RE: Exactly Where I Suspected Global Warming Was Going ... (Full Version)

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atursvcMaam -> RE: Exactly Where I Suspected Global Warming Was Going ... (2/9/2008 2:56:56 PM)

      i might take your response a bit further, actually.  there are not enough people who care to raise development capital for a solution, nor are there enough willing and able to protect someone who proposes a solution for the environment, but tends to rock the boat for the capitalists around and about.  There would be a lot of money lost if fossil fuels were abandoned, or limited.
      Back in the 70's there was an oil shortage, in the 80's we were going to war over oil, and now we are suffering from runaway oil prices.  from a capitalist point of view it should be ripe to present a solution.  from a worker's point of view, Goodness, please don't lose me my job. 
       There is a design plan (ONLY ONE< Heaven forbid) that would resolve (actually only delay) the greenhouse gas effect.  The difficulty is the cost, and that the human input would be minimal versus the Universe's sense of humor and sense of balance.
        Would you care to quit swearing and cursing and pry open your wallet to slow greenhouse gases, but potentially open a whole new can of worms?
         When you are up to your ass in alligators it is difficult to remind yourself that the original plan was to drain the swamp.



Zensee -> RE: Exactly Where I Suspected Global Warming Was Going ... (2/9/2008 3:22:15 PM)

KenDckey - comparing Earth to the gas giants or Pluto is highly questionable, if not irelevent.

The moons of the giant planets are also warmed by tidal forces as they orbit. The same forces which maintain the molten core of the earth.

In the case of Triton, it is reaching the height of its summer. Changes to the atmosphere, due to normal warming, as well as changes to the surface (allowing it to absorb more sunlight) are most likley the causes of the temperature rise.

Pluto has a highly eccentric (eliptical) orbit and was closer to the sun than Neptune for a considerable time. A little bit from the article you linked to:

quote:

Though Pluto was closest to the Sun in 1989, a warming trend 13 years later does not surprise David Tholen, a University of Hawaii astronomer involved in the discovery."It takes time for materials to warm up and cool off, which is why the hottest part of the day on Earth is usually around 2 or 3 p.m. rather than local noon," Tholen said. "This warming trend on Pluto could easily last for another 13 years."


Mars has about 1% of the atmospheric pressure of earth and the variance over changes in altitude are amplified. Mars is also much smaller tha Earth etc etc. It's orbital period is about twice that of earths and it's orbit is also much more eleptical.

quote:

Mars' orbit is significantly elliptical. One result of this is a temperature variation of about 30 C at the subsolar point between aphelion and perihelion. This has a major influence on Mars' climate. While the average temperature on Mars is about 218 K (-55 C, -67 F), Martian surface temperatures range widely from as little as 140 K (-133 C, -207 F) at the winter pole to almost 300 K (27 C, 80 F) on the day side during summer.


Again, comparing them is a streeeeeeetch.

Venus is a case of the greenhouse effect from CO2, gone wild - but let's not dwell on that, shall we...

Try reading beyond the reporter's headlines and the occasional scientist's rhetorical references to "global warming" in popular discussions of planetary climatology.


Z.






caitlyn -> RE: Exactly Where I Suspected Global Warming Was Going ... (2/9/2008 4:03:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY
However, what Firm said and many others agree with is that those who seem most fervent in their belief do appear to have an agenda with regard to seizing power.  The book linked in the op looks as if it will just add fuel to the fire and lend "credence" to those who feel that the only way to combat global warming is to take control and make people do what they (the elite, experts or whatever you want to call them) believe is necessary. 

An authoritarian system with "them" as the authorities.


Every political issue, is an attempt to gain power by those without it, or an attempt to keep it by those that do.
 
This issue is no different. The global warming folks need to protect us from the evils of industry, that are destroying the planet ... and even if they aren't destroying the planet, then need to protect us, because they eventually will.
 
