RE: Before you Vote for Billary?

RE: Before you Vote for Billary? (Full Version)

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angelikaJ -> RE: Before you Vote for Billary? (2/10/2008 6:45:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subrob1967 quote: ORIGINAL: liketophoto How many people, particularly children have no health care? None... ANYONE in the U.S. can walk into ANY hospital in the U.S. and get treated, regardless if they can pay or not. I'm getting tired of the fallicy that everyone "needs" "health insurance" to get "health care", it's simply not true. A question for you "universal health" types... How many of you make a living working for free? More importantly, why do you feel that I need to help pay for your medical bills? I have my own bills to pay. Oh, people do that all the time. The hospital ER staff will treat you....and the cost of that will be a minimum of $500.00...where as a trip to the Dr would have been 1/5 of that. But Dr's like to be paid at the time of service. However.. say someone goes in due to severe pain and is diagnosed with a gallbladder attack...surgery is recommended...they might even send in a surgeon for a consult... adding to your bill. He concurs but does not deem it an emergency. That person, of course will never be able to afford to have the surgery. And since so many people have to use the hospital system to get their basic healthcare needs met because they can not afford basic preventative healthcare the cumalitive effects of that do eventually end up coming out of your pocket whether you are aware of it or not. Hospital rates are adjusted...in turn your insurance premiums get raised.

SugarMyChurro -> RE: Before you Vote for Billary? (2/10/2008 7:08:32 AM)
I think we need a pandemic like typhoid to hit again. Then people would realize two things about the human species: 1. There is no "us versus them." There is only us. You might live in an ivory citadel - but the cook, the maid and your chauffeur could get sick and then make you sick in turn. You are not safe. We are one. 2. A unified approach is the most sensible, economic approach to the problem. If you can afford more privately, more will always be available for a price - just as it is now. In the event of a pandemic it would be nice to know that everyone would get the necessary basic treatment because there is no true safety while even one person is sick and contagious among us. Plan ahead. Have a second plan too.

caitlyn -> RE: Before you Vote for Billary? (2/10/2008 10:10:15 AM)
Using systems in the UK or Canada as a benchmark for an American system, is pointless. We currently outspend those two nations by a vast margin, per-person. Clearly we should favor the current system that encourages the best doctors to specialize in elective surgery. [;)]

servantforuse -> RE: Before you Vote for Billary? (2/10/2008 1:15:23 PM)
The one who pays the bills (Government) will also decide what type of care you will get, when you will get it, and who you will be allowed to see for your care. This is a very bad idea...

LotusSong -> RE: Before you Vote for Billary? (2/10/2008 1:48:27 PM)
What I would like to see, is the renovation of insurances so that they are forbidden to cherry-pick their subscribers. Although I can pay for reasonable insurances (life and health) my medical condition is an automatic denial. I've worked in the insurance industry, I understand the rational.. but it still sucks for them to play God.

subrob1967 -> RE: Before you Vote for Billary? (2/10/2008 2:29:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LotusSong What I would like to see, is the renovation of insurances so that they are forbidden to cherry-pick their subscribers. Although I can pay for reasonable insurances (life and health) my medical condition is an automatic denial. I've worked in the insurance industry, I understand the rational.. but it still sucks for them to play God. Ok, you worked in the industry, so you know that you're not paying an insurance company for health, you're paying an insurance company to take a risk. They are not playing God, they are simply deciding whether or not your health is worth risking the company's assets on. There is also group insurance, and the law states that they can't "cherry pick" members of the group, it's an all or none proposition.

Griswold -> RE: Before you Vote for Billary? (2/10/2008 3:17:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: liketophoto How many people, particularly children have no health care? Don't quote me on this because I'm hardly an expert in this...but it's a surprisingly low number (although...growing). We keep hearing that it's "47 million Americans", but I'm told when you strip out people under 25 (who believe they'll live forever and therefore see no need...even as they end up using free services...or Mom and Dad for emergencies), people who when given a reasonable alternative (such as state aid) wherein which it's simply not cost effective for them to purchase it (because they already get it free by showing up at state agencies or ER's anyway)...it comes out something like 14 million folks. A little less than 5% of the American population. Now, granted, ER visits cost excessive amounts, and "they" suggest that things would be much cheaper (and I tend to agree) if everyone had basic health care (i.e., 5 visits a year just to "stay healthy" as opposed to going in when you're deathly ill....not at all unlike being more careful driving or changing your oil at reasonable distances so you avoid car damage as opposed to getting drunk and paying $3,500.00 for a bent 1/4 panel, or a new engine because your oil was like glue)...so it seems that a universal health system would be a good concept...and for those who believe that we'd have health care like all other socialist systems (we would)....keep in mind, American ingenuity will assure that anyone who wants to spend more...will get seen today, as opposed to waiting 6 months for a liver transpalnt.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Before you Vote for Billary? (2/10/2008 5:33:44 PM)
They may not have health care but they have cell phones, dsl, cable TV and Xbox. quote: ORIGINAL: liketophoto How many people, particularly children have no health care?

