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RE: Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop - 2/7/2008 4:06:00 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

This is what happens when you appease evil instead of standing up to it. Europe is doomed.



lol the evil doers............ah yes, the backstage party in paradise.....

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RE: Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop - 2/7/2008 4:19:51 PM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		Religion and politics never did mix well, my opinnion, the arch bishop, a non elected leader of a church, should not be involving himself in politics. From what I see of the story, the arch bishop has done himself no favours with such a stupid idea, as here, we have a law, a law which binds us all regardless of  faith, culture, belief, race or origin. Fine it might not suit us all, and most of us will have parts we do not like for whatever reason, but it exists for us all to follow with no exceptions.

As to immigrants and nationals who have a religion where our law  is in their thoughts not applicable, they are wrong, they don't like it and it is that much of a problem, then they can exercise their right to find a country that does have what they seek. No one should come here seeking to change things to suit themselves.

That is my only thought against those that seek to come to this country, they must obey our laws and tow the line like everyone else, other than that, they can please themselves, be who they like, dress how they like whatever.


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RE: Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop - 2/7/2008 5:19:39 PM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline 		I'm just sayin' I've seen it before:
http://www.jurispub.com/093/cultural-issues-in-criminal-defense-second

I'm not justifying it per se...



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Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop - 2/7/2008 6:06:10 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline 		The good Dr has it wrong when he says:

quote:


...there's one law for everybody and that's all there is to be said, and anything else that commands your loyalty or allegiance is completely irrelevant in the processes of the courts - I think that's a bit of a danger.


One nation
One government
One law

Anything else is chaos.

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RE: Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop - 2/7/2008 8:50:42 PM   
kitttty


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quote:


I also believe that some Muslim communities in the UK settle their disputes now according to some form of Sharia law.


They might. They tried that in Canada for a short while and then brought and end to it.

People like to say that they do not mind shariah law within the framework of the greater democratic legal system if shariah is used to make judgements on minor issues. But even this became problematic as Canada saw. Believe it, you can't have any minor form of shariah law existing within the western system without there being a conflict of interests. But not to worry as there is almost no chance of shariah law even taking over even a fundementalist muslim community in the UK. It certainly will never govern the population at large.

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RE: Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop - 2/8/2008 12:08:13 AM   
RCdc


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quote:


I also believe that some Muslim communities in the UK settle their disputes now according to some form of Sharia law.


This is Darcy

I did read somewhere (can't remember the source unfortunately, but I think it was on the BBC website) that they do use Sharia law to settle disputes, but that the resolution is not binding under British law, much the same as if I came to an unofficial 'out-of-court' settlement with another person.

The more I think about the Archbishop's comments, the more I suspect deeper, fouler motives on his part (hey, it's in my nature, don't get me started on 9/11). For instance, by first appealing to the 'politically correct' notion of adopting Sharia law, it would then open up an opportunity for the church to then pass its own laws, effectively enabling them to ignore the law outlawing discrimination against homosexual couples applying to adopt children (the Catholic church's stance on the 'evils' of this always make me furious when on the other hand they effectively turn a blind eye to literally thousands of their own clergy raping young choirboys, but that's another thread for another day).

And should we decide to allow one set of religious laws, where does it stop? Suppose I become a Satanist and declare that I am unable to relate to the current laws forbidding me to indulge in sacrifices, whether animal, human, or otherwise? Can I merely claim I am following my own religious laws and go on a killing spree?

I am pleased, however, that the majority of the response to the Archbishop's comments have been in line with my own, and those reflected in this thread. Obey our laws, or feel free to f**k off elsewhere.

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RE: Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop - 2/8/2008 1:17:09 AM   
givemyall


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Joined: 12/3/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

Obey our laws, or feel free to f**k off elsewhere.


Well said! 

I think that whilst Christian men in this country would be imprisoned for having 2 or more wives, Muslim men are allowed and can even claim benefits for upto 4 wives, it does show that their laws are slowly creeping into place.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=512043&in_page_id=1770   (apologies of this subject has already been covered)


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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop - 2/8/2008 1:20:52 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Darcy: I think you have hit the nail on the head. He was using a a round about way to try to raise the influence of religion in general. He is unquestionably a highly intelligent man, tho' his voice, so unctuous, makes me want to spit feathers, he has made a blunder of monumental proportions.