Their big industry opponents need to maintain power, because they need to protect us from the nut-cases that will destroy our economy. After all, they aren't "really" damaging the planet ... but either way, they will need all that money to solve to problem, just in case they accidentally are.



domiguy -> RE: Exactly Where I Suspected Global Warming Was Going ... (2/9/2008 4:20:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY
However, what Firm said and many others agree with is that those who seem most fervent in their belief do appear to have an agenda with regard to seizing power.  The book linked in the op looks as if it will just add fuel to the fire and lend "credence" to those who feel that the only way to combat global warming is to take control and make people do what they (the elite, experts or whatever you want to call them) believe is necessary. 

An authoritarian system with "them" as the authorities.


Every political issue, is an attempt to gain power by those without it, or an attempt to keep it by those that do.
 
This issue is no different. The global warming folks need to protect us from the evils of industry, that are destroying the planet ... and even if they aren't destroying the planet, then need to protect us, because they eventually will.
 
Their big industry opponents need to maintain power, because they need to protect us from the nut-cases that will destroy our economy. After all, they aren't "really" damaging the planet ... but either way, they will need all that money to solve to problem, just in case they accidentally are.


Why is it so hard to imagine that we might be able to have an affect on our climate?


It is difficult to ascertain...There would always be people who would doubt that fact that we could pollute a Great Lake to near extinction if they didn't witness it first hand....

Then new laws were instituted to reduce the pollutants....It was awful. Those fuckers with their political agendas...They cleaned up our water ways! Now we are faced with the "potentiality" of another crisis...Because this one is a little harder for you and I to confirm then it must be false...

It is soooooo ridiculous to assume the "Global Warming conspiracist's" Agendas are to ruin this economy....WTF! Maybe they are just actually concerned. What a ridiculous notion. All the scientists are out to get your suv's. Dopey logic.



heartcream -> RE: Exactly Where I Suspected Global Warming Was Going ... (2/9/2008 4:39:56 PM)

I only read a couple of posts to pick up the gist of what is going on here. I saw a cool program on TV called, "Deeper Shades of Green", I found it very informative and even uplifting. This link is a small idea of the show.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJX7ejAKsTg

The whole, "cradle to the cradle" line of thought, and design is really great too.

http://www.greenblue.org/cradle_vision.html



TheHeretic -> RE: Exactly Where I Suspected Global Warming Was Going ... (2/9/2008 4:50:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

Why do you think that because you read that the temps of this planet have changed in the past that this would not be accounted for in the model that scientists are looking at today?





       Because you can't build any kind of accurate model from a data-set of one, DG, and when the model builders throw out facts that don't fit the theory, the credibility goes even lower.  And I'm not reading numbers from right-wing websites.  What science I have is in geology.  I'm looking at the rocks and taking a long view.  Global warming alarmists don't find that data-set very helpful at all. 

       I'm all in favor of our species adopting more sustainable practices and pumping less crap into the air, water and soil.  Just because it's a good idea. Spare me the Chicken Little crap though, and the "it's all capitalism's fault, because it's baa-aaad" bullshit.  One of the selling points on the house I bought was a nice southern exposure for when I can afford to put on a solar-voltaic electrical generation array.  It is also on high ground, way above sea level, and convenient to the space-port.

      Maybe our use of the energy sources available to us has had an impact on the changes we are experiencing.  Should we have stayed in the caves?  Should we go back?

      As for the Negative Nancy's, with the "what are you going to do when" questions, I'm going to adapt, like everybody else who survives something that could just as easily happen if we all had zero carbon footprint.
     



Owner59 -> RE: Exactly Where I Suspected Global Warming Was Going ... (2/9/2008 5:03:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

"Non-Believers." Now where have we heard that term before?


I think "deniers", is a much better word.

