harm in the long run. I know I for one will probably never post another question here again. Things that I may encounter in this lifestyle will now be dealt with just my limited knowledge.

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)
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RE: Rant: Abuse, Cheating, Worthlessness - 9/9/2005 2:31:36 PM   
luvdragonx


Posts: 388
Joined: 6/22/2005
Status: offline 		Aileen, I would suggest the same thing in this scenario that I suggested in response to your Safety thread - make some friends locally who are BDSM friendly.

When you first posted your question, you got advice based on what you said. It turned out the advice you got wouldn't work because you left some information out. Granted, you can tell how much or how little you want, but you should consider that the quality of the advice can directly relate to the quality of the information given. Some people then told you that they didn't know how to advise you in that situation. Some people told you that you shouldn't cheat. Others came to your defense. It was a pretty mixed group of responses, and some fairly good advice came out of it, given what there was to work with.

You got advice and responses to your question that had nothing to do with your marital status, along with ones that had nothing to do with advice and everything to do with your marital status. Ignore the ones you want, read the ones you want. There are plenty people who don't care about your marital status or your reasons for doing what you do, and they will respond accordingly, just give them time to find your threads. Why would you abandon a good pool of experience in this forum because a few people said something you didn't like?

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RE: Rant: Abuse, Cheating, Worthlessness - 9/9/2005 2:35:56 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		Well ... I read Aileen's post, and it seems to me that what she was asking, was options on how to have a safe meeting when you are not able to tell anyone about it. This did seem to be a very specific question. I seemed to miss the part where she said, "Hey everyone, I'm cheating. Does anyone have an opinion on my private life?"

I guess I missed it, because it wasn't actually there.

No offense intended, but it seems illogical to blame the person that had their topic "so expanded", for opening themselved on this board.

(in reply to luvdragonx)
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RE: Rant: Abuse, Cheating, Worthlessness - 9/9/2005 2:42:23 PM   
Aileen68


Posts: 6091
Joined: 8/2/2005
Status: offline 		I know that you always get a wide variety of answers. that goes without saying. Believe me...I am NOT trying to justify where I am or my choices thus far. I am not happy with my situation. But that's my personal business. I am able to wade through all the opinions and find the answers. I coud easily point out that I know countless people who would think that all that occurs within this site is extremely immoral. My point being...it's all a matter of perspective. And no I'm not saying that cheating is all right. It's not and that's why I haven't. It sometimes feels like the girls bathroom in high school in these forums... Very cliquey and very opinionated...dress right, be friends with the in crowd, and say the right things or watch out.

(in reply to luvdragonx)
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RE: Rant: Abuse, Cheating, Worthlessness - 9/9/2005 3:08:33 PM   
luvdragonx


Posts: 388
Joined: 6/22/2005
Status: offline 		caitlyn,

No one blames the OP for the direction other people choose to take a discussion. I think the OP is responsible for how he/she interprets the change in direction. In this case, she didn't have to get upset about it, she could have ignored the opinions she didn't agree with and continued in the direction she wanted.


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RE: Rant: Abuse, Cheating, Worthlessness - 9/9/2005 3:11:09 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
caitlyn -
I think that because Aileen expanded on why she could no 'safe call' opened the floodgate, caitlyn. If you post something on a message board like this - you have to be prepared for the outpouring both good and bad. If it had remained just about safecalls without opening herslef up - of course nothing like those judgements would have happened - so in a way, Aileen opened herself to get those comments.

Not saying that it is great that it happened - but it does show her who she can speak to, and who she can avoid. Instead of looking at what happened and seperating into good and bad - she - and others, can learn from the whole event, and thats a really positive thing.

Aileen -
As for being unable to post - thats not something I would recommend doing. We are all human and we have to be responsible for ourselves. So some people dont always agree and there will be those who will ridicule and try to shout you down. I get it all the time for my religious belief or my love of bloodplay - but do I submit to those that would want to silence or ridicule me? No. Because I have a voice and I have the right to be heard. No one knows me, just like no one knows You or your situation - but that doesnt make you less of a person with any less rights. I would strongly recommend you find strength within yourself to continue posting and to look past any ridicule and learn from those that would dismiss your attempts in self discovery - and concentrate on finding the positive, even in the negative.

Mercandbeth -
I would just say, that although I understand your inability to 'get' deception of say - cheating - something to consider is that you dont know an individuals position. And - using Aileen as an example(sorry Aileen - please forgive me) - maybe something to consider is that no all people are as strong as say, Merc - and sometimes a forum like this is the first step. We all know that online is nothing like taking it into life - but for some the internet and message boards like this are the first step for some. Maybe this openness that Aileen offered, was a first step in becoming more open in her everyday life - baby steps - it helps if people like yourself admit that to you, its wrong and its something you cant understand - it also helps not to judge harshly on the word(cheating), but to discover more about the person and their situation. And if that doesnt sit right - then to just ignore. I am in no way trying to 'tell' you or others what to do - just trying to offer over the thought that when entering something new and exciting and suddenly being open and true about their desires is scarey and daunting to some people - and the strength that people like yourself or I have can seem overwhelmingly painful to someone as fragile and new to the 'scene'. There will always be those people who fuck about and troll and just wont ever 'get it' - but there are some individuals who are aching and who are truely just reaching out to find themself. And they might make illogical and painful mistakes - but then, no ones perfect and if someones showing willingness to learn - doesnt that make sense?