One law applicable to all, full stop .  In theory anyway lol
This should apply to the conditions of animal slaughter IMO where both Jews and Muslims are allowed concessions.

Private arrangements, say finalising a divorce settlement from a religious point of view = OK.

By the way we had a Muslim cleric last night on the jolly old BBC arguing in favour of Polygamy. he he he he he he

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RE: Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop - 2/8/2008 1:23:30 AM   
kitttty


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quote:


Private arrangements, say finalising a divorce settlement from a religious point of view = OK.


This really shouldn't be ok. Shariah law is clearly intended to disadvantage the woman in cases of divorce and the process of divorce is totally different. The UK has laws about divorce and those should be all that can possibly count. If someone wants to do some shariah by themselves to feel divorced, that's there prerogative but it should have no legal existance whatsoever.

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RE: Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop - 2/8/2008 1:31:09 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		Kittty:
thats basically what I was saying. I agree.
The legally binding divorce conditions to be determined by UK parliament.
Muslims free to make such arrangements as they see fit but include nothing that can override UK law.
If Muslims think that in divorce many wimmen get a disproportionate share of the loot , then they might be right lol

By the way Pigs "is" nice animals regardless of what Jews and Muslims say

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 2/8/2008 1:33:06 AM >

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RE: Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop - 2/8/2008 1:39:10 AM   
givemyall


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

By the way Pigs "is" nice animals regardless of what Jews and Muslims say


 
I don't think the police in Leicester would agree......

LEICESTER—Police here in central England seized a collection of porcelain pigs from a house’s window sill after Muslims complained that they were offensive.
“I just couldn’t believe it, I didn’t know whether to laugh or cry,” Mrs Nancy Bennett, the owner of the 17 miniature pigs.
The porcelain figures were held at the local police station, while Mrs Bennett was threatened with prosecution if she replaces the collection. Her house is located in the same street as the city’s main mosque, meaning that Muslim worshippers often passed by her front window where the pig figurines were on display.
“Muslims find pigs highly offensive,” explained police officer David Griffiths. “That is why the complaints were made".
 

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RE: Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop - 2/8/2008 1:47:50 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
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Status: offline 		There you go, gutless PC liberalism revealed for what it really is !

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RE: Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop - 2/8/2008 2:11:31 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
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quote:

ORIGINAL: givemyall

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

By the way Pigs "is" nice animals regardless of what Jews and Muslims say


 
I don't think the police in Leicester would agree......

LEICESTER—Police here in central England seized a collection of porcelain pigs from a house’s window sill after Muslims complained that they were offensive.
“I just couldn’t believe it, I didn’t know whether to laugh or cry,” Mrs Nancy Bennett, the owner of the 17 miniature pigs.
The porcelain figures were held at the local police station, while Mrs Bennett was threatened with prosecution if she replaces the collection. Her house is located in the same street as the city’s main mosque, meaning that Muslim worshippers often passed by her front window where the pig figurines were on display.
“Muslims find pigs highly offensive,” explained police officer David Griffiths. “That is why the complaints were made".
 


This is Darcy

It's incidents like this that really infuriate me, and yet again seems to suggest that political correctness is running amok, and more importantly making a mockery of both common sense and the law.

I would love to know exactly why these pigs were so offensive to the worshippers, and whether they were 'advised' to complain by a do-gooder politically correct 'watchdog' figure or some such other waste of public money.

And if these small, porcelain, and I suspect rather inoffensive and harmless pigs, who I would guess are guilty of doing nothing more than sittingon their windowsill minding their own business, are so offensive to these worshippers, then I would love to know their thoughts on visiting supermarkets, where *shock, horror* DEAD pigs can be found lurking under the guise of pork chops and sausages, and do they ever venture into the countryside where *shock, horror* REAL, LIVE pigs are kept in a life of slavery and servitude, only to be then slaughtered and fed to the infidel masses who worship at the altar of Tescos and Morrissons?