It`s more accurate and has a nice ring to it.



popeye1250 -> RE: Exactly Where I Suspected Global Warming Was Going ... (2/9/2008 5:51:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY
However, what Firm said and many others agree with is that those who seem most fervent in their belief do appear to have an agenda with regard to seizing power.  The book linked in the op looks as if it will just add fuel to the fire and lend "credence" to those who feel that the only way to combat global warming is to take control and make people do what they (the elite, experts or whatever you want to call them) believe is necessary. 

An authoritarian system with "them" as the authorities.


Every political issue, is an attempt to gain power by those without it, or an attempt to keep it by those that do.
 
This issue is no different. The global warming folks need to protect us from the evils of industry, that are destroying the planet ... and even if they aren't destroying the planet, then need to protect us, because they eventually will.
 
Their big industry opponents need to maintain power, because they need to protect us from the nut-cases that will destroy our economy. After all, they aren't "really" damaging the planet ... but either way, they will need all that money to solve to problem, just in case they accidentally are.


All these "Outsourcing" deals disguised as "Free Trade" have already destroyed the economy.



heartcream -> RE: Exactly Where I Suspected Global Warming Was Going ... (2/9/2008 7:46:45 PM)

A couple of hours ago, a show was on TV about our water situation. The author, Maude Barlow who wrote, The Blue Covenant, was being interviewed. Very illuminating. Gotta love Public Broadcasting.

http://www.workingtv.com/blue-covenant.html

“Imagine a world in twenty years, in which no substantive progress has been made to provide basic wastewater service in the Third World, or to force industry and industrial agriculture production to stop polluting water systems, or to curb the mass movement of water by pipeline, tanker and other diversion, which will have created huge new swaths of desert."

“Desalination plants will ring the world’s oceans, many of them run by nuclear power; corporate nanotechnology will clean up sewage water and sell it to private utilities who will sell it back to us at a huge profit; the rich will drink only bottled water found in the few remote parts of the world left or sucked from the clouds by machines, while the poor die in increasing numbers. This is not science fiction. This is where the world is headed unless we change course.”

— Maude Barlow




atursvcMaam -> RE: Exactly Where I Suspected Global Warming Was Going ... (2/10/2008 2:23:24 AM)

          75 years ago, or so an island was found in the South Pacific, and was an interesting view climate and area for a tourism development.  However, on further examination it was the home of a number of cobras....That being the case, the scientists were called in, and one suggested, and it was agreed, that a several mating pairs of mongoose be released on the island.  this was done with the hopes that the mongoose (mongeese?) would control the cobra population.  20 years later, upon return to the island, the scientist noticed that the snake population was no more, but the island was now overrun by mongoose.  The only thing that had not been planned is, that with no natural predators on the island, there was no help for the snakes (now on the endangered species list) and the mongoose were destined to starve from having no primary food source.
         i don't take the problem lightly, but have more fears of the potential solutions.  Global warming was a factor which ended the ice ages, why should our point in time be any different? 
      



NorthernGent -> RE: Exactly Where I Suspected Global Warming Was Going ... (2/10/2008 3:00:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Every political issue, is an attempt to gain power by those without it, or an attempt to keep it by those that do.
 
This issue is no different. The global warming folks need to protect us from the evils of industry, that are destroying the planet ... and even if they aren't destroying the planet, then need to protect us, because they eventually will.
 
Their big industry opponents need to maintain power, because they need to protect us from the nut-cases that will destroy our economy. After all, they aren't "really" damaging the planet ... but either way, they will need all that money to solve to problem, just in case they accidentally are.



'Remember the good, old days when you and I couldn't agree on anything, Caitlyn?.....like those two days we spent arguing whether the world is round or square shaped?........those were the days, eh.......perhaps they'll return......either way, I'll have my memories....



kittinSol -> RE: Exactly Where I Suspected Global Warming Was Going ... (2/10/2008 5:53:41 AM)

There is a corporate agenda behind the theory that global warming is a fabrication. Big business is interested in making anybody who's trying to fight environmental damage look like 'lefty green party activists' - like people who throw molotov cocktails. BOOH! So... because global warming is a subject of contention, capitalists are using it to deride ALL environmental concerns.