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Before you Vote for Billary? (2/10/2008 5:40:56 PM)
There is a larger need to reduce medical cost. Reduce the medical costs, and states can afford to run more Free Clinics. People get medical attention already, so I am not sure what all the urgency is about. I could do research and present an arguement why everyone that has babies should turn them over to the government to raise, so that it would reduce crimes, but why. quote: ORIGINAL: angelikaJ Ummmm folks who are anti- [universal] healthcare. There are countries besides England that have it....in fact we are the exception rather than the rule. And for most of the people who live in those countries it works very well. You aren't going to make pie with the few rotten apples in the bushell are you? How about instead of saying why it might not work, doing the research and see how it might actually be possible.

angelikaJ -> RE: Before you Vote for Billary? (2/10/2008 6:03:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf They may not have health care but they have cell phones, dsl, cable TV and Xbox. quote: ORIGINAL: liketophoto How many people, particularly children have no health care? That is a false generalisation.

bamabbwsub -> RE: Before you Vote for Billary? (2/10/2008 6:07:25 PM)
I won't be voting for Billary for a myriad of reasons (first and foremost, I believe she's just a downright dishonest person), although the other candidates don't seem a lot better to me, either. I firmly believe that our health care system needs to be revamped; however, I personally am against a government-run health care system. To me, a universal health care system would benefit people who need access to health care, but for those who require life-long and/or emergency treatment, it would be a disaster. A government-run system, with its endless roll of red tape and bean-counting, will only slow down any life-saving medical treatments that may be needed. Sure, anyone could walk into a hospital and get their broken bone put in a cast at no or a low cost, but when they developed a chronic condition like cancer, lupus, etc. that requires a long-term, expensive regimen of care, it would be up to the government to determine what benefits they receive and when. Personally, I don't want the government making those decisions for me, and especially to count on them doing it in a timely manner. If you're undecided about whether a universal health-care system is a good thing or a bad thing, take a look at the video and the article links below. The Video: A Short Course in Brain Surgery highlights the plight of an Ontario man with a cancerous brain tumor who crossed the border to the U.S. to get the medical care that is rationed in his home country. http://www.freemarketcure.com/brainsurgery.php Article: The Ugly Truth About Canadian Health Care http://www.city-journal.org/html/17_3_canadian_healthcare.html

angelikaJ -> RE: Before you Vote for Billary? (2/10/2008 6:11:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf There is a larger need to reduce medical cost. Reduce the medical costs, and states can afford to run more Free Clinics. People get medical attention already, so I am not sure what all the urgency is about. I could do research and present an arguement why everyone that has babies should turn them over to the government to raise, so that it would reduce crimes, but why. quote: ORIGINAL: angelikaJ Ummmm folks who are anti- [universal] healthcare. There are countries besides England that have it....in fact we are the exception rather than the rule. And for most of the people who live in those countries it works very well. You aren't going to make pie with the few rotten apples in the bushell are you? How about instead of saying why it might not work, doing the research and see how it might actually be possible. Lucky me: 2 Straw Man arguments in a row. Do we need to reduce the cost of healthcare? Certainly. In fact I think the goal of "universal healthcare" is to make healthcare more affordable to everyone across the boards.