And how about me? I find it offensive and downright rude for women to wear a burqa while talking to me. How would you like it if I wore a balaclava? Or a motorcycle helmet? More to the point, how far through airport security do you think I'd get wearing a balaclava? (I suspect all I'd get for trying this out in the name of research would be an extended holiday in the sunshine funshine resort of Gitmo, Cuba. )

Yet, if I were to complain, I would no doubt be infringing someone's human, or civil, or religious rights, or even worse be accused of some form of racism.

Don't even get me started on the fact that the radical Islam factions can freely walk the streets of London with banners proclaiming "Kill Whitey" or "Murder the Christian Infidels", but if I were to walk the streets with a banner proclaiming "I hate rag-heads" or "Kill Muslims" then guess who would be back on that plane to Cuba? (To remove any doubt, I do not hold these beliefs, I merely use them as an exaggerated example.)

Grrr. Need more coffee.......

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop - 2/8/2008 2:20:05 AM   
givemyall


Posts: 620
Joined: 12/3/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

[
And how about me? I find it offensive and downright rude for women to wear a burqa while talking to me. How would you like it if I wore a balaclava? Or a motorcycle helmet? More to the point, how far through airport security do you think I'd get wearing a balaclava? (I suspect all I'd get for trying this out in the name of research would be an extended holiday in the sunshine funshine resort of Gitmo, Cuba. )

Yet, if I were to complain, I would no doubt be infringing someone's human, or civil, or religious rights, or even worse be accused of some form of racism.




After reading your comment about the burqa (which I agree with totally), I thought that you may be interested in this story (just incase you have not seen it before).

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=490863&in_page_id=1770

Enjoy the coffee!

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop - 2/8/2008 2:31:33 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		This is Darcy

Thanks for the link givemyall, but after reading that I nearly choked on my coffee!

What's next, Al Jolson day to 'understand' the black communities?

*deep, exasperated sigh*

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RE: Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop - 2/8/2008 4:19:06 AM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		It's funny, the person who caused all this is not a Muslim but I'm thinking no-one is looking at all Anglicans sideways this morning because of Williams' comments.  As far as I'm aware, although there are informal Sharia courts already, no Muslim is making a big deal to demand recognition.  The Anglican Primate may be, but not the Muslims.  But the Muslims get all the anger and vituperation.  What have they done?

Why has no similar reaction happened to the system of Orthodox Jewish Beth Din courts?  They already receive official recognition and have been ruling in just these sorts of cases for years and years.  No-one notices or even cares.  How come they aren't bringing about the end of "all we hold dear"?  Could it be a case of not getting the best silver out for the Browns?

In Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Pakistan and any number of other Muslim countries, alcohol is forbidden.  However, in a spirit of hospitality and lets face it, liberality, alcohol is widely available to Westerners.  Of course, you're expected to drink responsibly - but you can drink.  Its part of your culture and they won't rob you of it.  There are many parts of the USA which are not so tolerant.  Are we less able to accomodate different lifestyles than the Muslim countries mentioned above?

I'm not saying that these courts should be rushed into practise. Its likely that most Muslims will avoid using them: there are plenty of lawyers, both Muslim and non-Muslim, who have enjoyed their custom for ages and that won't alter.  But for those who wish to conduct certain civil cases in accordance with their spritual beliefs, are we so frightened rigid as to not even consider allowing them to do so?  Is our society really so fragile?  Well, I don't think so and all the crap from the Mail won't change that view.  I am simply not "Angry from Tunbridge Wells" and I defy any power, earthly or celestial, Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Jewish, Rastafarian or bloody Jedi to turn me into that sad a character.

Amen.

< Message edited by RealityLicks -- 2/8/2008 4:21:06 AM >

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RE: Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop - 2/8/2008 4:48:59 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Indigenous ie native Christians have been murdered in both Pakistan and Lebanon. Saudia Arabia at least forbids any outward manifestation of Christianity. I am not a Christian I just mention these facts.
Ongoing at the moment is a request to allow Muslims to broadcast a call to prayer 6 times a day, the first at dawn , probably twice on Friday for all I know. The broadcast apparently also includes aspects of the Islamic creed. Freedom of speech I suppose eh?

What Williams advocated is far in excess of the Beth Din and in fact what Muslims are currently allowed to do.