Peace and Love

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.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to caitlyn)
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RE: Rant: Abuse, Cheating, Worthlessness - 9/9/2005 3:13:43 PM   
luvdragonx


Posts: 388
Joined: 6/22/2005
Status: offline
Aileen,

I read the thread too, and out of 30-plus responses, only 2 posts made direct reference to this alleged cheating as being wrong or precluding you from getting any advice. Everyone else offered suggestions. I didn't understand why, out of 30 posts, you chose to focus on the 2 that you felt called your character into question. I'm willing to bet that had you not responded to the accusations and negative comments, and continued the way you were doing, the subject - at least from that poster - would have dropped. So out of all the positive and constructive feedback you got from your question, you say you will never seek advice or ask questions here because a couple of people disagree with something you posted - I don't get it. Try also considering that some people don't feel comfortable giving advice in a situation that may go against what they feel is right. They don't feel right telling you how to do something they personally wouldn't do. The best thing for you would be if they didn't say anything at all, but we both know that's not going to happen :). If you read back through threads from just the last month, you will find that many people post and don't care what others think. Cliques exist everywhere, but I honestly haven't seen any around here. Maybe I'm not looking hard enough. At any rate, I hope you reconsider your decision to bail on the forums, they really are a good place to pick up info, if you're willing to sort through it.

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RE: Rant: Abuse, Cheating, Worthlessness - 9/9/2005 3:16:28 PM   
Aileen68


Posts: 6091
Joined: 8/2/2005
Status: offline 		The problem is that often times...and I've seen it in a lot of posts (even though I've only recently been participating I've been reading here for quite some time)...those controversial opinions start to take over the posts and the original topic is lost. I wasn't upset. I didn't lose any sleep over it. I just don't sleep because I have awful insomnia. Maybe now this post will start discussing cures for lack of sleep. I certainly have not meant to step on any toes...I am new to this and that's probably why I was so surprised at the shift in direction.

(in reply to luvdragonx)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Rant: Abuse, Cheating, Worthlessness - 9/9/2005 3:20:48 PM   
Aileen68


Posts: 6091
Joined: 8/2/2005
Status: offline 		I actually received a lot of personal messages... some were good and some were not. A lot that was discussed didn't happen on this board.

(in reply to luvdragonx)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Rant: Abuse, Cheating, Worthlessness - 9/9/2005 3:28:46 PM   
luvdragonx


Posts: 388
Joined: 6/22/2005
Status: offline 		Oh.....well, that is the nature of message boards, like a collective stream of consciousness, or the Whisper Game. One person says something, the next person interprets it, then the next person comments on the previous person, not the OP....it goes on from there, and unfortunately will never change. It's perfectly okay to pop in and bring the discussion back on topic if you still want more information or feedback.

Now on the subject of personal email - I better keep my mouth shut on that one. Another example of how an added bit of information, e.g. people emailing you as opposed to posting, can change the perception of the situation. I wasn't privy to the knowledge that people have emailed you with their opinions, but now that I know, I can empathize more with your being gunshy about posting further. I would still encourage you to shake the haters off and keep your learning avenues open.


Edited: because I said I wouldn't comment on emailing.

< Message edited by luvdragonx -- 9/9/2005 3:29:30 PM >

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Never Without Love

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RE: Rant: Abuse, Cheating, Worthlessness - 9/9/2005 3:28:58 PM   
Aileen68


Posts: 6091
Joined: 8/2/2005
Status: offline 		But then you had the entire My Neighbors TV post
quote:

ORIGINAL: luvdragonx


Aileen,

I read the thread too, and out of 30-plus responses, only 2 posts made direct reference to this alleged cheating as being wrong or precluding you from getting any advice. Everyone else offered suggestions. I didn't understand why, out of 30 posts, you chose to focus on the 2 that you felt called your character into question. I'm willing to bet that had you not responded to the accusations and negative comments, and continued the way you were doing, the subject - at least from that poster - would have dropped. So out of all the positive and constructive feedback you got from your question, you say you will never seek advice or ask questions here because a couple of people disagree with something you posted - I don't get it. Try also considering that some people don't feel comfortable giving advice in a situation that may go against what they feel is right. They don't feel right telling you how to do something they personally wouldn't do. The best thing for you would be if they didn't say anything at all, but we both know that's not going to happen :). If you read back through threads from just the last month, you will find that many people post and don't care what others think. Cliques exist everywhere, but I honestly haven't seen any around here. Maybe I'm not looking hard enough. At any rate, I hope you reconsider your decision to bail on the forums, they really are a good place to pick up info, if you're willing to sort through it.