Thankfully, lies don't fly anymore - when corporations realise there's more cash to be made from practising a sustainable industry (certainly there is, in the long run - but capital is concerned with short-term revenue only) they'll go back to their drawing-boards.

The stock market may find they can make global warming into a commodity. Who knows, then, how many people will be willing to buy into the idea [8|] .



LadyEllen -> RE: Exactly Where I Suspected Global Warming Was Going ... (2/10/2008 6:02:25 AM)

I'd argue that the operation of democracy (liberal or whatever) is the fundamental problem effecting all sorts of adverse consequences. The reason for this being, that the majority of the electorate lack the mental capacity to make informed choices in the first place.

However, any authoritarian system also presents problems in that acquiring power in a dictatorship does not require capacity for anything more than an understanding of the law of the jungle and a willingness to apply that understanding. Within a short time, it becomes a select clique of those who present the problems within democracy by virtue of their lack of mental capacity, who are running the show. Intellectuals who get in the way are the first against the wall - including such experts as might feel they ought to have authority to rule.

Democracy isnt ideal, but its probably the best system we have for producing the best possible systems for the greatest proportion of the people. In relation to the whole instance of climate change though, (assuming it is man made), few are going to vote for solutions which offer lesser living conditions, especially when they perceive some will not have to endure the same, by virtue of their wealth from profiting from the pollution in the first place.

The only way to bring about an environmental agenda which can succeed in democracy is to produce a whole shift in our energy sources and the efficiency of their use, such that living conditions are at least maintained. This however is clearly not in the interests of those who in our democracies tend to be the ones funding political campaigning, from the profits from polluting.

So perhaps we must reform our political systems in their funding, rather than the operation of democracy. By removing from influence those with the means to perpetuate that which should perhaps be changed, we can open the doors to change. The question then though, is whether we would all agree to public funding (that is, taxation) for political campaigning to allow that to occur? Again, not an ideal which is likely to attract widespread support and gain approval in a democratic system.

E



TheHeretic -> RE: Exactly Where I Suspected Global Warming Was Going ... (2/10/2008 9:02:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

we're not worried about killing all life on the planet we're worried about killing human life and more specifically human civilization.




       This is exactly the kind of Chicken Little bullshit that costs the global warming activists their credibility.

      Spell it out, Ken.  Give me your worst case scenario, and tell me how it means death for us all, and the end of civilization. 

         All you have are things that would force us to change and adapt.  I happen to believe that such challenges make us better.  Our species has been down to a population of maybe 5000 people with zero technology, and survived (that was probably a climate event also, not caused by us).



meatcleaver -> RE: Exactly Where I Suspected Global Warming Was Going ... (2/10/2008 9:39:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn


This issue is no different. The global warming folks need to protect us from the evils of industry, that are destroying the planet ... and even if they aren't destroying the planet, then need to protect us, because they eventually will.
 
Their big industry opponents need to maintain power, because they need to protect us from the nut-cases that will destroy our economy. After all, they aren't "really" damaging the planet ... but either way, they will need all that money to solve to problem, just in case they accidentally are.


You are cynical caitlyn. Personally I don't give a fuck about protecting people who don't believe we are creating climate change and despoiling the planet but I do give a fuck about them robbing future generations of a chance to live because of their greed or ignorance. It is not as though those that rubbish climate change are poor and oppressed and need what they exploit to survive, they don't, they don't even need most of what they have to live a meaningful and fullfilled life. Greed is the reason we are overharvesting the planet, changing the climate and in the process, condemning millions of innocent people to poverty.If their greed and ignorance didn't impact on others, they could eat their burgers and drive their gas-guzzlers until they drown in their own shit, I really wouldn't care. I am certainly not jealous of their shallow and meaningless lives.



meatcleaver -> RE: Exactly Where I Suspected Global Warming Was Going ... (2/10/2008 9:42:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

What's caused global warming? Capitalism and its irresponsibility towards natural resources. i.e. using the earth as if it is a free resource to harvest and pollute.