It took a  hundred years or more to break the lamentable stranglehold of organised religion on UK society In 50 years or so travel down the road to a multicultural society attempts are being made to reimpose that stranglehold

Our leaders need to wake up.
Williams's view shows the failure of common sense when cloaked in refined intellectual sensitivity.

I note middle classes soon put restrictions on immigration when their interests are threatend. No more non EU doctors allowed into the UK.
The hoi polloi can learn to listen at 6am to the muesli (sic) call to prayer.
Lots are up at that time either finishing the night shift or off to work anyway (irony rules OK )

yours in righteous indignation
seeks


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RE: Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop - 2/8/2008 5:02:10 AM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

Why has no similar reaction happened to the system of Orthodox Jewish Beth Din courts?  They already receive official recognition and have been ruling in just these sorts of cases for years and years.  No-one notices or even cares.  How come they aren't bringing about the end of "all we hold dear"?  Could it be a case of not getting the best silver out for the Browns?


Yes, I heard that too. I must say I had absolutely no idea this was going on; I wonder how many others had no idea too?

As I said in my first post, if people wish to adopt Sharia as far as it is compatible with our laws, then thats fine - but then given the compatibility there should be no reason to go to Sharia. And there yet remain the problems of primacy of law and the inequalities (as they are perceived at the very least) in how men and women are dealt with under Sharia.

Albeit I know little more than what is related to me through the media about Sharia, and the media tends to focus on the negative as we will see it. We all recognise that our system of law is not perfect - it greatly favours those with the means to access it, and often derives verdicts which seem irreconcilable with justice. Perhaps there may be aspects of Sharia from which we can learn, improve our system and help to negate the impression highlighted by Williams that some groups feel alienated from our system. This is something that needs investigation without knee jerk reactions.

And the instance of these Jewish courts also throws the whole matter into new debate. If its in order for the Jewish courts to operate and reach legally binding judgements, then it is wholly incongruous to maintain that another similar community may not also do the same, regardless of any of the concerns that have been raised. Under our law, rather curiously in this instance, we cannot have different laws for different people, which means that we cannot allow the Jewish courts to operate without also allowing the Sharia courts to operate.

I welcome further debate on this subject; are there any Jewish people in the house with knowledge of their system as it is being applied?

And I'll close with two more points. Yes, all these minorities in the UK make life difficult for us from time to time with this sort of thing - but their presence has also made the UK a far more tolerant place for we indigenous eccentric types too. If we wish to do things differently from the mainstream, we can accomplish this now with few of the issues we might have faced in the 1950s, and at least some (and I believe much) of the change in indigenous culture towards what might be viewed as eccentricities is down to us having had to adjust to immigrants' presence and their different ways. Where we have gone wrong though is in promoting our differences and not forming a new consensus, drawing on the identities and cultures of everyone here, as to what British is and means and does.

And in relation to Williams' comments - we have to put them in the context of his Church, which is butting heads with Islam in Africa, where also the main power base of his Church is now located. His motives may not be so easy to see as we might imagine at first. Yet he may have opened an important debate here.

E

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RE: Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop - 2/8/2008 7:26:56 AM   
seeksfemslave


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quote:

LadyE
Yes, all these minorities in the UK make life difficult for us from time to time with this sort of thing - but their presence has also made the UK a far more tolerant place for we indigenous eccentric types too.


Absolute nonsense.
Islamic philosophy is basically puritan restricive intolerant and of course patriarchal.
I'm sure you know what the penalty for apostasy is ?
I just cant recall the name but I know well the attitudes that many West Indian youth have towards homosexuals and towards Asians which feelings are reciprocated in spades lol.
Just remind me who the Kurds hate is it the Turks ?
Somalis....everybody seems to have it in for them.
The Greek Cypriots despise the Turkish Cypriots and vice versa.
Would I be right in saying that a Hindu is a Muslim's best friend.
Not to mention the increase in anti semitism that has been reported.

The list goes on...and on....and on...and on and the rose coloured spectacles are getting more and more use.


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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop - 2/8/2008 7:39:13 AM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		I think stereotypes are the problem, not the solution.

< Message edited by RealityLicks -- 2/8/2008 8:02:10 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 40
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