angelikaJ -> RE: Before you Vote for Billary? (2/10/2008 6:22:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bamabbwsub Sure, anyone could walk into a hospital and get their broken bone put in a cast at no or a low cost, but when they developed a chronic condition like cancer, lupus, etc. that requires a long-term, expensive regimen of care, it would be up to the government to determine what benefits they receive and when. Personally, I don't want the government making those decisions for me, and especially to count on them doing it in a timely manner. If you're undecided about whether a universal health-care system is a good thing or a bad thing, take a look at the video and the article links below. The Video: A Short Course in Brain Surgery highlights the plight of an Ontario man with a cancerous brain tumor who crossed the border to the U.S. to get the medical care that is rationed in his home country. http://www.freemarketcure.com/brainsurgery.php Article: The Ugly Truth About Canadian Health Care http://www.city-journal.org/html/17_3_canadian_healthcare.html The thing is... the scenario you mention...it is that way now. You go into the ER for a broken bone...it get's fixed. You go into the ER w/ a chronic health condition they will manage your immediate symptoms with no follow-up care. They may give you the name and # for a specialist which you can't afford. If you have insurance and have a chronic condition you are usually assigned a case manager. I don't see how that would necessarily have to change. I have friends who live in Canada and have not had problems with their healthcare or access to services. And again...other countries besides England and Canada have some sort of healthcare provisions for their citizens.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Before you Vote for Billary? (2/10/2008 6:56:26 PM)
It is a generalization, but it is far from false. A very small percentage actually is so poor that they do not have at least one of the things I listed, but you know what, if they fall and break their leg they still get treated at the hospital. quote: ORIGINAL: angelikaJ quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf They may not have health care but they have cell phones, dsl, cable TV and Xbox. quote: ORIGINAL: liketophoto How many people, particularly children have no health care? That is a false generalisation.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Before you Vote for Billary? (2/10/2008 6:59:47 PM)
The government does not make costs go down when they handle something. If the government outsourced it maybe, but even then there will be looting instead of just pure waste. Just like how Medicare causes huge price increases. Also, I asked why do we need Universal Health care, and you never answered. I truly would like to see the points as to why we need it. quote: ORIGINAL: angelikaJ Lucky me: 2 Straw Man arguments in a row. Do we need to reduce the cost of healthcare? Certainly. In fact I think the goal of "universal healthcare" is to make healthcare more affordable to everyone across the boards.

caitlyn -> RE: Before you Vote for Billary? (2/10/2008 11:26:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf It is a generalization, but it is far from false. A very small percentage actually is so poor that they do not have at least one of the things I listed, but you know what, if they fall and break their leg they still get treated at the hospital. Actually, there are legions of homeless and runaway children that have none of those things, and no healthcare. If you are a runaway, and God only knows what you are running away from ... if you go for care, guess what they will do after they give it to you? Thats right, they turn you over to the police, who will send you back to what you were running from in the first place ... or, perhaps even somewhere worse. But, just for the sake of argument, lets all pretend you are right ... which you aren't, but we can pretend ... and the percentage is very small. Why then, do we have such a hard time providing something to such a small percentage? Seems a simple question. I will also take a stab at why we need universal healthcare, managed by the government (with emphasis on the word managed). Public health passes the test of promoting the common good, etc ... Private insurance companies, using our health to turn a profit, is only promoting the common evil. I see the conduct of private insurance companies, roughly on par with traders in slaves, corporations using child labor working 16 hour shifts in coal mines, or people trading Small-pox infested blankets to American Indians. The latter three ran their course and are now black marks on American history. Time to put "your health for profit" in the same dark museum.

meatcleaver -> RE: Before you Vote for Billary? (2/11/2008 12:08:41 AM)
Britain's healthcare system with all its problems is still way way better than the American system and it costs half of what the American systems costs. The French and German systems which are absolutely the tops are still something like 30% cheaper than the American system. My brother lives in the US and for all the things he loves about America, he thinks the America health system is absolute crap, corrupt and excessively exspensive. It insists you have treatment (include needless tests in this etc.) when you don't need it to get money out of your pocket and refuses you treatment when you desperately need it to save the insurance companies money. The one reason he won't give up his British passport and keeps up his National Insurance payments in Britain is because of the healthcare issue. He's a complete hypocrite but at least a honest one.

hermione83 -> RE: Before you Vote for Billary? (2/11/2008 2:27:54 AM)
I'd give anything to live in a country like Canada and have their health care... Australia isn't as good, but I used to live there and there's was 100000000000x better than here. I don't know about England, but not being able to afford to go to the ER when I'm dying can't be worse than anything. That's the #1 reason I want Hillary so much.

hermione83 -> RE: Before you Vote for Billary? (2/11/2008 2:33:55 AM)
What are you people talking about? I have a chronic illness, and I can't get treatment. I order medicines from India that are probably fake. It's all I can afford. What do you mean, about hospitals? Sure, I could wait 8 hours and get seen for three minutes there, and then get 2,000 bill that I would have to pay, and considering that I don't have 2k to my name, my credit would be ruined, and I would be out on the streets. So no, I can't go. I've suffered through life-threatening things doing nothing, and praying that I would make it. And I can't get regular health care, blood testing, medications, injections, etc, and I don't qualify for medicaid. You can't be poorer than me, so I don't know how anyone qualifies...

hermione83 -> RE: Before you Vote for Billary? (2/11/2008 2:35:29 AM)
And actually with all the rumors about how great county hospitals are, this one here makes you prepay before you check in or get lab work done. There might be additional bills, but they make sure you pay everything that they know it will cost for anything, x-rays etc, before, or you can't have anything done. I've been there personally. My dad even works in that hospital, they don't care... The U.S. doesn't give a crap whether I live or die or anyone else...

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