You high lighted authoritarianism as though there is an agenda by those that claim something needs to be done but capitalism has always been authoritarian to its victims. What has changed now, is that the winners of capitalism have to modify their behaviour or suffer the same conequences as its victims. This issue has nothing to do with liberal democracy or any other type of government, it has to do with realizing that the earth and its resources is not a free and renewable asset which people can exploit as much as they want regardless of the destruction they cause.


OK   So lets assume that you are correct that capitalism created global warming.   then why is it that the other planets in our solar system have temps raising at the same percentage rate as Earth.   How did capitalism do that?


Natural warming by such things as the solar cycle have all been factored in long ago and none of it fills the gap in the math but human activity.



DomKen -> RE: Exactly Where I Suspected Global Warming Was Going ... (2/10/2008 10:01:03 AM)

Maybe its too subtle for you.

If the ocean level rises by as little as 1 meter that would inundate the living space of some large fraction of the human population. All those people on the move would inevitably have serious repurcussions. The loss of all ports everywhere would seriously impact food and durable goos distribution. At the very least the civilization would be under enormous stress from this alone.

Now as the temp rises the areas where our staple food crops will shift toward the poles. You might find what has happened to winter wheat yields informative. Get out a map and locate where most food is grown today. Now shift all that production 100 miles toward the pole. That displaces how many farmers? How much arable land is lost due to there simply being less land available as you approach the poles. Remember to take into account Antarctica's real land area and not the size and shape of the ice caps. How many starve as food production is disrupted? How many die in wars as nations no longer able to feed their populations fight over those who can?

So the question becomes how much stress can human civilization take before it collapses? The human species might survive the collapse of this civilization but all that we have accomplished would be lost. And it isn't a sure thing the species would survive. The population bottleneck occured in what was apparently a quite diverse gene pool therefore we retained quite a lot of genetic diversity through the bottleneck. A new drastic bottleneck would quite likely result in a much less diverse gene pool due to the almost complete lack of diversity outside some African populations. This lack of diversity could very well be the final straw that would lead us into extinction

So ther worst case is a collapse of civilization and a return to the stone age or utter extinction. Pretty good reasons to reduce how many SUV's are on the road if you ask me.



caitlyn -> RE: Exactly Where I Suspected Global Warming Was Going ... (2/10/2008 10:01:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
'Remember the good, old days when you and I couldn't agree on anything, Caitlyn?.....like those two days we spent arguing whether the world is round or square shaped?........those were the days, eh.......perhaps they'll return......either way, I'll have my memories....


Well, it seems like a few people didn't get that I was actually trying to stick with FirmHanky's topic of politcal uses of these issues, and not focus on the issues themselves ... and you actually did get it. As much as I've screamed at you, within the guidelines of the TOS, you have always been worth debating with. [:D]
 
We can go back to music, just to bring back some memories.

Bravery ... most think they are a UK band, but they are actually from New York City.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5ZxQ8tnAG8

Silversun Pickups ... from Indiana, I think.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlsO-JSA2pc

I got to see Muse a while back ... un-be-fucking-leavable-awesome UK band!!!



NorthernGent -> RE: Exactly Where I Suspected Global Warming Was Going ... (2/10/2008 10:23:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

 As much as I've screamed at you, within the guidelines of the TOS, you have always been worth debating with. [:D]
 


The feeling's mutual, Caitlyn....not that I've ever screamed at you, but you get the point all the same....

A decent taste in music, too...you'll make someone a good woman...






caitlyn -> RE: Exactly Where I Suspected Global Warming Was Going ... (2/10/2008 10:35:01 AM)

Just as a friendly reminder, you're supposed to post a few back that I've never heard of ... so I can impress my friends. [;)]



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