(in reply to luvdragonx)
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RE: Rant: Abuse, Cheating, Worthlessness - 9/9/2005 3:49:30 PM   
luvdragonx


Posts: 388
Joined: 6/22/2005
Status: offline 		Some people know when to say soemthing and others don't. It was clear to me from your thread on safety that what you wanted/needed to hear was not a lesson on morals and marriage. You already have your own thoughts on your life - it is your life after all - and since you didn't ask for my opinion on your married life, I didn't give it. I have my own opinons on that kind of situation, based on my own experiences, but you don't need that right now.

Like darkangel said, you're looking for reassurance in this part of your life, BDSM and how to proceed. There are some people who can't or don't separate matters of honesty in non-BDSM life from BDSM life, it's all or nothing. There are others who can and do. There will be people who will offer any help they can. There will be others who aren't helpful at all. I hope I haven't been one of the latter.

Just as there are rants (like this thread) on people who seem to think they are on the "Moral High Road" , there will be whole threads (like the one you mentioned) on people who choose a different path. Rest assured, you aren't the first to feel the heat on this subject and you won't be the last. There will be new controversy tomorrow and the day after. Don't take too much to heart, this really isn't a bad place to be.

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Never Without Love

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RE: Rant: Abuse, Cheating, Worthlessness - 9/9/2005 4:03:50 PM   
Aileen68


Posts: 6091
Joined: 8/2/2005
Status: offline 		I know....it's all part of life and I definitely don't hold any opinions against anyone. If we all thought the same way the world would be very boring wouldn't it?

(in reply to luvdragonx)
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RE: Rant: Abuse, Cheating, Worthlessness - 9/9/2005 4:12:12 PM   
luvdragonx


Posts: 388
Joined: 6/22/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen68

I know....it's all part of life and I definitely don't hold any opinions against anyone. If we all thought the same way the world would be very boring wouldn't it?



Most definitely

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Never Without Love

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RE: Rant: Abuse, Cheating, Worthlessness - 9/9/2005 4:40:53 PM   
subcheryl


Posts: 280
Joined: 11/2/2004
Status: offline 		not to be jugdemental aileen but perhaps some are just trying to say that you should really consider talking to hubby about trying to meet others involve him in the meeting of "the get to know stage" so he can help you decide if the person is safe also, but I for one would hate for you to possibly loose him because he wasn't aware of the fact you were out there searching and then found out second hand. and I do think you would find the experience more satisfying if you didn't have to "sneak" around, I know for myself I would feel so guilty, be afraid all the time someone would see me and tell the S.O. and just couldn't relax enough, But that is my opinion and not meaning to jugde you, just a different way to look at it ok

(in reply to Aileen68)
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RE: Rant: Abuse, Cheating, Worthlessness - 9/9/2005 5:15:16 PM   
Phoenixandnika


Posts: 748
Joined: 4/22/2005
From: Aberdeen Maryland
Status: offline 		Greetings,

I learned a this lesson hard along time ago. When posting within any public forum especially one as diverce as this you should be prepared for responses of all kinds. Some will be supportive, give adive, others will condemn, others willhave NOTHING to do with the main topic, others will simply look to flame or stir up the pot. The reality is that you and I can not control how others respond to our posts, we can simply control how we react to them. We can either take them personally, take them at face value, or simply ignore them totally.


quote:

If you ask me, by the time a boyfriend (or spouse) gets up the nerve to tell you he wants to be with another person, he has already decided that he is going to do it.

I personally have to disagree with this statement. Perhaps he simply being honest! Perhaps instead of just doing it he and facing the fall out he wants to come to you for input. Without communication , without trust, without honesty how can you maintain ANY relationship? Perhaps by communication your wants and needs you might suprise yourself , maybe the situation will go as you thought, but you are makinga choose that affects more than just yourself.

I have personally gone to my Master and said, " Master I would like a pet." That does not mean I will take one with out his permission. Or that I have already done so. That is me opening the line of communication. The reality is he may say now, he may say yes. He but what ever happens He will decide what is safest forme, for us, for our family as a whole.

This is just a suggestion, but if meeting someone and you have no one to tell, you could always do something like email yourself the information or write itin a journal. You could also mail it to yourself. I know those suggestion seem strange, and in no way am I condoning not telling the prson your involved with but if this is what you choose to do these are ways to meet someone and still have a safety net of some kind.

Live is like a fun house of mirrors. You will always get a different perception of the same thing in differnt mirros. Some times your reflection is distorted or manipulated other times you can not see it al all, sometimes it is truly you that you see. In the end you must descide which is the real reflection of you and which is simply a fun house mirror.

Nika, Phoenix's Gothic Slave

< Message edited by Phoenixandnika -- 9/9/2005 5:16:11 PM >

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